THE POLITICAL ARENA!!! Political Gladiators Inside!!

[lonewolf]

Thanks for the explanation... Of course I never expected any.

Rhetoric, that's all you guys can do. Think deeply about the question I posed then decide for yourself ON YOUR OWN why the 1% are hoarding trillions ? Why won't they let it trickle down as the Republicans have promised since Reagan ? Asking yourself why wages are going down so much people live in poverty while 2011 was the best year in history for their record making profits ? Asking yourself why they are doing so well if the economy sucks ?

Its very simple really. Econ 1 (not even 101). Companies are not in the jobs business, they are in the profit business and employees are needed to make profits.

1. Wages don't go up unless there is an increased demand/competition for new employees.

2. New employees don't get hired unless there is an increased demand for production.

3. Production doesn't increase unless there is an increased consumer demand for products or services.

We are in the phase of the business cycle where consumer demand is just starting to pick up. This comes after the recession phase where employees are laid-off and then a consolidation phase when companies generally have their highest productivity gains. Companies often reach their highest profitability during this consolidation phase.

Then its just 3, 2, 1.

Its all about confidence and certainty...or lack thereof. Consumers aren't confident and employers don't have much certainty right now. Some of that should clear up after the election this year. Investment cash is on the sidelines right now because of that uncertainty. Investor portfolios are more heavily weighted in cash and commodities than usual and this comes at the expense of stocks and corporate bonds. Many, such as myself, fear a federal debt meltdown may occur sometime after the federal reserve disconnects life support and don't want to be caught catching a falling knife.

The best thing that government can do is get off these stupid short term stimulus ideas and present the business community with tax and regulation policy that will remain in effect for a long period. I say scrap the present tax code altogether and replace it with something much more simple.

I will tell you that most of the newer regulation designed for a few large corporations is financially strangling all the smaller businesses that provide 3/4 of the country's employment. Most of this regulation is unnecessary for 99% of businesses.

[Hawk]

GM is AGAIN the worlds LARGEST auto maker !!!!!

Isn't it a shame that Obama saved all of those jobs. Not to mention all of the industries that support GM. Damn Union jobs, should have closed the damn place and let China build cars for us. What an idiot.

[Hawk]

Thanks for the explanation... Of course I never expected any.

Rhetoric, that's all you guys can do. Think deeply about the question I posed then decide for yourself ON YOUR OWN why the 1% are hoarding trillions ? Why won't they let it trickle down as the Republicans have promised since Reagan ? Asking yourself why wages are going down so much people live in poverty while 2011 was the best year in history for their record making profits ? Asking yourself why they are doing so well if the economy sucks ?

Its very simple really. Econ 1 (not even 101). Companies are not in the jobs business, they are in the profit business and employees are needed to make profits.

1. Wages don't go up unless there is an increased demand/competition for new employees.

2. New employees don't get hired unless there is an increased demand for production.

3. Production doesn't increase unless there is an increased consumer demand for products or services.

We are in the phase of the business cycle where consumer demand is just starting to pick up. This comes after the recession phase where employees are laid-off and then a consolidation phase when companies generally have their highest productivity gains. Companies often reach their highest profitability during this consolidation phase.

Then its just 3, 2, 1.

Its all about confidence and certainty...or lack thereof. Consumers aren't confident and employers don't have much certainty right now. Some of that should clear up after the election this year. Investment cash is on the sidelines right now because of that uncertainty. Investor portfolios are more heavily weighted in cash and commodities than usual and this comes at the expense of stocks and corporate bonds. Many, such as myself, fear a federal debt meltdown may occur sometime after the federal reserve disconnects life support and don't want to be caught catching a falling knife.

The best thing that government can do is get off these stupid short term stimulus ideas and present the business community with tax and regulation policy that will remain in effect for a long period. I say scrap the present tax code altogether and replace it with something much more simple.

I will tell you that most of the newer regulation designed for a few large corporations is financially strangling all the smaller businesses that provide 3/4 of the country's employment. Most of this regulation is unnecessary for 99% of businesses.

Nice try. But, increased wages = more spending = a necessary increase in production = more housing builds = on ansd on and on.
Cause and effect.

[lonewolf]

Nice try. But, increased wages = more spending = a necessary increase in production = more housing builds = on ansd on and on.
Cause and effect.

The world doesn't work that way. Henry Ford's 19th century strategy for a virtual monopoly doesn't stand a chance in 2012 with literally millions of companies vying for profits.

Silly boy! It would take a grand conspiracy of hundreds of thousands of companies to do something like that today!

This is yet another example of the tail wagging the dog. You shouldn't listen to what politicians say...they are clueless morons (idiot is too good a word for them).

[Hawk]

I watched the beginning of the Republican debate last night. What a set up. Stossel asks a question the Newt was very obviously prepped for (concerning his x wife's recent ABC interview). Newt destroyed Stossel with a standing ovation from the audience. It was all "staged' well.

