Good luck dudes
Little help from the bands that are gigging
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drums=life
- Gold Member
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- Joined: Friday Apr 23, 2004
- Location: South Jersey / Philly
How bad do you suck if you don't completely suck? There's a big price difference between the two
YES This is true, However, clubs would Rather Book a Sucky band than a Good Band cause of the price and it comes down to this How much do you want to play? so Good bands are having to drop there price considerably just to get a Gig or sit at home, SO it's a double edge blade
YES This is true, However, clubs would Rather Book a Sucky band than a Good Band cause of the price and it comes down to this How much do you want to play? so Good bands are having to drop there price considerably just to get a Gig or sit at home, SO it's a double edge blade
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bassist_25
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6815
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: Indiana
Wow, this thread is some crazified funk.
There's no secret formula on how to set a price for your band. Each project is different. Attributes of the band are going to help set price, and of course, the goals of the musicians are also a huge factor. An all original band is going to make less (at least starting out) than a top 40 cover band. I know that I'm stating the obvious here, but there are other factors to take into consideration.
The biggest determining factor of how we set our price is the cost and availability of production. We have to make a certain amount in order to cover our costs plus make a profit. Sometimes we may charge Club A less than Club B, but we'll actually end up making more per man at Club A because inhouse sound is provided there, whereas we have to hire an engineer for Club B. Apparently you own your own PA, so you're at an advantage there. I wish someone in my band owned a medium-sized PA. We would have a much wider choice of rooms to play then. If I were in a new band that owned its own PA, I wouldn't think twice of booking rooms for $250 - $300. That's pretty good starting pay there.
I hate to echo what everyone's been saying, but making a good amount of money doesn't happpen over night. I'm finally starting to become happy with what we're making, but it took three years to get there (and I wasn't around for the first "dues paying" year when the guys were playing BOTB's at The G-man, and opening for Deviance at Dogherty's). But of course, this all comes around the time when I have to put in a butt-plug because we're all getting ass raped at the gas pumps, so am I really making anymore than I was last year? You're also going to see less money at the end of the night because you're 5 piece. Clubs don't take into consideration whether you're 3 piece or 8 piece. They're going to pay a certain amount based on how good you are at bringing/maintaining a crowd. When taking money into consideration, I probably wouldn't join a 5 piece, unless it featured some really killer musicians that I wanted to play with.
But the main question - What to charge when calling up a club for the first time? Well, I think that all of the points in this post help determine that. Is inhouse production provided at the venue? Do you own your own PA? Does anyone in the area know who you are? Does the bar have its own already established pay policy (i.e. set amount for new bands, play for the door, etc.)? Negotiations are all about power. If you appear weak in a negotiation, you're going to get taken. But it's a fine line, because you can't appear arrogant too. What bargaining chips are you bringing to the table? That's the question you really have to ask yourself. Now's a very important time in your band's history. Make as many friends as possible. I think some opening slots are going to have to be played before you can guarantee anything to club owners.
There's no secret formula on how to set a price for your band. Each project is different. Attributes of the band are going to help set price, and of course, the goals of the musicians are also a huge factor. An all original band is going to make less (at least starting out) than a top 40 cover band. I know that I'm stating the obvious here, but there are other factors to take into consideration.
The biggest determining factor of how we set our price is the cost and availability of production. We have to make a certain amount in order to cover our costs plus make a profit. Sometimes we may charge Club A less than Club B, but we'll actually end up making more per man at Club A because inhouse sound is provided there, whereas we have to hire an engineer for Club B. Apparently you own your own PA, so you're at an advantage there. I wish someone in my band owned a medium-sized PA. We would have a much wider choice of rooms to play then. If I were in a new band that owned its own PA, I wouldn't think twice of booking rooms for $250 - $300. That's pretty good starting pay there.
