SHOOTERS SHORTS ONE-EYED JACK!

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BDR
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Re: Rip off...

Post by BDR »

Rich wrote:It doesn't take long to figure out what places are on the "up and up".
... and that's the trick — you have to figure out who's worth working with and who's not. That's for the band members to decide.

In this particular case, I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time feeling bad when there were only 15 people at this show. A bar cannot survive with 15 patrons on a Saturday night.

People really need to keep in mind that when a bar books you on a Saturday — their gravy night — they passed up all other bands and booked you. They're gambling the rent on your ability to produce a money-spending, drinking crowd. If things tank and there's no room to work with the club, you probably won't be asked back.

r:>)
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SpellboundByMetal
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Post by SpellboundByMetal »

Just out of curiousity...is there a "down and down"?
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Re: Rip off...

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BadDazeRob wrote:
Rich wrote:It doesn't take long to figure out what places are on the "up and up".
... and that's the trick — you have to figure out who's worth working with and who's not. That's for the band members to decide.

In this particular case, I'm sorry, but I'm having a hard time feeling bad when there were only 15 people at this show. A bar cannot survive with 15 patrons on a Saturday night.

People really need to keep in mind that when a bar books you on a Saturday — their gravy night — they passed up all other bands and booked you. They're gambling the rent on your ability to produce a money-spending, drinking crowd. If things tank and there's no room to work with the club, you probably won't be asked back.

r:>)
I'm gonna drop this whole matter Rob. It is simply time to move on although I am pleased that it did spark some valuable discussion. Some more background for you first though...

1. The name of the place is Shooter's Bar & Grill and is located on Route 220S in Potomac Park, MD. You are more than welcome to call them and book your band whenever you please. Be forewarned that on a Saturday night, which is race night at the Allegany County Fairgrounds which is walking distance from the bar (about 1/4 to 1/2 mi), this particular bar as well as the Cresaptown Eagles club are deader than a mortuary because most of the patrons at both establishments patronize the races.

2. I totally disagree with your premise that a band must provide the crowd. There's no way you can make me see the logic in that statement. I simply cannot understand it. As I see things it would be equivalent to asking a cook to provide people to eat his food, or a bartender to attract drinkers to the bar.

3. Saturday night is NOT their gravy night, but you weren't aware of the circumstances so you wouldn't have known. Actually because of the races, Saturday is now a totally dead night, if anything, for them.

Mods are welcome to lock this thread or delete it if they so wish. I'm certainly done stating my peace here on the matter. I have a lot of energy that I will focus on learning, writing, and performing music to entertain the people that attend our shows.
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Post by SpellboundByMetal »

Bands sorta do have to provide the crowd, man. Its called a "following".
I mean, yeah...the normal drunks that are @ the bar anyway dont count as fans or a following. BDRob is right on a band taking a gamble. They wanna have a band bring people out to drink and shit. If the band has a following....people will come out to see them for sure...thus making the bar AND band happy. 15 people in the crowd...id say be happy with the $150.
I would! It wasnt a killer night there...so the bar cant give you EVERYTHING. that would be wrong of you to ask the bar for every penny they brought in that night. I mean...they did book you...and you DIDNT bring a crowd...did you? no...be happy with the $150...you didnt get fucked like you think. Im sure if you had brought a crowd.....it would have been a better night for you. :wink:
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Shooter...

Post by Rich »

Spellbound.... I guess it would depend on what "position" :shock: you were in!! To answer your question of a "down and down" :D
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Re: Rip off...

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Ray Wagner wrote:Be forewarned that on a Saturday night, which is race night at the Allegany County Fairgrounds which is walking distance from the bar (about 1/4 to 1/2 mi), this particular bar as well as the Cresaptown Eagles club are deader than a mortuary because most of the patrons at both establishments patronize the races.
OK, so there's more to the story. Cool. We play a place near Punxy that's minutes from a race track and they pretty much close up shop to live entertainment during racing season because it has the same affect on their business. I guess what I'd say to that is, knowing that the place is going to be dead, why book it during race season in the first place?
Ray Wagner wrote:2. I totally disagree with your premise that a band must provide the crowd. There's no way you can make me see the logic in that statement. I simply cannot understand it. As I see things it would be equivalent to asking a cook to provide people to eat his food, or a bartender to attract drinkers to the bar.
My point is not that a band is exclusively responsible for providing a crowd but you do, at the very least, share that responsibility with the club. You can't expect financial reward from a club if you're product or marketing efforts aren't driving numbers in an upward direction. We spend our own money on advertising at times when it's necessary.

As far as your cook analogy goes, the way I see it, the cook does ahve a responsibility to provide a product that brings business in. If the food is good, the word will spread and his reputation will draw customers. If the food sucks or if the public is unaware of the quality of the food, people will go elsewhere.

