SHOOTERS SHORTS ONE-EYED JACK!

[Ray Wagner]

I'll keep this brief but I do want to post a notice of warning to all bands in the local area. DO NOT contract with Shooter's Bar & Grill. We played there April 28th. The crowd was smallish, maybe 12-15 people tops. Nonetheless management did not ask us to end the show early and we actually played a little bit over our contracted time.

The original agreement was for $150 plus what was collected at the door. HOWEVER at the end of the night when I went to collect the money, I was told by the bartender that Bobby told her to pay us only $150. We have never contracted a show for $150 and we never will. That amount of money for a three hour show from a four piece band is well below scale for present day.

While I do realize that this is not nearly the magnitude of injustice that happened with "Drive" last easter at the E-Z Way, it is still an injustice. A bar owner should be honorable enough to pay up in full on an agreement, period. While it was only a matter of $60-75 that still made the difference between us going home with $50 for the night and not going home with $50 for the night.

Again, I appeal to all musicians in the area to refuse contracting with Shooter's Bar & Grill for the next 120 days. We have shown in the past that we can support each other in efforts to achieve fairness & equity and I ask for your support in this again.

[Ray Wagner]

I would also ask that any bands that would like to take a more active role in supporting our cause place the image below on their website or MySpace page as a show of support. I've included the HTML code below it so you can simply cut and paste! Thanks to all those who are willing to take an active stance against unfair trade practices and to those who choose not to, at least spread the word about. Even talking about it can help!



Don't support bars that use unfair trade practices!"

[lonewolf]

Ray, I'm sorry you got shorted, but it doesn't seem anywhere near bad enough to start a public campaign against the bar. I think I can speak for many on Rockpage that have had much, much worse experiences, told the story here and let it go as a warning for all.

[Ray Wagner]

Lonewolf: I honestly don't doubt that there have been far worse experiences as I have been on the short end of many in my 24 years of performing. I'm certainly not demanding that every band should actively participate. I'll leave that to each individual's discretion. What I am asking is that everyone that reads this talks about it with their bandmates and other bands and discusses it at length, because we all know that the way many of the bar and clubs deal with musicians is a problem that needs to be addressed.

[lonewolf]

Yep, that's reasonable and to be expected.

For a minute, it looked like you were going on a major PR campaign complete with LOGO and jingle coming soon...

[RamRod 1]

Yeah that stinks!........An agreement is an agreement!

[Ray Wagner]

You would think RamRod 1, but to many bar owners an agreement is an agreement as long as it makes $$$ sense to them. Down our way, the E-Z Way Inn was another such establishment that earned a reputation for rooking bands out of money, and I think there was or is a place in Bedford called The Warehouse that was playing similar games.

[RamRod 1]

And then there's the Johnstown Brewing Co. We were there 2 years ago and the guy wanted us to make him a deal after the 1st set. There were still people there requesting songs and people coming in. It was the day before "Mothers Day" and the place had 2 floors packed serving dinners. Now think about the "bucks" that he had taken in. He still wanted to send us home early on a $225 gig.

[Ray Wagner]

Another place that used to shaft bands around here was the Java Club. If you had a good night crowdwise the owner would give your four or five dates at whatever price you wanted. The first bad night you would have there, you'd be screwed on the rest of the dates. It wouldn't be so bad if he came back to you and said something like, let's talk about about these other dates, adjust prices, etc. but what he would do is wait until like 2 or 3 days before a gig then cancel you! Not only would you lose out on that date that had been in your book for a couple of months, but you'd also have almost no chance and filling the date on such short notice.

[BassFinger]

That sucks! I wish there was a solution.

[Ray Wagner]

There is to an extent. It starts with sharing stories about clubs that have shafted you over and then identifying clubs that always treat bands poorly. Follow that up with a loose verbal agreement amongst bands in that local area to not contract with that club to protest their treatment and trust me you WILL get positive results.

[bassist_25]

With all due respect, should you get paid full amount if you tank one night? I personally would be embarrased getting paid in full if only twelve people were at my show, and I would not expect the club owner to pay me in full. If the club owner really were trying to shaft you, then wouldn't he have given you the door, which would have been much less than $150, even with a $5 cover?

I'm not saying that you're in the wrong or that the club's in the wrong. I wasn't there; I didn't book the show; therefore, I'm not qualified to comment on all of the details. I'm just saying that if you play a place, have 200 people there, and the money doesn't add up at the end, then it's probably safe to say the owner's a crook. If you play to furniture, and the club owner keeps the $60 to help pay the light bill for the month because you tanked, then I wouldn't go on a crusade about it.