I hate to echo what everyone's been saying, but making a good amount of money doesn't happpen over night. I'm finally starting to become happy with what we're making, but it took three years to get there (and I wasn't around for the first "dues paying" year when the guys were playing BOTB's at The G-man, and opening for Deviance at Dogherty's). But of course, this all comes around the time when I have to put in a butt-plug because we're all getting ass raped at the gas pumps, so am I really making anymore than I was last year? You're also going to see less money at the end of the night because you're 5 piece. Clubs don't take into consideration whether you're 3 piece or 8 piece. They're going to pay a certain amount based on how good you are at bringing/maintaining a crowd. When taking money into consideration, I probably wouldn't join a 5 piece, unless it featured some really killer musicians that I wanted to play with.
But the main question - What to charge when calling up a club for the first time? Well, I think that all of the points in this post help determine that. Is inhouse production provided at the venue? Do you own your own PA? Does anyone in the area know who you are? Does the bar have its own already established pay policy (i.e. set amount for new bands, play for the door, etc.)? Negotiations are all about power. If you appear weak in a negotiation, you're going to get taken. But it's a fine line, because you can't appear arrogant too. What bargaining chips are you bringing to the table? That's the question you really have to ask yourself. Now's a very important time in your band's history. Make as many friends as possible. I think some opening slots are going to have to be played before you can guarantee anything to club owners.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
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JeffLeeper
- Gold Member
- Posts: 284
- Joined: Friday Jul 30, 2004
- Location: Tyrone Area
- Contact:
bux
I'm kinda like Mr. Hurricane.
Been doing this for many years, and I'll guarantee I didn't start out making a good buck.
I played lots of free gigs.
Be patient. Don't expect it over night, and you'll be ok.
Just enjoy playing for a while. The crowds can tell. The owners can tell.
Later on, you'll enjoy the money.
Been doing this for many years, and I'll guarantee I didn't start out making a good buck.
I played lots of free gigs.
Be patient. Don't expect it over night, and you'll be ok.
Just enjoy playing for a while. The crowds can tell. The owners can tell.
Later on, you'll enjoy the money.
Jeff
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paulwunder
- Active Member
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Tuesday Sep 13, 2005
- Location: Baltimore MD
- Contact:
It seems to me that the bars are all about screwing the bands out of every dollar they can.
If you're trying to get your name out, money is the last thing you should be worried about.
play for gas money or for nothing at all untill you build up a following.
after you get a following, start to concentrate on trying to break even.
after you start breaking even, concentrate on trying to make a profit.
Pay your dues!!
don’t care how much I make, I have a real job,
Well fuckin put bob, that about sums it up man. We all have to do shows for 50 bux and like it, believe me im not in this for the money, cuz there aint none when you start bro. Love of music and the fans who come see us, thats why we do it
was never for the money, and it never will be, unless I quit my day job to do this stuff. That would be a dream
DON'T LISTEN TO ANY OF THIS BULLSHIT! If you buy into this you're doomed. The second you leave your basement and start charging for your art you are in a business. The above attitudes KILL ART. If YOU value your art at ZERO...that's what it's worth.
If you're trying to get your name out, money is the last thing you should be worried about.
play for gas money or for nothing at all untill you build up a following.
after you get a following, start to concentrate on trying to break even.
after you start breaking even, concentrate on trying to make a profit.
Pay your dues!!
don’t care how much I make, I have a real job,
Well fuckin put bob, that about sums it up man. We all have to do shows for 50 bux and like it, believe me im not in this for the money, cuz there aint none when you start bro. Love of music and the fans who come see us, thats why we do it
was never for the money, and it never will be, unless I quit my day job to do this stuff. That would be a dream
DON'T LISTEN TO ANY OF THIS BULLSHIT! If you buy into this you're doomed. The second you leave your basement and start charging for your art you are in a business. The above attitudes KILL ART. If YOU value your art at ZERO...that's what it's worth.
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HurricaneBob
- AA Member
- Posts: 2790
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: /root/2/pub
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Learning to Quote is an art by itself also...paulwunder wrote:It seems to me that the bars are all about screwing the bands out of every dollar they can.
If you're trying to get your name out, money is the last thing you should be worried about.
play for gas money or for nothing at all untill you build up a following.
after you get a following, start to concentrate on trying to break even.
after you start breaking even, concentrate on trying to make a profit.