I listened to Limbaugh yesterday. He talks about how good Bain is while acting like he doesn't support Romney. Limbaugh talks up Newt constantly.

Last night for the first time, when asked, Mitt would not comment on Newt's previous marital problems.

I still think the Republican voters are being set up for a previously decided ( like a year ago) Mitt - Newt ticket.

[Hawk]

Nice try. But, increased wages = more spending = a necessary increase in production = more housing builds = on ansd on and on.
Cause and effect.

The world doesn't work that way. Henry Ford's 19th century strategy for a virtual monopoly doesn't stand a chance in 2012 with literally millions of companies vying for profits.

Silly boy! It would take a grand conspiracy of hundreds of thousands of companies to do something like that today!

This is yet another example of the tail wagging the dog. You shouldn't listen to what politicians say...they are clueless morons (idiot is too good a word for them).

And you made my point for me. Trickle down economics does not work. Never will. The worshiped Reagan god is laughing in his grave at the fools who still follow his voodoo economics. Silly people.

Perhaps if laborers banded together, got better wages, THEN the money WOULD trickle down and be spent and the economy would rebound. Gee, workers banding together, hmmm, unionize, yeah, that would do it.

[f.sciarrillo]

I watched the beginning of the Republican debate last night. What a set up. Stossel asks a question the Newt was very obviously prepped for (concerning his x wife's recent ABC interview). Newt destroyed Stossel with a standing ovation from the audience. It was all "staged' well.

I listened to Limbaugh yesterday. He talks about how good Bain is while acting like he doesn't support Romney. Limbaugh talks up Newt constantly.

Last night for the first time, when asked, Mitt would not comment on Newt's previous marital problems.

I still think the Republican voters are being set up for a previously decided ( like a year ago) Mitt - Newt ticket.

It was Jon King, not Stossel. I agree that it will probably be Romney - Newt. We will have to see, though.

I want to see a Newt-Obama debate. Newt would rip him apart

[Hawk]

I watched the beginning of the Republican debate last night. What a set up. Stossel asks a question the Newt was very obviously prepped for (concerning his x wife's recent ABC interview). Newt destroyed Stossel with a standing ovation from the audience. It was all "staged' well.

I listened to Limbaugh yesterday. He talks about how good Bain is while acting like he doesn't support Romney. Limbaugh talks up Newt constantly.

Last night for the first time, when asked, Mitt would not comment on Newt's previous marital problems.

I still think the Republican voters are being set up for a previously decided ( like a year ago) Mitt - Newt ticket.

It was Jon King, not Stossel. I agree that it will probably be Romney - Newt. We will have to see, though.

I want to see a Newt-Obama debate. Newt would rip him apart

Newt blasted him for asking such a question in a presidential debate (to applause from the crowd). I guess "character" only matters to Republicans when they are talking about a Democrat.

[f.sciarrillo]

I watched the beginning of the Republican debate last night. What a set up. Stossel asks a question the Newt was very obviously prepped for (concerning his x wife's recent ABC interview). Newt destroyed Stossel with a standing ovation from the audience. It was all "staged' well.

I listened to Limbaugh yesterday. He talks about how good Bain is while acting like he doesn't support Romney. Limbaugh talks up Newt constantly.

Last night for the first time, when asked, Mitt would not comment on Newt's previous marital problems.

I still think the Republican voters are being set up for a previously decided ( like a year ago) Mitt - Newt ticket.

It was Jon King, not Stossel. I agree that it will probably be Romney - Newt. We will have to see, though.

I want to see a Newt-Obama debate. Newt would rip him apart

Newt blasted him for asking such a question in a presidential debate (to applause from the crowd). I guess "character" only matters to Republicans when they are talking about a Democrat.

With everything that the liberals do, you bring up character? Kettle black? I'm not saying that the republicans are saints, but the liberals have no room to talk about character.

[lonewolf]

Nice try. But, increased wages = more spending = a necessary increase in production = more housing builds = on ansd on and on.
Cause and effect.

The world doesn't work that way. Henry Ford's 19th century strategy for a virtual monopoly doesn't stand a chance in 2012 with literally millions of companies vying for profits.

Silly boy! It would take a grand conspiracy of hundreds of thousands of companies to do something like that today!

This is yet another example of the tail wagging the dog. You shouldn't listen to what politicians say...they are clueless morons (idiot is too good a word for them).

And you made my point for me. Trickle down economics does not work. Never will. The worshiped Reagan god is laughing in his grave at the fools who still follow his voodoo economics. Silly people.

Perhaps if laborers banded together, got better wages, THEN the money WOULD trickle down and be spent and the economy would rebound. Gee, workers banding together, hmmm, unionize, yeah, that would do it.

