THE POLITICAL ARENA!!! Political Gladiators Inside!!

[lonewolf]

Two ways to look at the same fact:

There are complaints that 47% of Americans don't pay federal taxes (they do pay other taxes including social security). This pisses a lot of people off.

I complain that, in this terrible economy, while some business are making record profits and while the top 1% are getting richer (currently hoarding well over a trillion dollars), the 47% don't get paid enough to pay federal taxes.

I would also suggest that the majority of the 47% are responsible people.

Which side of the point bothers you ?

So, what are you suggesting? That the feds (at the point of a gun) make the businesses pay employees more?

Too late, they already do that with the minimum wage.

I'm not suggesting any forced action by the government relative to better pay. I'm only pointing out the problem.

I don't want free health care, I want affordable health care.

No. You are only pointing out the symptoms of the problem.

As far as health care goes...i suppose that if you eliminated unnecessary regulations on routine test procedures, you might cut the cost of those procedures dramatically while raising the odds of finding a problem early.

There are too many procedures that require a doctor that can be done by a nurse or technician.

Just 1 suggestion.

[Merge]

If the laws are created to make sure big corporations dominate and get rich, why are the protestors on Wall Street?? They should be on the steps of the Capitol Building, as that's where these laws are created.

Because the rich buy the politicians. They (not all of them) can be greedy.

Then I still think they're protesting in the wrong spot.

[songsmith]

Do they understand that without the rich, and without corporations, there would be no jobs at all? !

So where are they? Where is all this patriotism from the rich and the corporations? Where are the jobs our supposed "benefactors" have provided us with? THEY'RE doing well, why are they hoarding cash and not hiring? That's easy: They don't have to. Why hire 475 people when you pay the CEO as much as 475 people to force the remaining 100 people to do the same amount of work? The cause for the unemployment rate is simple, it's a waiting game. As times get harder and harder for the workforce, they will accept less pay, because they have no choice. Corporations who work on the global level are obviously forcing the US worker to compete with Third World labor, by becoming a Third World country ourselves. They're making out just fine, executive salaries are way up since the recession, that's indisputable... they only have to dangle the carrot until we're hungry enough to take it. This is also the main reason for corporate sponsorship of groups who oppose government safety-net programs, because it lengthens the their wait for cheap labor.
If it sounds far-fetched to say that rich people want us to be Third World, remember... Third World nations are MOSTLY poor, not completely poor. There are obscenely wealthy people in every backwoods hellhole in the world, who take advantage of the general population. Income injustice is what defines a Third World nation.
Those here who simply say that Americans are too lazy to get jobs are delusional, or stupid, or just believe everything they hear on the radio. Sure, you can go work at McDonald's, I'm back at retail, myself... but rich people don't even patronize McDonald's, let alone work there. Simply telling us to accept dog food so others can have filet mignon is yet another version of "let them eat cake." How'd THAT turn out?

[Geetarzz]

[songsmith]

Hawk:
If you pay laborers at a grocery store $20/hr, What do you suppose will happen to the price of grocerys?? We need to find a balance and live within the means that are currently part of our lives.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
My point is that a vast majority of the rich got there by sacrafice and hard work (and Im sure a bit of luck). Not being jealious of people that are more financially succesful than there were.

If you pay a grocery-chain CEO 475 times the average workers' salary to do something they did for 200 times the average workers' salary 10 years ago, what would happen to the price of groceries? Why is it wrong to give workers more money, but okay for management? Isn't it better to employ more people? This is not a rhetorical question, please answer, if you can.
Also, do workers not work hard and sacrifice? This sounds as if you've been listening to talking-heads in the media, all of whom make millions of dollars for very little actual labor, and all of whom want to keep you from figuring that out.
----------------------------------------
As for the American worker simply being jealous of executives, that's just silly, and more of that media influence. Anyone with a family knows sacrifice and work. When the CEO does the work of 475 people, he should get that much pay, but there is no way that is possible, so 475 unemployed people have a RIGHT to complain. The boss should get something more, but not everything more. The guy who actually accomplishes the most usually has rough, dirty hands, not a manicure.