Pay your dues!!
don’t care how much I make, I have a real job,
Well fuckin put bob, that about sums it up man. We all have to do shows for 50 bux and like it, believe me im not in this for the money, cuz there aint none when you start bro. Love of music and the fans who come see us, thats why we do it
was never for the money, and it never will be, unless I quit my day job to do this stuff. That would be a dream
DON'T LISTEN TO ANY OF THIS BULLSHIT! If you buy into this you're doomed. The second you leave your basement and start charging for your art you are in a business. The above attitudes KILL ART. If YOU value your art at ZERO...that's what it's worth.
Plus it helps clarify what the fuck your talking about.
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HurricaneBob
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lonewolf
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There ya go...charging for your art again, Bobby! Better watch out or you might be in business!Hurricane wrote:I just started painting 6 months ago, i have a whole collection and im heading to a museum to sell them. $50 grand for all!
I Wunder if ill get it?
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time...
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brokenstrings
- Gold Member
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- Joined: Monday Jan 30, 2006
- Location: Altoona
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I'm basically tired of this whole conversation.Hurricane wrote:I just started painting 6 months ago, i have a whole collection and im heading to a museum to sell them. $50 grand for all!
I Wunder if ill get it?
but do you honestly believe that just because a band hasn't been around for two years, that they are worthless?
How's about everybody here that thinks we aren't worth a fuck come to the warehouse in bedford august 12th, and then tell us we are worthless?
What do they tell you about ASS-U-ME - ing?
Stand back, I like to rock out.
"You know...I would love to be able to have a multi-band marathon type weekend."
"If I knew how to organize it so that all bands get paid and we make a little money, I would."
Unfortunately, these things only seem to happen when someone in the music community passes away. The tribute to Baker was a great day and
a really fitting honouring of a great guy. I think that pushing the music scene and helped rising bands/talent in a similar way would be a terrific ongoing tribute to him, and everyone who've worked on this area, and the entire region.
A thought:
Rather than monetary pay for THAT day, a guarantee of a show(s) in the future for everyone who played would be great. Maybe call it a "C-PA Rocks Day" or something and have it on a Sunday from, 1-10.
Maybe even make it a once a season thing (Once a month, great as it would be, might become a little too "regular", but who knows).
Maybe a small cover (2-3 Bucks) to pay a sound guy or something. Though radio support might be lacking, there might be something.
Gantdaily.com is based out of Clearfield. I mentioned them in another
post and think they'd be more than happy to give a push. Could even
see if they'd sponsor. Why radio stations wouldn't maul each other to sponsor would be beyond me.
I'd also add this. I've played a long time and do understand the idea of "paying dues" and think there’s some good advice on here regarding. However, no one can say that things are the same as they once were. I know in the late 80s and through the 90s there were a lot of places I'd play that would be packed. Now, many don't even have bands
and when they do and there are just a few people they consider it a good night. If everyone here were just starting out and under the same "constraints" for lack of a better word, these forums would be much emptier.
I've had several band-mates, with incredible talent, just say it's not worth it anymore. Playing and not really making it worth their while (Money-wise and in their minds) just takes its toll. Travelling to practices, to play, the time involved with practices, trying to find REPLACEMENTS for people, working around work and family scheds, etc.
If you missed the "Salad Days" and are getting into it at a bit older age, or
are younger and just starting out, I can definitely see where it would take
more heart to see a new project through. Cripes, it's hard no matter how
long you've done it.
Granted, I still play but that might just be a lack of intelligence on my part.
Seeing so many guys on here, like Ken from Echo Chamber, so often
trying to find people with whom to work but still doing it? I have a lot of respect for that and am glad to know that with the current state of things, they're still working and putting together something good.
I hope when thing shape back up and these guys and those who come after are doing great hey consider giving 4 or 5 old clowns an opening spot.
Later.
"If I knew how to organize it so that all bands get paid and we make a little money, I would."
Unfortunately, these things only seem to happen when someone in the music community passes away. The tribute to Baker was a great day and
a really fitting honouring of a great guy. I think that pushing the music scene and helped rising bands/talent in a similar way would be a terrific ongoing tribute to him, and everyone who've worked on this area, and the entire region.
