Rhythm Guitar

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Mar 12, 2006

I've done both situations and I prefer to have one guitar.

I enjoy keeping "busier" on bass and adding stuff which you don't always get to do when you have two guitar players.

Again, though, it depends on style and material. We play all covers and if there is material that we can't adequately cover with just one guitar, we just don't choose that particular tune to learn/cover.

There are a lot of factors that can be involved, but the post only wanted an opinion so that's mine.

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Sunday Mar 12, 2006

SpellboundByMetal wrote: Basically, if you want to be popular around here, play popular stuff.....kinda cheating if you ask me. id rather suck playing original stuff without a doubt.

Just had to jump in here, Keith. Actually, the above quote is totally untrue. If you don't believe me, go to most any of the area music nightspots on a Friday night to see a band that's from out of the area, or newly-formed. 99% of them are playing the "popular covers" that you despise, but also 99% of them are playing the "Ethan Allen" tour, translation empty room.

I made this point before in another one of these worthless threads about originals vs. covers. Basically, SHUT THE FUCK UP. Music is music is music. Every cover was an original somewhere down the road. There's nothing wrong with a musician wanting to play out on the weekends to make a few bucks, and doing so in a cover band.

You know that you're my friend, Keith, but this "cover band suck" rant that you constantly rage about has got to be toned down. I promise you that I'll put up Kenny "oLd sKool" Murdick of Bad Daze, Jimi Hatt of HF1, or my lead guitarist, Ed Miller of Scream, up against any guitarist playing in an all-original band any day of the week. Guess what? It'll be at least even in the talent level. It's a lot harder than you think to perform a song exactly as it was recorded. With original music, if a guitarist wants to stay in one style that he's comfortable with, then that's what he does. But in a cover band, you have to play like every guitarist that you're covering, and that's a motherfucker of a task.

It's all about what you want to do musically. If you want to write and perform your own original compositions, there's absolutely nothing wrong with that at all. But if you're like me, and play on the weekends to make some money, drink some beer, and have some fun with friends, we shouldn't be crucified for it just because we're playing covers, THAT opinion is retarded. Just because I play in a cover band doesn't make me any less of a drummer than the drummer from OGS, Bobby from The Hurricanes, or anyone else.

I PLAY BECAUSE IT'S WHO I AM. I APPRECIATE COVER BANDS, AND ORIGINAL BANDS.

If you're just going to argue about it, then do it offline, or via PM. There's been enough wasting of Rockpage bandwidth with small-minded bullshit over the past couple years, just fucking drop it already.

Besides...

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Sunday Mar 12, 2006

The Beatles seemed to do OK .

rickw · Post by **rickw** » Sunday Mar 12, 2006

Yes indeed Hawk, the Beatles did ok! Yes, they cut their teeth playing Hamburg Germany and at the Cavern in Liverpool doing yes, you guessed it, covers! Anyway Kent, I like playing rhythm guitar. Texture, voicings, linking up with the bass and drums while the lead soars. It's all good. And I don't really give a damn about covers vs originals. Play what you want, play what you feel, and play that music (almost said funky

)that you love whether it's yours or anothers. Just love playing!

grimmbass · Post by **grimmbass** » Sunday Mar 12, 2006

Guys,

I honestly only started this thread to have some real "musical" discussion, and somehow we got into a flame war about covers versus originals.

Last time I looked, there are cover bands AND original bands that both deal with the one versus two guitar issue.

Jeez...next thing somebody will chime on on politics....Bobby Lee, you readin' this?

How about a redirect....during my time in Grimm, we always wrote our songs around our instrumentation. We didn't have a second guitar, so I filled more space....truth be told, I love the space!

Let's keep this thread on the issue at hand, shall we?

Peace,

Kent

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Mar 12, 2006

Rhythm guitar players are extremely useful for chick appeal. Let's face it . . . lead guitar players tend to be socially inept and chemically dependant, while bass players are just plain ugly. Chicks dig the lead singer, but lead singers love no one but themselves. Keyboard players are gay. So who's left to provide sex appeal? The rhythm guitarist!

Is there anyone I didn't offend in the last paragraph? Well, maybe the drummers. But they can't read anyway, so why waste the pixels.

rickw · Post by **rickw** » Sunday Mar 12, 2006

Jimi, nearly lost a mouthful of suds on that one!

