paying opening bands?

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bassist_25
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Post by bassist_25 »

VENTGtr wrote:Think it also needs pointed out that just because you get paid doesn't mean you like/love, etc. doing this any less than someone who is willing to play for free. To the contrary, I've found that, more often than not, people who approach this as a business of sorts expect more of themselves than those who don't. Not saying that's always the case, but in general.
Thank you!!! I feel priviledged that I do what I do. The fact that I know that the pay checks of the bar owner, managers, and wait staff are contingent upon what I do on a given night is something that I take seriously. Contrary to some of the strawman arguments that people have thrown up in the past, I never claimed that I was a great bass player nor that my band's the best (though I have called old sKool one of the best guitarists in Central PA). I don't have a rockstar attitude. Instead, I have a Been there, done that, got the T-shirt attitude, which may seem arrogant to people who don't quite understand the difference yet. When I say something like, "There's a reason why there's a $700 difference between a Mesa/Boogie Traditional cab and a Behringer cab," it's something I have experience with. Some people don't like what I have to say, and that's fine. What I won't do is blow smoke about something when I have no clue what I'm talking about. But didn't mean to go off on that tangent... ;)

But back to the original post - I just cannot fathom a cover band that always hires an opener because they don't have enough material to fill an entire night. Seriously, it shouldn't take a group of seasoned players more than two months at the most to be fully gig-ready. Bad Daze was already an established gigging band by the time I joined. I think that I had two and a half weeks to learn their entire set list - minus about five songs that I already knew from previous projects - and then I was out playing my first gig. Obviously, it wasn't perfect, and there were a few song sections I had to "fake" until I had more time to learn them correctly. I think that I had a month and a half to learn 70+ songs when I filled in with Plush this summer. I had one rehershal and I was playing a gig the next night. Again, it wasn't perfect, but tightness with new musicians doesn't happen over night. My point is that I just cannot understand why it is so hard to learn 45 songs to play an entire show. Unless these bands are covering Dream Theater and Yes, it shouldn't be that difficult.
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RobTheDrummer
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Post by RobTheDrummer »

Someone said something about egos or rockstar attitudes attributing to the opener not getting paid. I think it's the other way around. If you are starting out and trying to get your foot in the door, you have a huge ego to think that you should get paid. I've played a ton of shows and got no pay, but I didn't care. Why change what is normally practiced by all bands in the area, just because a few think it's unfair? It's not unfair at all. You should be thankful that the headliner band lets you play with them to begin with. On top of that, if you don't think it's fair, you don't have to open for anyone. Get your demo kits made up, get the word out and put on your own fuckin show biatches!!! :D
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MeYatch
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Post by MeYatch »

bassist_25 wrote:I think that at the heart of this disagreement is a difference in scenes and philosophies. The all-original scene is different, because clubs don't hire bands to play 45 minute sets. Bands have to play with each other, so yes, they should split procedes.
The only thing left to discuss is original bands opening for cover bands, or cover bands opening for original bands.
Stand back, I like to rock out.
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SpellboundByMetal
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Post by SpellboundByMetal »

I don't see a problem there.
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Post by Drum-Wolf »

CASH, GAS, GRASS, FOOD, or ASS(not necessarily in that order). NOBODY should play for free UNLESS it's a legitimate benefit for a just cause OR for someone in need OR to play for a Very Important Person (or Persons) for exposure OR just to have fun if that happens to be the case. I don't know, call me crazy, I prefer to get paid. And I agree with the person who wrote that an opening band should at least get gas money regardless of the situation if money is in fact involved.
I've drank enough beer to float a battleship! Go ahead and Rock & Roll all night if you can but don't party every day!
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Post by witchhunt »

I agree with Drum-Wolf. I don't play for free. Like he said, a benefit is one thing. I'm not totally heartless. Private parties are a possibility also, cause the band is usually treated like royalty. The way I look at it is if the bar owner's making money, I should be too. I can say that age has influenced my thoughts on the subject. When I was 17-18, I would have played anywhere at any time. Not anymore. Don't get me wrong. The three or so hours that you're actually playing is about as much fun as you can have. It's just all the other crap that goes with it. If I could show up at a gig at 9:50, play three sets and mingle during breaks, then leave at 1:00, it would be different. I'd still like to be paid, though.
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Post by Colton »

Well, theres a few kinds of people.. People who just have to get paid or its not worth their time, and people who just love every second of playing, and would play free the rest of their lives just to keep it going. I'm in the latter.

As for opening bands, I'd take any opening gig I could as long as it was going to be a decent show, regardless of cash. The only time I'm ever happy is when I'm playing, so I take every opportunity. If youre good, youll get your own paid shows, dont fritter away over openings.

