Little help from the bands that are gigging

[brokenstrings]

Whats the going rate for a band that dosent completly suck? Gas and renting a trailer isnt getting any cheeper. How much is too much to ask for for a band that isnt well known?

[Banned]

How bad do you suck if you don't completely suck? There's a big price difference between the two.

Seriously though, I don't believe in divulging pay rates because every club, band and circumstance surrounding bookings is different for everybody.

Here's a hint: If you walk out of the gig without owing any money, that's cool and if you're able to put a little in your pocket, then that's all gravy money!

What's it worth to you? I'm sure the club owners will let you know how much they want to pay you, especially if you're new. It's tough out there.

[brokenstrings]

Ya it sure is tough, especially when when your playing for gas money and the bar is selling booze like the brewerys are shutting down cause your there that night. It seems to me that the bars are all about screwing the bands out of every dollar they can.

[tonefight]

Thats a tough question to get an answer on, different bands draw different crowds in different areas etc. You might as well figure on going in low because if a bar owner never heard your name and you ask for $600 you probably won't be playing there. You usually have to prove yourself first and be realistic, if you play the first night and there are 30 people there the place probably isn't making any money so don't ask for more until you know the place is making some money.

[Banned]

Tony makes a good point and as a follow-up, you should take into account any expenses you might have and make sure they're covered for a starter. Hopefully the overhead is low.

Then once you have that figure in mind, think about what would be nice to put in your pocket. Don't over do it for a starter. When you start getting crowds, hopefully you'll get paid a little more. Again, it takes time.

Start higher and you can always come down, just like sales. But once you start low, good luck going back up.

Man, it's touchy when it comes to pricing. There's really no set formula. If you can make a bundle at a place, great. Cherish those gigs.

I've been at this for a very long time and I still don't know the answer. As some of the "seasoned" people on here will vouch for, it sure ain't like it was in the '80s. Free booze, free women, short sets, long breaks, big money. Those were the days. Now, you practically have to give birth onstage and some people still don't notice or care!

[Lisa]

Ya it sure is tough, especially when when your playing for gas money and the bar is selling booze like the brewerys are shutting down cause your there that night. It seems to me that the bars are all about screwing the bands out of every dollar they can.

You know...I don't know of any band that our bar didn't treat them based on their worth...some bands got food if the crowd didn't show but we thought they were awesome because we didn't have the cash in the drawer to pay them what they were worth.

Saw a posting on myspace from a bar in Tampa...and I really liked it. It mentioned a new policy that they put in place....I will find it and post it here for opinions.

[DirtySanchez]

If you're trying to get your name out, money is the last thing you should be worried about. Sometimes we'll do an all ages show and end up with like thirty bucks, for the whole band. To us it doesn't matter anyways cuz we pay for everything out of pocket and any money we make goes in the "fund" for things that will make us money like recording, shirts, stickers, ya know Merchandise. Also we spend our fund money on advertising and promoting so we keep the club owners happy with a crowd
then they treat us well at the end of the night. If you feel a club is burning you speak up, you may be surprised, or you may decide you don't want to deal with them again. Either way be patient, it's a slow process getting the word out about your band, but that's what you gotta to do before you can make any cake.

[jangel]

Well since I'm on both sides of the spectrum here is what has worked for me:
As a band we started and booked places where we thought our music would go over. play enough of these places and gather a following. once you can tell a club that you have a following and know what kind of crowd to expect your price can go up. bringing a couple of friends and girl friends does not count as a following. "Draw" is the name of the game. and again is the music your playing what the crowd wants. and as said in a prior post are you in it for the money or "fun". If its money then you have to treat it as a business....

On the bar side too many bands have come thru dropping off CDs or tapes of a couple songs and asking for money that is way out of line. When I ask them do they have a following tha answers are, not yet were new, we thought we could play in front of your crowd.
You have to think whose the draw the Bar or the band. if its the bar then you dont't need the band. but if its the band then theres something to work with Price and Availability.
this is a small part of it but use it to start thinking

[drums=life]

Man i would love to go into a bar and say how much i want to get paid, good luck on that. Like sanchez said, it is a slow process, i would love to put money in my pocket at the end of the night. We "FedUP" put everything we make in our fund for Mech and advertising, it has just started to pick up for us. dont expect the world from any bar the first few times in there. We have fun playing and if we make some money thats the gravy for us

Good Luck.

[greaser]

play for gas money or for nothing at all untill you build up a following.

after you get a following, start to concentrate on trying to break even.

after you start breaking even, concentrate on trying to make a profit.

this may or may not happen......but you get to have a lot of fun in the process!