A thought:
Rather than monetary pay for THAT day, a guarantee of a show(s) in the future for everyone who played would be great. Maybe call it a "C-PA Rocks Day" or something and have it on a Sunday from, 1-10.
Maybe even make it a once a season thing (Once a month, great as it would be, might become a little too "regular", but who knows).
Maybe a small cover (2-3 Bucks) to pay a sound guy or something. Though radio support might be lacking, there might be something.
Gantdaily.com is based out of Clearfield. I mentioned them in another
post and think they'd be more than happy to give a push. Could even
see if they'd sponsor. Why radio stations wouldn't maul each other to sponsor would be beyond me.
I'd also add this. I've played a long time and do understand the idea of "paying dues" and think there’s some good advice on here regarding. However, no one can say that things are the same as they once were. I know in the late 80s and through the 90s there were a lot of places I'd play that would be packed. Now, many don't even have bands
and when they do and there are just a few people they consider it a good night. If everyone here were just starting out and under the same "constraints" for lack of a better word, these forums would be much emptier.
I've had several band-mates, with incredible talent, just say it's not worth it anymore. Playing and not really making it worth their while (Money-wise and in their minds) just takes its toll. Travelling to practices, to play, the time involved with practices, trying to find REPLACEMENTS for people, working around work and family scheds, etc.
If you missed the "Salad Days" and are getting into it at a bit older age, or
are younger and just starting out, I can definitely see where it would take
more heart to see a new project through. Cripes, it's hard no matter how
long you've done it.
Granted, I still play but that might just be a lack of intelligence on my part.
Seeing so many guys on here, like Ken from Echo Chamber, so often
trying to find people with whom to work but still doing it? I have a lot of respect for that and am glad to know that with the current state of things, they're still working and putting together something good.
I hope when thing shape back up and these guys and those who come after are doing great hey consider giving 4 or 5 old clowns an opening spot.
Later.
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brokenstrings
- Gold Member
- Posts: 172
- Joined: Monday Jan 30, 2006
- Location: Altoona
- Contact:
There is no doubt that Echo Chamber is the new kid on the block here, and were not the most experienced band. Seriously, I use this site for nothing other than information to improve the efficiency of what im attempting to accomplish. That is to make our band as successful as possible and possibly help a musician or two out along the way. I would hope that the people on this site with years upon years of experience would lend a hand. Quoted time after time "Bands have to sick together." Most of you guys are great. The others (you know who you are) who are stuck playing the same shitty gigs time and time again need to just sit in the isles when someone is actually trying to use this site for what its intended for, helping bands.
I dont care what you play, i dont care if you suck, i will help anyone out if i have the answer to their question. If not, i shut up. So if your just gonna be a dick, please dont post when im talking about shitty top 40 cover band related issues.
I dont care what you play, i dont care if you suck, i will help anyone out if i have the answer to their question. If not, i shut up. So if your just gonna be a dick, please dont post when im talking about shitty top 40 cover band related issues.
"Seriously, I use this site for nothing other than information to improve the efficiency of what im attempting to accomplish. That is to make our band as successful as possible and possibly help a musician or two out along the way."
Very cool. Though don't forget the entertainment value!
BTW, really like the original tunes. Hope to see you guys playing live some time.
DaveP.
Very cool. Though don't forget the entertainment value!
BTW, really like the original tunes. Hope to see you guys playing live some time.
DaveP.
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wiskerbisket
- Gold Member
- Posts: 223
- Joined: Tuesday Dec 10, 2002
- Location: Lewistown,Pa.
- Contact:
i love the boobie effect! 
Im just here to make sure everyone is still ...sane!
http://www.wiskerbisket.com
http://www.myspace.com/wiskerbisket
http://www.wiskerbisket.com
http://www.myspace.com/wiskerbisket
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brokenstrings
- Gold Member
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- Joined: Monday Jan 30, 2006
- Location: Altoona
- Contact:
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Mistress_DB
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 606
- Joined: Sunday Jan 23, 2005
- Location: In dire need of a spanking
Every well known band out there has paid their dues in some form or another. Check out the history on some of your favorite bands. Many of them busted their asses for years in shithole clubs for next to nothing before they got lucky and made it.