Hawk · Post by **Hawk** » Sunday Mar 12, 2006

Jimi Hatt wrote:
Is there anyone I didn't offend in the last paragraph? Well, maybe the drummers. But they can't read anyway, so why waste the pixels.

I'd like to disagree. We give reading lessons for the word impaired at Drum Nights.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Mar 12, 2006

rickw wrote:Jimi, nearly lost a mouthful of suds on that one!

It's a good thing you aren't a keyboard player, or it would have been a mouthful of something else.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Mar 12, 2006

Okay, sorry for re-hijacking Kent's thread. Back to topic.

I really like a single guitar player. There's a lot more clarity to the sound (especially live), and you can hear more of the nuances of what the individual players are doing. It's also an interesting challenge for the guitarist to keep it sounding "big".

Another thing I've noticed over the years is that two-guitar bands are often mixed as a one-guitar band in live situations - meaning that when both guys are playing the same part, one of them is dropped back or out of the mix entirely. Just today I was watching a Metallica concert disc, and couldn't help but notice how often James was gesturing to the crowd with his right hand, but there was no dropoff in the rhythm guitar part. Probably 90% of the time the guitar mix seemed to be all Kirk.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

Victor Synn wrote: Bassist...I understand that SB ripped on old skool, but I don't think you really had to go where you went about SB's playing. Might not be your thing, but it might be good enough for what he's doing in One Gun. If you enjoy what you're doing, that's great, but take the high road.

You're right. It's not like me to ppublicly bash somebody's musicianship, and I've often given props on Rockpage to players and bands that I admire. I kind of felt responsible for talking about what it's like playing with Ken, and then having someone doing a dig at him. As Rob said, Ken wouldn't come on with an attitude, but frankly, his playing talks enough that he doesn't need an attitude. I also get sick of the whiney attitudes, and that often leads me to bite someone's head off. But I don't justify anything I do, and I'm not going to start now.

And I really don't understand how this got turned into a covers vs originals debate. I simply replied to Kent's post. BTW, there are originals coming, but of course, unless they're heavy metal, they probaly won't be respected by a certain contingent of people.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

Here's my hint for today: When playing rhythm guitar behind guys like Jimi Hatt, do turn the volume down on your amp and let him do his job. For me, rhythm guitar has always been about locking in with the drummer and bassist, and generally adding texture to what they're doing. I'm not a real technical guitarist, and have neither talent nor desire to be, so what I've always done is attempt to play counterpoint on whatever rhythm the lead guitarist is playing, then keep the overall song solid when he solo's. Of course I also do most of the singing, so it can be a challenge to stay in the pocket while concentrating on the vocal. That's where it pays to have a good all around lead guitarist that understands his role on rhythm parts.-------->JMS

AugaDiFlow · Post by **AugaDiFlow** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

i say 1 guitar but 2 can also be a great thing if both ego's are in tact the a good thing bout 2 guitar is added rhythm and more creativity the huge downfall is back on the ego one guitarist is blasting out the other one its happened to me and it make the performing experience not as fun "i follow these words keep it simple and soulful and it will rock"

just to touch on the cover band vs original

i have written over 500 songs have lyrics published in poem books ect ect bottom line i dont care if your in billing,mt altoona, pa key west, fl london, england tokyo, japan you atleast have to cover a few songs to intice people to pay attention....grab an audiences attention w/ a good mix of cover songs dont have to be top 40 just somthing recognizable

i try to run around this structure unless people request songs

Set 1,2 and 3 Variations my change....

Original
Original
Cover
Original
Original
Cover
Cover
Original
Original
Cover
Original
Original or Cover
Original or Cover (This is just a sample set list)

somtimes ill throw in green day, WIllie, The Dead, Snoop Dogg, (Tradtional song (ex: I know you Rider) Nirvana, Phish,Ect Ect sometimes ill play an unkown song by a band (ex song:Ibiza Bar by Pink Floyd)

Bottom line i agree covering music sux but try to know your market your not less of a person to cover a song i normally pick a song because i can feel and channel the song thru my soul like my originals...does this make me a shitty musician because i will cover a song my shows are 65original 35 cover give or take most of the covers i do i recreate in an attempt to not completely rip off the original (thats being creative) hahah anyways ill stop rambling on THIS IS NOT A POST TO START ANY SHIT

Mistress_DB · Post by **Mistress_DB** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

Gonna agree with Kevin here. Spellbound... I don't know you from adam but you come across as a total egotistical prick. Ever think that the reason you can't seem to draw a crowd to one of your shows could be because of your pissy attitude? We get it. You think it's beneath you to have to play a cover. Get over yourself. You've shown nothing to prove you're the next Eddie Van Halen.