[brokenstrings]

I didn’t realize how dire the band scene is in Pa. We’ve been hitting around 30 per member after expenses. I guess that’s decent for a start. We haven’t had less than 30 people at a show so far. On one occasion we had about 35 people at the bar. Seeing that I used to work at this bar, I can make sense of the register. Place made $700 in alcohol sales that night. That’s about 22 dollars a person or so. That’s about what I drink when im watching a band (which is more than if im just out and there is nothing goin on). Not to mention the heavy hitters that spend the big loot on shots. The bar business makes big time cash on the liquor due to the huge markup.

All im trying to say is, How freggin hard is it for a bar to give you $100 or $200 and the door when your bringing in at least 30 people. And that’s at a bare minimum for a headcount. We had approx 150-200 at this other place.

Seems to me, the bars aren’t trying to pay a fair wage. It’s kind of like back in the day when the competing steel mills were all in cahoots in underpaying employees.

[HurricaneBob]

Pay your dues!!

[DirtySanchez]

Some places pay some don't you just have to find which venues and bar owners work the best with you and make sure you do everything possible to pack that motherfucker. If you do you should be compensated, if not, take the crowd a mile down the road where the next bar will be happy to accomodate you and your fans.

[Banned]

One thing to be wary of is "lowballing" your way into clubs. It's tempting when starting out, but it can make the road that much rougher down the line. Two dangers with lowballing:

• You've just established your going rate at that club, and it's a fierce battle uphill from that. If you start out making $200, you won't ever get $2000 out of that same club, even if other bands there are making $2000. You are a $200 band in their eyes.
• Clubs do have some idea what other clubs pay bands. In some cases, they even communicate directly. Clubs have literally told us "we're giving you a pay cut, because we know you charge the club down the road less than you charge us", and then told us EXACTLY how much we make at the club down the road. Scary.

A good rule of thumb is to always ask for more than you expect/want to make. Then you can bargain down to exactly where you want to be.

In the past year or so, I've gigged with 3 different bands, and played some of the same clubs with them. One club even booked all 3 on a semi-regular basis. The differences in pay, even for the same night of the week, were staggering. But in every case, the band made the same thing: a little less than what we asked for. (A big caveat here is that all 3 bands had a good concept of their worth, in terms of drawing power and overhead.)

[brokenstrings]

Woops, i posted the same shit twice, anyway.

Ya, we defiantly don’t wanna low ball it. That fucks it up for everyone. That’s probably the biggest problem with the business now, bands taking the show on the road before it’s decently polished and marketable.

We get it all the time from owners, "Several local bands aren’t on their game and we don’t want to take the risk." Once we get a gig and play it, they always wanna book us again.

We are paying our dues; weve invested thousands into this band and continue to invest. We are actively playing and continue to play gigs. Its disheartening to see a bar prosper and yet still continue to pay these low ass rates. I don’t care how much I make, I have a real job, but I do care that I can get the equipment we need to continue to improve. Alls im saying is that we (the bands) are getting the short end of the stick. Not just from the bar, but the lousy bands that just don’t care about quality. Were not the best, but we wouldn’t dream of taking a show on the road unless we knew we were going to be marketable. There is just as many bar flies as back in the 80's. Maybe the bars got smart and the bands didn’t.

[Lisa]

I didn’t realize how dire the band scene is in Pa. We’ve been hitting around 30 per member after expenses. I guess that’s decent for a start. We haven’t had less than 30 people at a show so far. On one occasion we had about 35 people at the bar. Seeing that I used to work at this bar, I can make sense of the register. Place made $700 in alcohol sales that night. That’s about 22 dollars a person or so. That’s about what I drink when im watching a band (which is more than if im just out and there is nothing goin on). Not to mention the heavy hitters that spend the big loot on shots. The bar business makes big time cash on the liquor due to the huge markup.

All im trying to say is, How freggin hard is it for a bar to give you $100 or $200 and the door when your bringing in at least 30 people. And that’s at a bare minimum for a headcount. We had approx 150-200 at this other place.

Seems to me, the bars aren’t trying to pay a fair wage. It’s kind of like back in the day when the competing steel mills were all in cahoots in underpaying employees.

How much of a markup do the bars have that you are playing at???? Everyone bitches because we sell our bottle domestics for $2 and still complain about paying $2 for shots or $4 for a jager bomb. Its really not much of a markup especially when you see the liquor liability insurance costs.