The only ones who haven't had to pay their dues are 1. the manufactured boy bands who can't even play an instrument. 2. the 15/16 year old chic built like Playmate of the year who's marketed on her looks alone. 3. The rich kids who's parents basically bought them a recording contract.
The only ones who haven't had to pay their dues are 1. the manufactured boy bands who can't even play an instrument. 2. the 15/16 year old chic built like Playmate of the year who's marketed on her looks alone. 3. The rich kids who's parents basically bought them a recording contract.
The person below me enjoys a good spanking.
BrokenStrings,
No prob. Like I said, very cool tunes and it's great that you guys worked
and found people who were right for the project and are into what you're
doing.
For everyone else, I don't think they put up a post and said "How can we
make more money and not go through all the crap everyone else has?".
Dude asked a simple, very valid question that clearly has no easy answer
(No I'm not interested in any venemous back and forths, just pointing out
a fact).
Believe me, I've done my share of shows where you travel REALLY far and
find out the place didn't advertise and you're taking the door so you lose yer keister after paying the sound guy, played for free to get into a place, et al. Granted those are all part of the famed "Dues" and make for great stories as you sit around reminiscing, but I think a major point of these discussions is to help each other out.
HOENSETLY, I have no idea what say at a lot of places when booking. It depends on the place, their capacity, etc., how long you've been around (YOU may be really well known to a bar owner, the new band may be a totally unknown quantity).
I like small places as much as big and am willing to work with bar/club
owners, especially if it's a place that is cool to bands and has them on a
fairly regular basis.
In addition to playing, I've been self-employed doing graphic design, Internet setups, etc. If you're discussing doing work for someone you know can't afford what you normally charge but it's something you'd like to
do for whatever reason, you make some concessions as you see fit.
Some places have a set guideline of however much and the door. If you're
new and can swing sound, that might work great. If you're going to be at a
loss (No one's doing this as an internship and should be able to make a little money), either look around, maybe do a couple of opening spots, etc.
As with other topics here, I think input from bar owners would be useful.
What do YOU pay a new band? If you're a reasonable distance from them
why not offer up E.C. a show and discuss some pay possibilities (Not out
here inpublic of course, it's none of our business). Point is, this is a terrific
forum and having more people from the bar owners side, certainly on issues like this, would be helpful. Not only to the bands but possibly to other bar/club owners.
NOW, what charcoal works best for everyone 'cause Kingston's knawed through my last nerve ending! Thoe little self-lighting bags are great, but
not big enough and way too expensive to have to buy a couple each time
we want to grill.
DaveP.
No prob. Like I said, very cool tunes and it's great that you guys worked
and found people who were right for the project and are into what you're
doing.
For everyone else, I don't think they put up a post and said "How can we
make more money and not go through all the crap everyone else has?".
Dude asked a simple, very valid question that clearly has no easy answer
(No I'm not interested in any venemous back and forths, just pointing out
a fact).
Believe me, I've done my share of shows where you travel REALLY far and
find out the place didn't advertise and you're taking the door so you lose yer keister after paying the sound guy, played for free to get into a place, et al. Granted those are all part of the famed "Dues" and make for great stories as you sit around reminiscing, but I think a major point of these discussions is to help each other out.
HOENSETLY, I have no idea what say at a lot of places when booking. It depends on the place, their capacity, etc., how long you've been around (YOU may be really well known to a bar owner, the new band may be a totally unknown quantity).
I like small places as much as big and am willing to work with bar/club
owners, especially if it's a place that is cool to bands and has them on a
fairly regular basis.
In addition to playing, I've been self-employed doing graphic design, Internet setups, etc. If you're discussing doing work for someone you know can't afford what you normally charge but it's something you'd like to
do for whatever reason, you make some concessions as you see fit.
Some places have a set guideline of however much and the door. If you're
new and can swing sound, that might work great. If you're going to be at a
loss (No one's doing this as an internship and should be able to make a little money), either look around, maybe do a couple of opening spots, etc.