Openers can work out for you, you never know. One time pnEumatic drove to johnstown to open up for lost ledney, and their drummer broke his arm (again) while skating, and we played the whole night and got the cha-ching for doing it.


Now dont take this the wrong way, but id just love to take every single person in the world who wont play without getting paid and invite them all to a cruise then sink the goddamn ship. If youre only doing it to get paid, and youre not just doing it to have fun, get a fucking job and pawn that guitar.

I guess theres only one way to take that.



But thats just how i am, i guess...
Laugh if you want to, really is kinda funny, 'cause the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.
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witchhunt
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Post by witchhunt »

Your opinion is cool with me. I just want to say I have a fucking job, I won't pawn my bass cause I still have fun playing at home (for free), and if you're inviting me to a free cruise, I'll pass. Cheers.
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Post by mjb »

i too am the latter.
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MeYatch
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Post by MeYatch »

I think if it came right down to it, we would all play for free. But you aren't supposed to let anyone know....
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Post by Punkinhead »

Colton wrote:Well, theres a few kinds of people.. People who just have to get paid or its not worth their time, and people who just love every second of playing, and would play free the rest of their lives just to keep it going. I'm in the latter.
Agreed. But that is just for me only. If I'm in a band, I want at least gas money and free food/drinks. I'm not paying to play (meaning drinks and the drive) if someone else makes some loot off my ass.
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Colton
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Post by Colton »

Yeah, i wouldnt buy that ticket....

I dont hate people for what they do, i just hate the train of thought.. its never personal
Laugh if you want to, really is kinda funny, 'cause the world is a car and you're the crash test dummy.
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VENTGtr
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Post by VENTGtr »

Exactly what Paul said.

I have a friend in Lexington, KY I've known him all my life. Have seen him
go from a really good drummer to, probably, the best not named Peart, Calhoun
or Morgenstein I've ever seen. Studied with a jazz player in Germany, etc.

His band practiced over 6 months working on 10 songs before they started
trying to find an opening slot (Ironically, when they did, the bass player popped
a low E. They used most of their stage time borrowing a bass from one of the other
bands. POPPED A LOW E! All on tape. Was hysterical).

Anyway, the stuff they were doing wasn't super-high-technique stuff. Same Tool,
A.I.C., etc. that a lot of people play out after one practice

I couldn't imagine that and he still is completely stunned that you plow through a
couple of practices, do a show, and are playing 40 songs a night and it goes great.

May not always be perfect but you get way better, way tighter and way faster playing
out than in many practices. That in and of itself may be the value of scoring an
opening slot.

They're doing original stuff now but sill only play 10-12 songs a night and getting
paid. Things are just different in different places.

Something else I'd add for people who "play for free" and have no care about
getting paid. When you're the one putting up money for the ads to get people
there, paying and maintaining a site, paying to get signs printed, traveling to
book shows, spending time on the phone booking (All time you could be spending
with your family, etc.) the one who maintains the gear, et al, you'd like to be compensated
for your craft rather than being bankrupt by it. And not paid in big jars of bar pickles (That's
for Brian o' Plush if he's reading).

Even for those who think of it only from an "artistic" standpoint, if yer the most artistic
bricklayer in town, do you put down walkways in everyone's yard at your own
expense? If so...please come to my house.
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Post by Banned »

Why is "job" such a dirty word? It seems like we're conditioned to hate our jobs and only love our hobbies. Screw that. That's a sure-fire road to a miserable life. Here's my deep philosophical Zen advice: Find something that you love, then find a way to support yourself doing it.

And even if your music is "just a job", man what a job! Music is like sex. When it's great, it's really great. But even when you're having a bad night, it's still pretty damn good. And even when you're just going through the motions, it's still pretty damn good. So the worst case scenario is still pretty damn good.

As far as opening bands go, I think my only expectation on either end of the stick is that the headliners treat the openers with some kind of respect. I've been in bands where people see openers as a chance to throw their weight around and act like big dogs. That's bullshit.
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VENTGtr
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Post by VENTGtr »

Right on.

BTW, I just visited Jimi Hatt's site last week. If you've never done so, it's very cool
and you should.

I'm considering having another child just so I can buy him/her a baby gas mask.
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AtoMikEnRtiA
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Post by AtoMikEnRtiA »

yeah, JimiHatt[dot]com is very nicely done... love the post about the Spinal Tap VW commercial hahahahaha!
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songsmith
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Post by songsmith »

VENTGtr wrote:
I couldn't imagine that and he still is completely stunned that you plow through a
couple of practices, do a show, and are playing 40 songs a night and it goes great.