Then they'd all end up out of a job. 99% would be on foodstamps and whatever Chinese goods they could buy. The 1% would be buying German goods. You don't seem to comprehend that 3/4 of American jobs are provided by small companies, not big corporations.

Nothing works when politicians change policy on a weekly basis with idiotic short term remedies. Nobody knows what's next and so they wait for certainty. The present tax code is so fucked up that changing the rates around wouldn't even make much difference--big red herring. Proponents of adjusting rates with this code are just engaging in a big fucking circlejerk. And their blind followers are swallowing it hook, line & sinker.

If the country adopted a fair, flat tax plan like I propose, the economy would not only pick up, it would tend to have less extreme cycles. The government wouldn't be screwing things up by picking favorites and causing bubbles.

CEOs and smart money all know that the federal debt is a ticking timebomb and they want to be prepared when it goes off.

The only people I know who don't recognize the debt for the problem that it is are liberal, progressive, left-wing nutjobs and the people who follow them.

[Banned]

Where has socialism worked? It failed in the USSR and it failed in China. It failed in Cuba. It is bringing Greece to disaster.

[lonewolf]

Instead of rehashing the same shit for another 97 pages, let's talk about something that may have some effect on us as musicians: http://rockpage.net/phpbb2/viewtopic.ph ... 537#232537

Yeah, it will be a bummer if we can't pirate music anymore, lol.

sarcasm alert

[songsmith]

GM is AGAIN the worlds LARGEST auto maker !!!!!

Isn't it a shame that Obama saved all of those jobs. Not to mention all of the industries that support GM. Damn Union jobs, should have closed the damn place and let China build cars for us. What an idiot.

Re-quoted so it's not ignored by those "patriots" who said it wouldn't work.

[f.sciarrillo]

GM is AGAIN the worlds LARGEST auto maker !!!!!

Isn't it a shame that Obama saved all of those jobs. Not to mention all of the industries that support GM. Damn Union jobs, should have closed the damn place and let China build cars for us. What an idiot.

Re-quoted so it's not ignored by those "patriots" who said it wouldn't work.

Did you change your party affiliation to Democrat yet? You really should.

[songsmith]

Silly boy! It would take a grand conspiracy of hundreds of thousands of companies to do something like that today!

Or a US Chamber of Commerce. Also, if the Top 400 wage-earners have as much wealth as the bottom 155 million wage-earners, it's not so far-fetched to think they'd get together and game the system in their favor, so hundreds of thousands of businesses need not apply. Citizens United and the Tea Party don't get by on contributions from grandma's, they're corporate-sponsored, and corporate-promoted.
Such naivete!
Fortunately, middle-class support of these entities is dropping like a stone, and voters will vote with their pocketbooks. They see who's doing extremely well while the rest of us work harder for less. While the Tea Party fades, and the hard-right stubbornly fight each other, the moderates are watching the economy get slowly better, despite rightwing obstruction. Many of you hate Obama, but many don't. If he taps into that public sentiment toward wage inequity in an efficient manner, he'll easily be re-elected, and it doesn't matter if folks here don't like it.

[lonewolf]

GM is AGAIN the worlds LARGEST auto maker !!!!!

Isn't it a shame that Obama saved all of those jobs. Not to mention all of the industries that support GM. Damn Union jobs, should have closed the damn place and let China build cars for us. What an idiot.

Re-quoted so it's not ignored by those "patriots" who said it wouldn't work.

It hasn't worked on its own yet:

http://www.denverpost.com/opinion/ci_14957343

Of course, it wouldn't be right unless taxpayer money went to exported jobs:

http://wallstreetpit.com/88834-general- ... -automaker

Its pretty easy to sell a lot of cars when the government is paying for it up front:

http://www.cagw.org/newsroom/waste-watc ... drops.html

and on the back end:

http://www.cars.gov/

ooopsy daisy!

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/01/0 ... 86253.html

That doesn't even include the $billions$ stolen from the senior debt bondholders.

[songsmith]

Yeah, you're right. We should have let those jobs die, and you'd have blamed Obama for doing nothing. That way, a few wealthy guys could short it and make a mint on the misery of the American worker... it's the patriotic thing to do. The way it is now, we're just keeping paychecks coming for a few million workers.
More damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't tapdancing. Incidentally, where were those poor senior investors when GM was flailing? Could it be they would rather have the govt take all the risk? That's what happened, you know.

[lonewolf]

Yeah, you're right. We should have let those jobs die, and you'd have blamed Obama for doing nothing. That way, a few wealthy guys could short it and make a mint on the misery of the American worker... it's the patriotic thing to do. The way it is now, we're just keeping paychecks coming for a few million workers.
More damned-if-you-do-damned-if-you-don't tapdancing. Incidentally, where were those poor senior investors when GM was flailing? Could it be they would rather have the govt take all the risk? That's what happened, you know.