As with other topics here, I think input from bar owners would be useful.
What do YOU pay a new band? If you're a reasonable distance from them
why not offer up E.C. a show and discuss some pay possibilities (Not out
here inpublic of course, it's none of our business). Point is, this is a terrific
forum and having more people from the bar owners side, certainly on issues like this, would be helpful. Not only to the bands but possibly to other bar/club owners.
NOW, what charcoal works best for everyone 'cause Kingston's knawed through my last nerve ending! Thoe little self-lighting bags are great, but
not big enough and way too expensive to have to buy a couple each time
we want to grill.
DaveP.
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Killjingle
- Diamond Member
- Posts: 1714
- Joined: Tuesday Dec 10, 2002
- Location: Elton
- Contact:
Aim high... ask for 5000 beaners, if u get one gig at that rate u can play the rest of the year for peanuts...
I played Aldos in 1994 for 5 dollars (Whiskey High was in town at New Sabastianos). We had to pay the soundguys 250. Nothing like paying out 200 dollars your first trip to Altoona (soundguys were cool, and they didnt have to be about this, only charged us 2 bills). Although... we sounded good IMHO and Aldo was a champ and gave us free drinks.
I will never forget how that felt... we took that one on the chin pretty hard. I learned a lot about the bar biz that day...
I played Aldos in 1994 for 5 dollars (Whiskey High was in town at New Sabastianos). We had to pay the soundguys 250. Nothing like paying out 200 dollars your first trip to Altoona (soundguys were cool, and they didnt have to be about this, only charged us 2 bills). Although... we sounded good IMHO and Aldo was a champ and gave us free drinks.
I will never forget how that felt... we took that one on the chin pretty hard. I learned a lot about the bar biz that day...
Everyone wants to go to heaven but noone wants to die
"Nothing like paying out 200 dollars"
Ya, those are the things that make the stories later. We were playing a place one night,
absolutely packed. We'd rented a PA and were paying a guy to run it.
Somewhere in the second set the power went out.
Some dolt wrecked into a pole and power was out everywhere in the area.
Gave it some time and then talked it over with the bar owners. We decided that if things
weren't back up in a little whiile we'd call it a night. After about 15 minutes they said we
could wrap it up. We got loaded and they refused to pay us ANYTHING. Nada. They
said they reimbursed people who paid coming in and would lose money.
Well, THAT was a lie. We spoke to people after and they got nothing back.
And, according to the owners, we didn't play the whole night so they wouldn't pay us the other part of what we were getting.
I wanted to push the issue, but the other guys wanted to drop it take the loss.
The place is out of business now and we never played there again after.
Tell you this much, dues can suck.
DaveP.
Ya, those are the things that make the stories later. We were playing a place one night,
absolutely packed. We'd rented a PA and were paying a guy to run it.
Somewhere in the second set the power went out.
Some dolt wrecked into a pole and power was out everywhere in the area.
Gave it some time and then talked it over with the bar owners. We decided that if things
weren't back up in a little whiile we'd call it a night. After about 15 minutes they said we
could wrap it up. We got loaded and they refused to pay us ANYTHING. Nada. They
said they reimbursed people who paid coming in and would lose money.
Well, THAT was a lie. We spoke to people after and they got nothing back.
And, according to the owners, we didn't play the whole night so they wouldn't pay us the other part of what we were getting.
I wanted to push the issue, but the other guys wanted to drop it take the loss.
The place is out of business now and we never played there again after.
Tell you this much, dues can suck.
DaveP.
I would have invited the band to belly up at the bar, got ya drunk, then negotiated! Ha ha ha
There was a similar situation one night at the popper (weather though) and the band and I worked it out that they were paid enough to cover gas, gave them pizza and wings, in exchanged for a second try. The next time they were in, we had a decent crowd and they were paid fully.
There was a similar situation one night at the popper (weather though) and the band and I worked it out that they were paid enough to cover gas, gave them pizza and wings, in exchanged for a second try. The next time they were in, we had a decent crowd and they were paid fully.