[songsmith]

That's awesome!

[lonewolf]

Corporations who work on the global level are obviously forcing the US worker to compete with Third World labor, by becoming a Third World country ourselves.

Now you're starting to figure it out, albeit from a very narrow perspective.

[witchhunt]

As for the American worker simply being jealous of executives, that's just silly, and more of that media influence. Anyone with a family knows sacrifice and work. When the CEO does the work of 475 people, he should get that much pay, but there is no way that is possible, so 475 unemployed people have a RIGHT to complain. The boss should get something more, but not everything more. The guy who actually accomplishes the most usually has rough, dirty hands, not a manicure.

Reminds me of an asshole I worked for a few years ago. He was either a millionaire or close to it. He came into the shop one day and saw me talking to a co-worker. He called me into the office and says, "Do you realize that every minute you stand and bullshit with someone, it takes a dollar out of my wallet?" I didn't know whether to laugh, be pissed, or whip a death curse on him. So I did all three.

[lonewolf]

Ahhh, all this bitching about corporations. Screw them.

Obviously you don't need them, so why don't we just make life as bad as we can make it for them so that whats left will just leave the country?

Lets tax them even more than our #1 ranked tax rate. A few more ludicrous regulation laws that achieve nothing ought to make their day. Before they go, they can hire a few hundred more accountants to try to figure it all out. After they find that they cannot possibly comply with regulations written by economic idiots (i.e. lawyers), they will leave.

Of course, we will want to keep the 50 or so corporations that get preferential tax treatment by the two parties. After all, when they are gone, what will there be for the populists to bitch about.

You can all go to work for Johnny's band...after all Johnny, isn't it better to hire more employees? Here, there are plenty of musicians looking for work:

http://rockpage.net/phpbb2/forum5.html

[Banned]

If the laws are created to make sure big corporations dominate and get rich, why are the protestors on Wall Street?? They should be on the steps of the Capitol Building, as that's where these laws are created.

Because the rich buy the politicians. They (not all of them) can be greedy.

Why do the rich buy politicians?????

Because they have the real power, and that is where the protest should be.

[songsmith]

Ahhh, all this bitching about corporations. Screw them.

Obviously you don't need them, so why don't we just make life as bad as we can make it for them so that whats left will just leave the country?

Lets tax them even more than our #1 ranked tax rate. A few more ludicrous regulation laws that achieve nothing ought to make their day. Before they go, they can hire a few hundred more accountants to try to figure it all out. After they find that they cannot possibly comply with regulations written by economic idiots (i.e. lawyers), they will leave.

Of course, we will want to keep the 50 or so corporations that get preferential tax treatment by the two parties. After all, when they are gone, what will there be for the populists to bitch about.

You can all go to work for Johnny's band...after all Johnny, isn't it better to hire more employees? Here, there are plenty of musicians looking for work:

http://rockpage.net/phpbb2/forum5.html

Normal slippery-slope stuff. "If we don't bend over for them, they won't give us jobs!" News flash: They're not hiring, but they ARE taking the hefty paycheck.
"Obviously you don't need them, so why don't we just make life as bad as we can make it for them so that whats left will just leave the country?"... News Flash #2: They already have left, that's the point. If it's okay for them to make life as bad as they can for American workers, the inverse is okay, too.
The 35% corporate tax rate is a myth, and people are wise to that. Business pays taxes on their bottom line, you & I pay taxes on our gross. Effective tax rates for corporations range from zero percent for many, to about 11%. Of course, the rightwing believes that workers should be taxed, and the elite shouldn't.
Incidentally, in Johnny's band, everybody makes the same amount. That's because it's OUR band, not Johnny's band. Equal pay for equal output. Wild concept, huh?

[lonewolf]

What about all those privately owned businesses? I'll bet their owners make a lot more money that a typical CEO. They get to keep all the profits!

I never hear anybody say anything about those...I guess they are OK then, eh?