Who's to say that those jobs would die? Bankruptcy doesn't mean closure. They could have just as easily gone chapter 11, restructured and come out stronger than ever.

{and then the clueless fucking morons said: "nuh-uh"}

The senior investors were holding their investments when they were robbed by union bosses while the government held a gun to their head. Most of the senior debt was held by mutual fund companies...you know the kind that have corporate fixed income mutual funds? Anybody with a US corporate bond mutual fund or ETF got fucked in that deal. Lots of little old ladies on a fixed income.

{and then the clueless fucking morons said: "nuh-uh"}

Politicians don't care who they fuck as long as their core constituents get paid off.

[Banned]

If GM filed Chapter 11, they would have been able to re-negotiate those union contracts that made them go under in the first place. Then no taxpayer money would have been wasted and GM and Chrysler would then have new contracts that would not ruin them.

Nobama bailed out GM to save union contracts period.

Notice Toyota is doing just fine building cars in the USA, and they have no unions. They did not need any "bailing" out.

[f.sciarrillo]

Nobama bailed out GM to save union contracts period.

+1

[lonewolf]

Silly boy! It would take a grand conspiracy of hundreds of thousands of companies to do something like that today!

Or a US Chamber of Commerce.

I know! Why don't you...contact the chamber of commerce...and tell them your plan...to have all of their members...issue across the board pay raises for all their employees?!!

Good luck with that...and please...tell us all about their response.

[songsmith]

If GM filed Chapter 11, they would have been able to re-negotiate those union contracts that made them go under in the first place. Then no taxpayer money would have been wasted and GM and Chrysler would then have new contracts that would not ruin them.

Nobama bailed out GM to save union contracts period.

Notice Toyota is doing just fine building cars in the USA, and they have no unions. They did not need any "bailing" out.

Thanks, Mr. Obvious. Once again, you're more about lessening pay and working conditions, and less about helping workers. Union-busting sounds like it's all upside on the talkshows, but the reality is people, who worked their entire careers on contracts they NEGOTIATED with management in good faith, would have lost pensions and other legacy benefits. You, more than anyone else here, should know what it's like to put your entire career into one corporation, then get spat out when it was time for the gravy. The unions did cost the industry alot of money, but every single contract was negotiated and agreed to by all parties involved. Auto execs were never penniless in the bargain, in fact, they rode to the first meetings with the govt in corporate jets, as I recall. If Obama did something that benefitted unions, he also benefitted workers, which is somehow wrong to you. I say that if corporate entities can band together and muscle workers/customers/investors, then workers/customers/investors can and must shove back.
Incidentally, Toyota has unions, just not UAW.
Which brings to mind an idea: if American corporate concerns don't want to hire Americans at a decent wage, let's stop all tax breaks and govt contracts to them, and give them to foreign-based companies who hire Americans here. Fewer American fatcats making outrageous salaries, more working Americans... working.

[Banned]

I am for stopping all tax breaks and govt contracts. Just drastically lower all taxes, no need for tax "breaks". Why is government contracting anyway, they are very limited in what the Constitution allows them to do?

Just what is a fair, or decent wage?

A fair tax is 10% for wages and corporations. This government should be easily able to function, Constitutionally, on 10% of GDP.

[Hawk]

Nobama bailed out GM to save union contracts period.

+1

Frank, would you rather they shut down ?

BTW Joe, in nearly every economist's opinion, people bought GM vehicles because the Federal government backed them. It was a general consensus that without that support very few people would have trusted the company's warranty.

Chapter 11 is so rhetorical to just throw it out there without following it to a logical conclusion.

As with other forms of bankruptcy, petitions filed under chapter 11 invoke the automatic stay of § 362. The automatic stay requires all creditors to cease collection attempts, and makes many post-petition debt collection efforts void or voidable. Under some circumstances, creditors or the United States Trustee can ask the court to convert the case to a liquidation under chapter 7, or to appoint a trustee to manage the debtor's business. The court will grant a motion to convert to chapter 7 or appoint a trustee if either of these actions is in the best interest of all creditors. Sometimes a company will liquidate under chapter 11, in which the pre-existing management may be able to help get a higher price for divisions or other assets than a chapter 7 liquidation would be likely to achieve.

So what happens to all of the creditors that GM owns ? More Chapter 11s ? Or closures ? Driving our economy deeper in a hole ? What happens to all of the workers who work for the creditors who don't get paid ? Food stamps, so you can complain some more ?

Think of the thousands and thousands of workers who ARE NOT collecting welfare, unemployment and food stamps via GM - then thank Obama...

Admit it, you guys are just pissed that GM was saved successfully.

[Banned]

NObama does not care about workers. The millions without work since he has been president will testify to that.

He cares about union bosses and union campaign funds, period.