Ya wanna play all origionals? Great! Put your ego in check, pound the pavement and intend to bust your ass for god knows how many years before maybe (JUST MAYBE) your efforts will be recognized. The music business is only part tallent. The rest is all sheer luck.

*My appologies to Ron and JP for my rant. I'm sorry but I feel it's wrong for anyone to think they are automatically above another musician just because one plays covers and the other won't. *

tornandfrayed · Post by **tornandfrayed** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

I think that alot of times watching a band live, the space seems empty. I am an advocate of the rhythm guitar but I guess ity would require someone who is willing to be more part of the struture then to shine in the front of the band. I have not met many guitar players like that (ha ha) so I guess I would also opt for a keyboard player to add textures and mood.

I think that the idea of having that versatility within a band is really cool. It would be nice to stretch and be able to do anything that you wanted musically. The music to me is like a picture and if the colors are always the same I start to lose interest. I want to see a lot and to have my eye drawn to different points each time that I look at a drawing or photo. I want my mind to have the same chance with music, to explore and discover the subtle nuances each time that I listen. To turn another corner on each listening and to find new avenuces to appreciate in each phrase.

SavageHeart · Post by **SavageHeart** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

Again, I know I'm off topic too, BUT....

I have heard plenty of "originals" that sound like everything else. I have some great friends that play covers and they do it excellently. And just as others have said, sometimes you have to play covers to get your originals heard. OLD argument. If you are trying to get a band up and running, probably not a good idea to piss off people that could help you out a bunch (i.e. other musicians). It's also probably not a good idea to piss of the people that would come see you by acting like we are stupid. It's cool that you have your bad-assed heavy metal attitude....but it's also good that you would rather be playing stuff you like in your living room alone because with the attitude, that could be all that you end up doing.

As for the original reason for the thread....from a fans perspective....I personally like one guitar. There are many reasons. I have friends who know nothing about music and when too much is going on in a song they think it sounds "noisy". As a fan who knows something about music, I can appreciate the 2 guitar thing but I like the raw sound of just one. I think that often times less is more. From a strictly visual point of view....again, sometimes less is more. But hey, just my opinion....and I like to go see cover bands who play poop so I probably don't matter much.

BDR · Post by **BDR** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

SavageHeart wrote:...and I like to go see cover bands who play poop so I probably don't matter much.

Awesome ... another potential fan ... SavageHeart gets TWO Snickers at the next bad daZe show.

I think keys open you up to more possibilities when it comes to filling the void. I really dig seeing an existing member of a four-piece (singer, bass player, for example) work keys when needed rather than bringing on a new, permanent member to handle it. A lot of bands do that. Now, of course, if your music is key-driven, which many bands are, then that's different.

Another reason I prefer one guitar is because of space. I was in a five-piece before and when you're playing the "bar curcuit," sometimes the stages aren't so big. I was constantly stepping on somebody's cords ... or peddles ... or feet.

r:>)

SavageHeart · Post by **SavageHeart** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

Another reason I prefer one guitar is because of space. I was in a five-piece before and when you're playing the "bar curcuit," sometimes the stages aren't so big. I was constantly stepping on somebody's cords ... or peddles ... or feet.

BibleBangerRob,
That's where I was going with the visually preferring one guitar. I agree that most bar venues seem too small for 2 guitars, IMO. And I'm sure that I'd be a fan of BD....I've been trying to get to a Sundays Pelly show forever but just hasn't worked out. When I finally get to a show, I'll introduce myself and gladly take the TWO snickers!!!! I have met Randy a few times (HHH and Ozzfest...Hi Randy, I was with Greg from Roadkill)

SpellboundByMetal · Post by **SpellboundByMetal** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

youre calling ME an egotistical prick??? WOW , take a look at the mind-legends flocking here!!!! ALL of them!
too bad this has to be done.

ASB10 · Post by **ASB10** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

As a rhythm player (and vocalist...yeah one of those guys) I appreciate the abilities of those gentleman or ladies who play lead and sing...that's an amazing accomplishment unto itself....