Same with bartenders. My wife tends four nights a week and, as a matter of fact, it is her responsibility to bring in drinkers. She can speak more intelligently on this topic, but I'll tell you, I know she's had situations in the past where other fellow bartenders resented her for having better nights than they have. Have you ever gone to a bar where the service/bartenders suck? I have, and you know what? I stop going.
Ray Wagner wrote:Mods are welcome to lock this thread or delete it if they so wish. I'm certainly done stating my peace here on the matter. I have a lot of energy that I will focus on learning, writing, and performing music to entertain the people that attend our shows.
I'd ask that Ron and JP leave this thread up. There's no flaming going on here, just some sharing of insight. I feel discussions like this are vital, especially when more than one viewpoint is being expressed. I definitely learn from discussions like this. I personally add insight to threads like this to hopefully inspire thought in others.

r:>)
Last edited by BDR on Tuesday May 08, 2007, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Ray Wagner »

"My point is not that a band is exclusively responsible for providing a crowd but you do, at the very least, share that responsibility with the club. You can't expect financial reward from a club if you're product or marketing efforts aren't driving numbers in an upward direction. We spend our own money on advertising at times when it's necessary. "

We do a significant amount of marketing. I usually post 20-25 flyers within a 15-25 mi radius of the club we're playing at the beginning of the week. We advertised this gig and the night before at the Cumberland Democrat Club on GO106 Thursday and Friday. We also gave away 10 free passes to the shows on GO106 that week as well. Our bass player made about a half dozen 18x12 posters for the engagement. Sometimes you're going to have a bad night regardless of the most valiant marketing efforts.

We're certainly not at the level many of the bands are that participate on this board. We've only been in existance since March and the Shooters gig was like our fifth job as a group. We've done very well at the Cumberland Democrat Club and at Dunagan's in Mt Savage and we're just now starting to get back a positive buzz from other club owners and club goers. I'm certainly willing to write this off as a hiccup, put it behind us and move on.
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Post by BDR »

Ray Wagner wrote:We're certainly not at the level many of the bands are that participate on this board. We've only been in existance since March and the Shooters gig was like our fifth job as a group. We've done very well at the Cumberland Democrat Club and at Dunagan's in Mt Savage and we're just now starting to get back a positive buzz from other club owners and club goers. I'm certainly willing to write this off as a hiccup, put it behind us and move on.
... and that's really the attitude you have to take at this stage of your band's young life. I think that most "veterans" on this board will tell you, the most important tool of the trade when building a rep, a following, is patience. It sucks, I know, but it sucks for everyone. Reward comes when you keep things in perspective and keep plugging away.

I think my initial point in this thread was that waging a campaign against a club over a matter of a few dollars is suicide for your band. Be patient and good things will come your way.

r:>)
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Post by Ray Wagner »

BadDazeRob wrote:
Ray Wagner wrote:We're certainly not at the level many of the bands are that participate on this board. We've only been in existance since March and the Shooters gig was like our fifth job as a group. We've done very well at the Cumberland Democrat Club and at Dunagan's in Mt Savage and we're just now starting to get back a positive buzz from other club owners and club goers. I'm certainly willing to write this off as a hiccup, put it behind us and move on.
... and that's really the attitude you have to take at this stage of your band's young life. I think that most "veterans" on this board will tell you, the most important tool of the trade when building a rep, a following, is patience. It sucks, I know, but it sucks for everyone. Reward comes when you keep things in perspective and keep plugging away.

I tihnk my initial point in this thread was that waging a campaign against a club over a matter of a few dollars is suicide for your band. Be patient and good things will come your way.

r:>)
Understood Rob. Honestly I'm constantly struggling with the fact that this band is an entity to itself. I have been playing music in this area since 1983 and my 'music career' is probably older than a lot of the forumites that participate on this board. Our bass player is "Grateful Ted" McGreevy who has been playing in bands locally since he was 16. I've played in so many bands in Western MD and have been on the receiving end of bad deals that it is frustrating and irritating beyond belief and I get tired of hearing "thems the breaks". Every once in a while, whether it's for my own interest or another musician's, I feel I have to take an active stance and say "this is not right and we shouldn't have to take it". While being ill-chosen and/or ill-timed, this was one of those times.
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Post by BDR »

It's cool and honestly, I'm really not trying to bust your balls on this situation, I'm just playing devil's advocate and hopefully giving you more to think about before you make the decision to potentially black list yourself.

If there's anything I've learned in this scene, it's that sometimes, things don't work out the way you'd have them work out. A while back, we had the 5-0 set up a checkpoint 1/2 mile away from the venue we were supposed to be playing that night and, even though the club promised us X-amount of cash, we had to realize that maybe the club was going to take the worse beating than we would if we just chalk it up as a lost evening.

With each situation, you have to qualify what value you put in the venue and react accordingly. In the instance cited above, we decided it would be more important to cancel the show and save the guy's ass that night than demand payment in full. This guy actually ended up giving us some money for our trouble that night which bought us some MTOs and we preserved a good business relationship.

If, in the big picture, you see Shooters as having the potential for becoming a good venue for your group, then my advice would be to accept the circumstances as they are.
Ray Wagner wrote:Honestly I'm constantly struggling with the fact that this band is an entity to itself.
I hear you. It's tough to swallow, when you've put the years in, to start a new project and not get the instant gratification we're all looking for, but the reality is, new band=square one.