[songsmith]

If they invented the widget, promoted the widget, built the widget, hired the other people who helped build the widget, and took all the risk for the widget, they should get paid a decent chunk of the profits. If their Dad sent them to business school, and they have no other purpose than to tell multiple widget companies what to do, they should get FAR LESS. If they send jobs to whatever slave state they can, lobby and corrupt American gov't, and control a corrupt and divisive media, they should be jailed.

[lonewolf]

News Flash #2: They {corporations} already have left, that's the point. If it's okay for them to make life as bad as they can for American workers, the inverse is okay, too.

Well if they already left, why are you complaining about them?

[lonewolf]

If they invented the widget, promoted the widget, built the widget, hired the other people who helped build the widget, and took all the risk for the widget, they should get paid a decent chunk of the profits. If their Dad sent them to business school, and they have no other purpose than to tell multiple widget companies what to do, they should get FAR LESS. If they send jobs to whatever slave state they can, lobby and corrupt American gov't, and control a corrupt and divisive media, they should be jailed.

So then you must really like companies like Koch Industries and Sinclair Oil?

[Banned]

Someone got some splainin to do.

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/ ... _knew.html

Obama mention Fast and Furious in March even though he said he never knew about it until much later. Obama Lied??? Atty. General Holder in May said he never heard about F & F until a few weeks ago. Did Obama know about it in March and Holder did not know about it until May?

One or both of them are lying.

[songsmith]

[So then you must really like companies like Koch Industries and Sinclair Oil?

Nope. The Koch Bros. got their business from their uber-rich DADDY, and Harry Ford Sinclair died in 1956. If you think any of those guys ever had coal dirt or Texas crude under their fingernails, you need to look up the phrase "manual labor." Thanks for making my point more clear.

[lonewolf]

[So then you must really like companies like Koch Industries and Sinclair Oil?

Nope. The Koch Bros. got their business from their uber-rich DADDY, and Harry Ford Sinclair died in 1956. If you think any of those guys ever had coal dirt or Texas crude under their fingernails, you need to look up the phrase "manual labor." Thanks for making my point more clear.

I see. They were supposed to disband their companies and start over, hmm? Perhaps give the companies to a horde of whining socialists whose 2nd most important concern is which to get the latest of: ipad or iphone.

Speaking of that. A few years ago...I believe it was around the 2008 election...i predicted dire straits for the economy caused by debt which would eventually lead to a mild version of a Mad Max world. I see that things are coming along right on schedule. No rioting in the streets yet...but give them time. Like I keep hearing...they're just getting started.

The federal reserve can't continue to print money forever and eventually, we will fly headlong right into the debt brick wall. The economy will descend even further into the abyss and the now-relatively-peaceful OWS crowd won't be so peaceful anymore.

Once again, the fed has set June as their cutoff date for advanced money printing to delay the inevitable crash. That will only make it worse in the end as they will have inflated the dollar to worthlessness.

In the meantime, I expect that the economy will continue to languish and perhaps drift downard.

The antiquated keynesian economics will have taken its biggest victim.

And there will be Johnny, outside his log cabin on the hill, chopping wood.

[songsmith]

[
I see. They were supposed to disband their companies and start over, hmm?

(portions of I-told-you-so stuff that hasn't yet happened clipped for space)

In the meantime, I expect that the economy will continue to languish and perhaps drift downard.

The antiquated keynesian economics will have taken its biggest victim.

And there will be Johnny, outside his log cabin on the hill, chopping wood.

What happened to 'all rich people worked super-hard, and deserve to rule over us?' It makes about as much sense as 'all poor people are just lazy,' or 'we OWE the rich for creating jobs.'

Yes, as long as wages remain in the basement, nobody will have money for anything but the absolute necessities, consumer spending will not drive the economy at the rate it did pre-2007, and the economy will suffer.

Incidentally, the scene where I'm chopping wood in front of my cabin? I genuinely like the sound of that! In the words of a prominent conservative former-genius, "...Country boy can survive..." Abject rural poverty has it's perks!

[lonewolf]

What happened to 'all rich people worked super-hard, and deserve to rule over us?' It makes about as much sense as 'all poor people are just lazy,' or 'we OWE the rich for creating jobs.'

I don't know...you'll have to ask whomever wrote that.