Just my .02 cents.

[Ray Wagner]

That's cool. I appreciate your point of view. However, my argument lies in the fact that the management of the establishment agreed to pay us $150 PLUS THE DOOR, paid us $150, then proceeded to LIE about the initial agreement saying that we had only booked the gig for $150 and no door money was involved. Had they approached us at ANY time during the night and said, "Guys we're really dead here tonight how about we cut a deal and you cut out early" we probably would have agreed to it. I consider the situation tantamount to working a salary + commission job. Let's say your selling for Coca-Cola and getting a wk salary of $1500 + 2% commission on sales and say you have a bad month and your manager decides not to give you your commission check because you did so poorly. How fair is that?

[bassist_25]

Ahh, I understand your point now. We had a similar situation happen to us at a club in Lewistown where the owner split and the bartender tried to pay us the door take when the original agreement was a flat rate for the night. Needless to say, we don't play there anymore. Though I've heard through the grapevine than many people up that way ask about us, which brings a smile to my face knowing that someone who tried to fuck us is losing potential money.

p.s. I'd sell Coca-Cola for $1500 a week!

[Ray Wagner]

Thanks for understanding. I doubt that we'll be playing at Shooter's anymore, especially taking into consideration this 'informational campaign'. But the least we can do is warn other bands about this and encourage the musical community to take a stand against such treatment.

[BDR]

Yeah, I'd lose the logo ... that's bad karma, there.

I've read this thread a few times since it went up last week, and it does suck getting less than or none of the cash your were expecting at the end of the night, but I gotta say, you openly admit there were only a few people in attendance on the night in question. I can't see going on a campaign to sully the name of a club or a club owner over a few dollars when you obviously didn't deliver the goods, keeping in mind they gave you the agreed upon "base pay."

It's part of a band's responsibility to attract business and help make the cash register ring. If you don't, sometimes you have to renegotiate at the end of the night as a show of good faith to the club and other clubs for that matter (club owners talk to each other, you know). If it were our band and only 15 people maximum turned out (and we were talking about the few dollars you're talking about) I'd be inclined to suck it up and try again for a better result next time. Believe me, the club owner's expenses for the bad evening far outweigh yours, I can guarantee you that.

BTW, how many are in your band? Four? Five? We're talking about $18.75 apiece if you're a four piece, $15 for a five piece and so on. Not very much cash to hang a club out to dry and potentially get your band black listed.

We had a similar situation happen to us at a club in Lewistown where the owner split and the bartender tried to pay us the door take when the original agreement was a flat rate for the night. Needless to say, we don't play there anymore.

The big difference here is that Lewistown club (at which, according to recent news reports, you can apparently buy your cocaine right at the bar ... LOL) was crowded each time we played there, including that last night, and the people were buying a ton of liquor that night, as usual. We always played for a flat rate up until that last night when the owner tried to pull the "tell-the-band-one-thing-and-the-bartender-another-thing" deal-e-o. The "door" we were given that last night didn't even add up to half of what it should've been if you did the math on the number of people in the building. If we would've gotten the actual door that night, we would've made more than the agreed upon flat rate — but as it turned out we were a few $100 short of the flat rate (until I demanded the rest, which, BTW, the bartender ended up giving us).

It’s a much different scenario than what Mr. Wagner is talking about.

We, like many others on this board, have been burnt before on cash. Club Car Café, Halloween 2003, comes to mind. JP can attest to the fact that there were many, many bodies in the joint that night (I believe that party still holds the attendance record up there), there was an agreed upon flat rate for the night and we still have yet to receive a dime of the $800 we were promised in writing for that show. However, if they don’t pay, your options are to either go to the trouble and expense of filing a judgement with the magisterial district judge (and hope you win) or put out the warning and move on. We went with Option B.

In that case, it turned out that we were only one of about 50 bands that got ƒü©ked for money up there and they eventually stopped having bands altogether after the bad press backlash (and also because bands spread the word among bands and refused to play there).

Read all about it

Most times, when you get hosed for $$$, it’s best to just take it as a lesson learned. If you think a room will work out for you in the end, there's nothing wrong with helping a bar out on the money by understanding that they got hosed for the evening. However, if you "delivered the goods," then you deserve to get the $$$.

One more thing: To what Shooters are you referring? I’m personally aware of three clubs in the region named, “Shooters.” Can’t avoid booking the place if you’re not more specific ...

r:>)

[DATASOUND]

Just two thoughts.