You seem like an intelligent dude. The fact that you can listen to another point of view and not get pissed speaks volumes to me about your character and I feel pretty confident that you'll make a good choice in this situation.

r:>)
Last edited by BDR on Tuesday May 08, 2007, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Ray Wagner »

We have tried to counter the new band=fresh start syndrome by promoting the individuals of the band over the band name per se. The fact that I played in "Revenge" and "Bottom Line" prior to creating this project, Aaron Kerr was in "Junkyard Dogs", and Ted was in "The Johnsons" for many years helps to bring people out.


In all honestly the few people that were there Saturday night were there because we brought them out and they didn't catch us the night before at the Demo Club. Bottom line is only 3 or 4 of the patrons there that night were "regulars" which doesn't speak well of the bar and the business they do. The owner, Donna, has had this bar up on the block for at least six months I am told and is looking to get out of it for the right price. I can see why.
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Post by bassist_25 »

It's been in my experience that promoting individuals because of their prior reputations doesn't really work all that well. I've seen many local players try to ride their past successes, and they usually just look washed up by doing that. I know that I'm repeating something here that I've said in a prior thread, but I use to think that if you threw a bunch of good players into a room or on a stage, then good music will come out of it. I've since learned that isn't the case, and if a band is a success, that intangible chemistry is something that can't always be replicated in subsequent projects. Each project has to stand on its own merit. If promoting individual players helps get a few bodies through the door, then by all means plug away; but remember, the band has to live up to its hype. Rarely do I ever see that happen.

Personally, I think that a club that doesn't have a huge regular clientele is a good thing. Why? Because if a club has a bunch of regulars who will be there anyways, then why shell out the money for a quality band when Shit Band X or We Just Got our Squier Starter Packs from Musician's Friend Last Week Band Y will suffice? Clubs hire bands to bring in people that otherwise wouldn't be there, pure and simple. In my experience, most clubs will be willing to pay whatever amount of money it takes if the bottom line justifies the initial cost. Someone once told me that once you start playing licensced venues, then it means that you're in the liquor business. I've found that to be true. I don't bullshit myself into thinking that a club hires us because they really dig us or believe in our music. The fact is that I know I can still get all of those instrinsic rewards of playing music and being on stage (I'm an introvert, but I honestly love being on stage in front of people more than anything in the world) while still being realistic about what other people expect of me. It's all about keeping things in perspective.

I think that I really digressed from the point with that last paragraph. LOL Anyways, I think that this is a really good thread, and I'm enjoying reading everyone's opinions on things.
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Post by DrumAndDestroy »

BadDazeRob, you are a man of infinite knowledge, along with some others on this board. I'm glad a young guy like me has people like you to share this kind of info...
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Post by BDR »

DrumAndDestroy wrote:BadDazeRob, you are a man of infinite knowledge, along with some others on this board. I'm glad a young guy like me has people like you to share this kind of info...
Now that's funny right there ... :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hey, I just try, just like anybody else, to apply life experience to current situations. I'm certainly not the end all on any topic, but if I think my opinion can help, I'll offer it.

As always, people can choose to read it and consider it or flush it.

r:>)
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Post by MeYatch »

I can think of plenty of instances where a band is not expected to provide a following, but is still essentially required in order to stay in buisiness. I'm mainly thinking of tourist attractions, vacation spots, cruise lines, that type of deal. I'll wager that robthedrummer probably played to mostly fresh faces every night out west.

just playing a little more devil's advocate.
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Post by DirtySanchez »

MeYatch wrote:
just playing a little more devil's advocate.
Will you guys leave the Devil out of this, you're killing his street cred.
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Post by Victor Synn »

Just to add a little into this, I know of Ray and his band through their guitarist Aaron, who frequents our shows both in the MD/WV area and in Altoona. I can attest to the fact that they do a lot to promote the band to others in their area. Aaron is always telling me and the HF1 crew what all is going on with his band anytime we meet up with him. Just seems like you guys got a raw deal. Doesn't make you a shitty band, nor does it make the club a shitty club. Just like Rob said, with the knowledge you have now about shooters, book all your gigs there in the late fall and on till early spring, if you even decide to try it out again there. Good case in point to that is us and Seven Springs resort. We got a sweet deal playing there for a weekend every couple months or so. However, unless there is a concert up there that will involve 80's music of some kind, we only plan to book there between November and mid-March...ski season. That way, it works out for all involved. Not just us, but the bar, as well as Dean at DataSound and Jodi, our light man, who travel from Maryland to get there. Just keep at it. If you maintain a good reputation, it makes clubs more wary of trying to take money from you based on your notoriety and it will only help you land other clubs if one does try to soak you.
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Post by ToonaRockGuy »

Just a thought, and someone may have brought this up before, but with Scream, we provide our own doorman/security man. It's a deal breaker. If you (the bar) won't let us provide our own doorman to collect the money, then we don't play, simple as that. That way, if the owner backs out of the flat rate, we've still got the door to pay overhead fees.
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Post by RamRod 1 »

we provide our own doorman/security man.
I'll bet that also cuts down on the bar doin a little cheaten too!
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