Let's see...$700 in sales.....that's a decent night..I'd take that. Ok, 35 people...$5 each at the door....$175. Your band wants the $175 + $200 more. Bar sells $700 in beer, less the $200 to the band. Bar replaces the inventory, pays the liquor liability, and other associated costs...Woo whoo...we've made about $50 on the night! In all honesty...I would have taken a night like that a year ago before we lost so much money trying to make $50 profit.

But then again, I really don't think its the band...and I don't think its the bar. Its the area. Its changing..and its getting better. I'm very grateful for the bands that encouraged us not to give up and who have given US a break and especially to those who bring their families into eat occassionally.

I have given some newer bands a try...and was told by our local customers that we shouldn't because it hurts our business if they aren't any good. They want us to stick with the same ol' bands. This is very disappointing for me because I like to change it up some. A lot of you have your music on your websites like myspace or personal pages.....I try to listen to you all before I bring you in....I'm hoping it works for us....

I'm excited...never had the Hurricanes in the house before....they will be there in November. I'm debating over New Year's eve yet. Everyone wants more money for that night....last year we lost big time.

If the bars aren't stepping up, crap on them. If a band was good...but the crowd didn't really show...we pay. We always ask them what they want....all but the one were considerate...and we tend to be considerate of them...(free food usually helps along with the drinks).

You know...I would love to be able to have a multi-band marathon type weekend.....bands all weekend...just bring down the house and let the locals know that they can find new bands who are as good (if not better) than the ol' reliable band. (Nothing against the 'old' one cause they kick ass too). If I knew how to organize it so that all bands get paid and we make a little money, I would.

I have learned a lot here. Hopefully I will get to work more and more with you guys/gals as the time goes on.

[drums=life]

Pay your dues!!

Well fuckin put bob, that about sums it up man. We all have to do shows for 50 bux and like it, believe me im not in this for the money, cuz there aint none when you start bro. Love of music and the fans who come see us, thats why we do it

Take your lumps like everyone else man, oh and have fun doing it!!!!!

[MeYatch]

Pay your dues!!

Well fuckin put bob, that about sums it up man. We all have to do shows for 50 bux and like it, believe me im not in this for the money, cuz there aint none when you start bro. Love of music and the fans who come see us, thats why we do it

Take your lumps like everyone else man, oh and have fun doing it!!!!!

we have never played a show for $50, and I can't imagine why we ever would.

we can fill a night by ourselves, if all we got was the door, thats 10 people at $5, and 17 at $3.

if the members of my band don't know 17 people in the area to see us play, we have bigger problems than how much to charge people, like probably leprosy or something.

any why would I drive out of the area to play a bar that only gets 10 people in it?


I realize we aren't huge rockstars playing to arena sized venues, but I have a hard time wrapping my head around you guys that are making no money, or making less than no money.

[DirtySanchez]

We do shows for free sometimes too, like opening a show or benefits or a kegger. We have done all age shows and made $50.00 The thing is we didn't get together and say hey we can make some money doing this, if we did we'd play some cheese dick shit that some 19 year old wrote and Rick Dees spins on a regular basis. Here's an idea, it's about the music.
If you wanna sellout that's fine. I am a nobody and my words mean even less. I don't care if you play covers or originals, it's about what you like to do. I made a thread about a month or so ago that asked "Why do you like making music?" not one single person said "for the money". I'm not trying to look like a fucking saint here cuz I like the attention, the free booze, the having my pic. in the PA musician aspects too, but that's all secondary to music that I wrote, lyrics that I live and feel being brought to the masses that no amount of money can compete with. Most of our shows we make a good deal of money and we play at clubs that are reputable establishments but you know what I'm not above anything and thinking like that will hold you back, so good luck with that bro.

[HurricaneBob]

Your band has been around..what ...6 months if even that?
And your complaining about money already?
You guys dont have a clue what dues are and it sounds like when it gets tough your gonna fold. Yeah sounds harsh but your attitudes will make it happen.

any why would I drive out of the area to play a bar that only gets 10 people in it?

You just hung yourself there bud....

[MeYatch]

nobody is complaining about money, it was a question of how much do you tell a bar that it costs to have your band play when you contact them.

benifts are one thing, all age shows are one thing (I'm not particularly into those anyway), opening slots for another band are one thing.

I'm talking about when I call a bar on the phone and I say, hey, this is mitch from echo chamber, hows about we play your club?

they ask me how much it costs, and you think I should tell them $50?