I never use "all" for generalizations unless I use my sarcasm & facetiousness warning label.

[Hawk]

Just for you guys who like to let us know when the Dow is down. Apparently that is what you like as you haven't posted this...

Dow, Nasdaq finish ahead for 2011
The S&P 500 and Nasdaq enjoy their best weekly gains in 2 years as strong earnings for Google and a new Apple iPhone boost stocks. US retail sales are better than expected. Commodities jump as the dollar fades. Energy shares rise.

[songsmith]

Hey, all I ever hear from cons is that people who are rich deserve to be, and all poor people deserve to be. They ignore the ease with which many rich folks attained their fortune, especially capitalists, who should never be confused with entrepreneurs. However, conservatives always mention people who abuse the system FIRST when discussing welfare and such. It's an easy mistake, especially if you follow rightwing media, who's been demonizing the poor for many years.

[lonewolf]

Just for you guys who like to let us know when the Dow is down. Apparently that is what you like as you haven't posted this...

Dow, Nasdaq finish ahead for 2011
The S&P 500 and Nasdaq enjoy their best weekly gains in 2 years as strong earnings for Google and a new Apple iPhone boost stocks. US retail sales are better than expected. Commodities jump as the dollar fades. Energy shares rise.

I don't generally bother posting the daily gyrations of the market, but now that you mentioned it...

Yes, this is called a sucker's rally. The smart money isn't done raping IRAs yet and wants to sucker the rest of the retail investors' money back into the market. Judging by your post, they are succeeding.

The headline is very misleading because the DJIA is still 1200 points off its high of 1286 set back in early May. Volume during this rally is exceedingly low which provides very little support during the next downturn. This, along with "Commodities jump as the dollar fades" tells me we are going lower soon. The long term trend is still lower.

We will see DJIA under 10,000 before we see it above 13,000.

[lonewolf]

Hey, all I ever hear from cons is that people who are rich deserve to be, and all poor people deserve to be. They ignore the ease with which many rich folks attained their fortune, especially capitalists, who should never be confused with entrepreneurs. However, conservatives always mention people who abuse the system FIRST when discussing welfare and such. It's an easy mistake, especially if you follow rightwing media, who's been demonizing the poor for many years.

I don't say that...my observations of tenants when I tolerated being a landlord was that "Rich people tend to do things that keep them rich and poor people tend to do things that keep them poor". Not all of them, but many of them.

A person who uses the expression "its only money" probably doesn't have any and probably never will...or at least, not for long.

I have heard many stories of poor people who won millions in the lottery, went thru it like Brewster's Millions and in short order, ended up without a pot to piss in.

[Hawk]

Hey, all I ever hear from cons is that people who are rich deserve to be, and all poor people deserve to be. They ignore the ease with which many rich folks attained their fortune, especially capitalists, who should never be confused with entrepreneurs. However, conservatives always mention people who abuse the system FIRST when discussing welfare and such. It's an easy mistake, especially if you follow rightwing media, who's been demonizing the poor for many years.

I don't say that...my observations of tenants when I tolerated being a landlord was that "Rich people tend to do things that keep them rich and poor people tend to do things that keep them poor". Not all of them, but many of them.

A person who uses the expression "its only money" probably doesn't have any and probably never will...or at least, not for long.

I have heard many stories of poor people who won millions in the lottery, went thru it like Brewster's Millions and in short order, ended up without a pot to piss in.

Proving a point that I have tried to make more than once. For the most part, the conservatives on RP are intelligent people. You (and the rest of the right wing conservatives) can't understand why all people aren't as smart as you. You judge less intelligent people as though they ARE as smart as you, but they are just lazy, or they don't care.


Some might be lazy, but some can only achieve a given level of success that's not up to YOUR personal standards. I think some successful, intelligent people don't give themselves enough credit for the success they have achieved and that leaves them with the silly notion that, hey, If I can do it anyone and everyone can do it.

Some people can only handle simple jobs and that's a fact. And those jobs don't pay enough to provide for a family and health care. So either charity or government needs to help out. That's what a decent society would / should do.