Lets see, a band agrees to play a club for a set price of (lets say) $200. The club makes $500 on the door and also makes 4x that on the register. The club has a great night. Do they pay you more then $200 at the end of the night??? (Answer) NO. So why take a cut if they have a bad night??

If some one makes a deal with a Radio or TV Station to advertise their business, in hopes to bring in more money, and it doesn't. The Radio or TV Station WONT take a cut in pay for the services already provided. So why should a band.

[HurricaneBob]

Boy, is it just me or did i look really young in Robs read all about it link to 2003......

[DirtySanchez]

$150.00 divided by 15 people tops (I'll give you the benefit of doubt) = ten bucks per person. If 200 people showed would you expect Two grand flat? Sometimes you just need to take one on the chin for a bad show.
Bands are hired with the understanding you'll bring a crowd, not entertain people who would already be there spending money. I'm not intentionally busting your balls here, but dude there were only 15 people there.

I would have been talking to the owner about cutting him a break before he even mentioned anything. That way when you do get those 200 ppl. shows you can negotiate for more. I'm not siding with the club completely on this as I don't know there side of the story, all I know is your side, and I personally would have handled it differently. That's all.

[Rich]

Just "caughting up" on this post.... Isn't the "Haus" a great place? We got caught up in that "Flat rate/door" crap!!! She's ALL about the $$$! That's why we stopped playing there. We actually "witnessed" them counting out 3 stacks of cash. Then they tried to give us the "short" one TWICE!!! And witnessed some "pocketing" while the counting was going on. But we kinda knew something was going on. So we had some one with a counter stand at the door. That way we actually knew what we should have been payed.... As soon as that argument came about we got our $$$.

It doesn't take long to figure out what places are on the "up and up".

[bassist_25]

Just "caughting up" on this post.... Isn't the "Haus" a great place? We got caught up in that "Flat rate/door" crap!!! She's ALL about the $$$! That's why we stopped playing there. We actually "witnessed" them counting out 3 stacks of cash. Then they tried to give us the "short" one TWICE!!! And witnessed some "pocketing" while the counting was going on. But we kinda knew something was going on. So we had some one with a counter stand at the door. That way we actually knew what we should have been payed.... As soon as that argument came about we got our $$$.

It doesn't take long to figure out what places are on the "up and up".

Good to hear that we weren't the only ones who had that happen. It's a shame too, because it's a really cool room with a really cool crowd. What they tried to hand us would have barely covered our production costs for the night.

[Rich]

But the funny thing about was, we actually saw it happening. It was kinda like, "Hey, what the hell are they doing?" One for this stack, one for this stack and one for this stack. Wait, and one for my pocket. And then try to deny it. Usually it was the door person or the owner, if she was there. The bartenders where always cool there. And treated us very well... I guess if your not "hot tubbing" with the right crew in there, you don't mean anything....

[RamRod 1]

I agree with DATASOUND.

Lets see, a band agrees to play a club for a set price of (lets say) $200. The club makes $500 on the door and also makes 4x that on the register. The club has a great night. Do they pay you more then $200 at the end of the night??? (Answer) NO. So why take a cut if they have a bad night??

[BDR]

Just two thoughts.

Lets see, a band agrees to play a club for a set price of (lets say) $200. The club makes $500 on the door and also makes 4x that on the register. The club has a great night. Do they pay you more then $200 at the end of the night??? (Answer) NO.

It's been our experience over the years at clubs where we've built a good business relationship with the owner/manager that with great nights come rewards and in many instances, that reward is financial. It's not been an uncommon occurrance for us to walk out of a joint with more than we were initially promised because the place went nuts and the owner/manager recognized it. On the other hand, we've taken a financial hit on different occassions over the years when we had the "15 people in the crowd night" and the bartenders are scratching their asses.

Of course, not every club is gonna operate like this but I've always been a firm believer that if you scratch someone's back, they'll scratch yours in most scenarios.

So why take a cut if they have a bad night??

I guess the question you have to ask yourself when the club has a bad night and asks for a break is, "How bad do we want to work with this particular venue?" If it's not worth your time to play there then demand your full money and piss all over the relationship. It's your call. Just remember there are 50 other bands that would play in your stead and gladly take the money hit just to get the chance to play in front of those 15 people.

r:>)

[BDR]

Boy, is it just me or did i look really young in Robs read all about it link to 2003......

Yeah, young and extremely sexy ... ... not that you're not sexy these days, just in more of a silver fox sort of way ...

r:>)