Rhythm guitar adds fullness to our sound, and allows me to fill in the space for our kick ass lead player to do the tricks and effects and riffs that will carry our tunes (and covers...we do both....aren't we damn special.....)

To each their own.....I have always been a fan of two guitar bands....GNR, Metallica, Etc......and I like being able to play guitar instead of just being a "frontman" all if the time

I play guitar about 60% of the show now...which is a decrease from days gone by. Probably because we added a 40 minute medley that I don't play on.....and sometimes me playing only muddies up the sound of a certain song and makes it sound not as strong.....we have had a handful of songs over the years where this was an issue, and I politely put my Strat down and tried it without playing.....and it usually sounded better (not that I am a bad guitar player by any means)

But I agree with bassist_25 that all musicians in a band must be quality, rather than just playing whatever, and I think that if I couldn't strongly hold down the rhythm aspect, then I would forgo playing, or hire a new guitar player....I am able to add my own tricks or sounds to help each song along in a beneficial manner

It's of dire importance when having two guitarist to have comparing tones that complement one another.....not two overly distinct tones, and not two alike tones, but tones that will compliment one another and provide a tasty sonic pallate for the ears of the audience.....
Too many times I have seen local bands where both guitar players are using the same distortion pedals and effects and it becomes rather difficult to distinguish between the guitar players....and honestly....it sounds like shit.....

that's my take....

nakedtwister · Post by **nakedtwister** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

I am a member of a 5 piece band that includes a drummer, lead guitar, bass, keyboard, and lead vocals. Unfortuanately i'm the "instrumentally" challenged fuck that gets to do the vocals. I am envious of anyone who plays a piece so my input might not count. But the one thing I do know is that I have more fun doing something I love rather than bitching about what others dont do. I wouldn't trade any of my band mates for any nationally acclaimed musician in the world because we gel and have fun and thats what it's about. I have only been doing this for about a year now and it has been one of the best ever so lets concentrate on what is important about Rockpage. Mutual respect among all musicians. To those who dont know me and give a flying shit, my name is Brian. ( Generation Gap ). So rock on everybody!!!!!!!! P.S. Lets not demolish or stain such a great tool, such as Rockpage, that Ron and Jim has worked so hard to build and maintain. They deserve better!!!!!!!!!!!!

generationgap · Post by **generationgap** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

nakedtwister wrote:I am a member of a 5 piece band that includes a drummer, lead guitar, bass, keyboard, and lead vocals. Unfortuanately i'm the "instrumentally" challenged fuck that gets to do the vocals. I am envious of anyone who plays a piece so my input might not count. But the one thing I do know is that I have more fun doing something I love rather than bitching about what others dont do. I wouldn't trade any of my band mates for any nationally acclaimed musician in the world because we gel and have fun and thats what it's about. I have only been doing this for about a year now and it has been one of the best ever so lets concentrate on what is important about Rockpage. Mutual respect among all musicians. To those who dont know me and give a flying shit, my name is Brian. ( Generation Gap ). So rock on everybody!!!!!!!! P.S. Lets not demolish or stain such a great tool, such as Rockpage, that Ron and Jim has worked so hard to build and maintain. They deserve better!!!!!!!!!!!!

WORD.......................

BDR · Post by **BDR** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

SpellboundByMetal wrote:you little goofy frontwoman ...

See, now all this is going to do is give Paul, Kenny and Randy the idea that bad daZe would be more marketable with a hot, big-breasted female lead singer instead of some old guy with a new mic ... dammit, it had to end some time.

(Perhaps they'll let me play rhythm guitar ...

)

Maybe I'll just start wearing tight leather skirts and shirts with low-cut necklines to shows.

Jimi, where do you shop?

r:>)

SATAN · Post by **SATAN** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

Yeah Rob, LeXXY is still available. Dude, you in a skirt. I would pay to see that. After all I did have to wear a Steeler jersey for a month.

bad daZe
County Line Inn
Mount Union
March 18th

Shameless plug

SATAN

BDR · Post by **BDR** » Monday Mar 13, 2006

SATAN wrote:Yeah Rob, LeXXY is still available.

See, the changing of the guard has already started ... I'll be out on my unoriginal, coverwhore ass before I even realize what happened ...

r:>)

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