I think you are dead wrong, if thats what you are trying to say.

its not a matter of whether Echo Chamber is worth $5 for 4 hours, or $5000 for 4 hours, when I tell them $50, Echo Chamber is imediately worth $50 for 4 hours.

are you trying to tell me that we are doing something wrong, because we aren't losing money at this so far?

people have bad nights, I'm sure it will happen, there will come a day when we go to a new venue, we play for the door, and its next to dead, we don't make any money, the venue doesn't make any money.

you think I'm going to pack in the towel? Bullshit.

I love to play music, and write music as much as anyone else here, its what I do. If we aren't out playing somewhere, we'll be out seeing someone else.

If I was in this to make money, I'd be a complete moron. I'm more than I care to count in the hole right now, buying PA equipment, not to mention my rig.

do you think we are stupid for approaching this with some buisiness sense?

If you think just because we havn't been around long, that we are a laughingstock, and that we aren't worth any money, then you are wrong, dead wrong.

I hate to come off as an asshole, and I know you are respected around here, and I've got nothing but respect for you man, I saw you play, eric and I were trying the next day to figure out how you did some of the shit you did, we still didn't figure it out.

It was a simple question, which I realize requires a complicated answer, but "play for free" is not the answer.
its not about money, its about respect, and its about worth.
we aren't calling bars asking them for $1000. I told lisa in her last post, and I'd tell anyone we were calling, don't expect us to bring new customers into your bar, take that into consideration when negotiating a price. But we will not cause patrons to run out the door, trying to get their money back.

Playing in a band is not easy, you all should know that, if I worked out the hourly wage I was being payed, between actual band practice, practicing on my own, booking, recording, designing press kits, etc, I'd be a complete idiot to think I was making money. But I'm not about to give away for free, what people will, and rightly should pay for.

everybody pays their dues, in one way or another, nobody starts out with 8 shows a month booked for $1000 each. But "play for $50" screws over everybody in the buisiness.

would you buy cheap equipment? you might, if you tried it, but if you were mail ordering or something? If I was a bar, I would be extremely leary of a band that called me and told me they would play for $50.


alright, shoot me down some more guys.

*edited for atrocious spelling and typos

[Plastered Bastards]

Whoa,Whoa,Whoa!
Wait a minute.You mean we are supposed to get paid for doing this?
WOW! Nobody told us that.Shit from now on,I'm asking for some money.
Man,what a bitch.I'm doing this forever and never thought this.
What a revelation.
Cheers!!!!!

[brokenstrings]

If were gonna die, were not gonna die quietly, and if we do fold its not gonna be because we cant get along or the scene is kicking our asses that’s for sure. I could see us flopping due to our rhythm guitarist getting some rare form of STD, or one of us having to move. That’s about it.

It was never for the money, and it never will be, unless I quit my day job to do this stuff. That would be a dream. We got together cause we liked playing our favorite rock and roll songs and writing our own. Just like everyone else on the page.

As soon as you start to gig, your band becomes a business. TINSTAAFL There is no such thing as a free lunch. We all have expenses that need to be overcome at a gig. im sorry to see how poor the state of affairs is with central PA music scene. There are certainly enough people here to support a thriving music scene. There is no doubt that there are enough people that go to the bar that aren’t afraid to spend their last nickel. Something is defiantly wrong here with the business IMO. For god sakes there is 50,000 people in Altoona alone.

[DirtySanchez]

Nobody is saying request $50. You'd have to be a total retard to do that.(no offense to retards either I think they're nice people). Everyone is saying that live music isn't the hot commodity it once was, thank techno music and dance clubs. Take a hit,play for less money with the understanding ifall goes well you get more money and more shows.
I played at Peter C's in the mid-late nineties on wednesday fucking nights for the door at $2 a head. You can throw your business sense out the window cuz last time I checked in business you needed a kickass resume and had to be marketable. Your band isn't very well known yet, the best business sense to me would be get your name out. Get involved in every cause or fest orbenefit Jam you can, that's good business, call it philanthropy ya ever hear of business' doing that ? Fuck yeah it's great PR.
What will hurt you is to complain about it on a public forum where half the club owners you want to work with lurk everyday looking for that band that's gonna bring the big crowd to their club. Do not take everything as a personal attack because if you're trying to be business-like you're gonna need critique to learn.

Alas the music scene is awesome in central PA, the problem is when you're just starting out guess what you're the low man on the totem pole.
Back to business jargon- Entry Level. How much is an entry level position worth to you? If you don't like it move to LA where you'll pay a club to play. How's that sound? Bands are a dime a dozen and you're the new guy so as was said take your lumps.

[brokenstrings]

Just gotta keep on gigging, atleast we signed titties last time. Cant put a price on that.