May not always be perfect but you get way better, way tighter and way faster playing
out than in many practices. That in and of itself may be the value of scoring an
opening slot.

.
Excellent point that I always touch on when I can. My first few bands practiced to the Nth degree... it was metal, and you had to exectute or it sounds like ass... and the Top 40-style country line-dance stuff I played for awhile was the same, it had to be note-for-note so people could do their little dances, but I've since been more seat-of-the-pants about it. The bands I was in with TJKelly were that way... he'd book a show way sooner than I would have, and suddenly we had a goal with a deadline and worked much harder to achieve it. In addition, the pressure of not having every note preplanned keeps you sharp. I always get much better onstage than in the woodshed, however, the woodshed is still a necessity, especially for the first 5 or 10 years of your career.
I'm fortunate to have friends who allow me to sit-in with their bands, and I work out live onstage. I live a very good life, when it comes to my musical peers and mentors, and how they allow me access to my craft.
Anyway, nothing beats good ol' onstage clock-time. Look at the Hurricanes... obviously, they're good, and have a sort of ESP onstage, but jeez, as many thousands of hours as they've spent onstage working hundreds of gigs a year, I'd expect nothing less. I do about a hundred gigs a year in different projects and guest stuff, and I'm exhausted... they just keep chugging.
Anyway, great point, and sorry about the hijack.------>JMS
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Post by Drum-Wolf »

Jimi Hatt wrote:
And even if your music is "just a job", man what a job! Music is like sex. When it's great, it's really great. But even when you're having a bad night, it's still pretty damn good. And even when you're just going through the motions, it's still pretty damn good. So the worst case scenario is still pretty damn good.
YEAH MAN!!!! You hit the nail on the "hatt", oh, I mean "head".
"Get the show on....GET PAID!"
I've drank enough beer to float a battleship! Go ahead and Rock & Roll all night if you can but don't party every day!
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bassist_25
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Post by bassist_25 »

Jimi Hatt wrote:Why is "job" such a dirty word? It seems like we're conditioned to hate our jobs and only love our hobbies. Screw that. That's a sure-fire road to a miserable life. Here's my deep philosophical Zen advice: Find something that you love, then find a way to support yourself doing it.

And even if your music is "just a job", man what a job! Music is like sex. When it's great, it's really great. But even when you're having a bad night, it's still pretty damn good. And even when you're just going through the motions, it's still pretty damn good. So the worst case scenario is still pretty damn good.
Post. of. the. year!

(and none too soon, since we only have a few days left of '06 ;) )

I agree with you 100%, Jimi, though I usually do. And speaking of the term "job," do people still call a gig a job? My pops is old school, and whenever he would leave on a Saturday night, he was leaving to go on a band job. I don't see any negative connotations with that word. There's been times when I said, "Well, when I went into work on Saturday night...," and the people have asked me where I work. I then tell them I'm a musician.

I don't believe in any of this purposely suffering for your art stuff. It's all pretentious bullshit, IMHO. The music biz is a kick in the nads (or ovaries if your female) anyway you slice it. I love art - and you probably won't find many people who are as opinioned about art as myself - but I don't have time for the artsy-fartsies.
As far as opening bands go, I think my only expectation on either end of the stick is that the headliners treat the openers with some kind of respect. I've been in bands where people see openers as a chance to throw their weight around and act like big dogs. That's bullshit.
Agreed also, but believe it or not, I've have the reverse happen. I've been in the headlining band and someone in the opening band had a primadonna attitude.

...don't worry about the hijack Johnny; I dug your post.
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Post by Hal »

Mackovyak wrote:I've always tried to give whoever opened something. Of course, I don't have openers much anymore as I keep falling back to opener status with each new state!
Who opened for you??
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Post by Mistress_DB »

very well phrased Jimi.

What's the old saying.... find a job you love and you'll never work a day in your life.
The person below me enjoys a good spanking.
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RobTheDrummer
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Post by RobTheDrummer »

Another point I would like to make: Why should the band that worked for the gig have to pay out of thier pockets to pay for an opener? Also, If openers are booked by the club, then the club should deal with their pay. Sometimes clubs book openers, then what, you are forced to pay them even though you didn't book them? That's not right. You work until you can get yourself a paying gig, period.
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Post by songsmith »

Good point. Also: by extension of the same reasoning, if the opener gets a booking from the show by opening, don't they then owe the headliner a fee? Booking agents get from 10-20%, so it'd be fair to expect a cut from every gig the opener played at that club thereafter. Business is business.---->JMS
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