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songsmith
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Post by songsmith »

undercoverjoe wrote:Yes, but why should they care what some government has to say or not say about it.

Yes, but I should not have to pay for it. People who disagree with it on religious reasons should not have to pay for it either.

No

No, this bloated government owns over 30% of the land. Ridiculous.

No, not Constitutional at the federal level. Let the states do it.

Clarify question.

Needs to provide ID as stated in that little ole Constitution.

Already happens daily. We are basically a social democracy.

I will answer any question any way I want to, and your presumptions prove nothing.
Thanks buddy. You've made my previous point perfectly. You could have simply stated your yes/no answers, but you have to qualify them, based on your own view. Everything MUST be filtered through you in order for it to be viable. Government, to you, is not the will of the people, because it is not YOUR will all the time. We govern via democracy, and sometimes that goes against what you want, but if you don't want it, that makes it wrong and dangerous.
Gays can marry, you say, but the govt can't make the choice. You are utterly alone on your side of the fence on that one. Your team says that gay marriage is immoral, and an abomination of your God. If you were to carry a pro-gay-marriage sign to a Ron Paul rally, you'd be escorted out (if you're lucky).
Abortion is a right, you say. But you don't pay for it. How many abortions do you think the US govt pays for? I have never personally heard of anyone getting a federal-funded abortion. I have heard of local people paying for it themselves, though. Rightwing media misinformation.
You hate that the govt owns 30% of the land. Read a history book. The govt bought up all that land, taxpayers paid for it. We own it, because we govern ourselves. WE ARE THE GOVERNMENT, if you don't like your current govt, vote them out... if you have enough support from your countrymen, it will change, if a majority of Americans feel differently, too bad for you. That land is NOT there to provide cheap resources so trans-national corporations can exploit them. It belongs to all of us, not the richest. You couldn't even approve the question as it stood.
Your answer that federal healthcare isn't constitutional shows that I must accept YOUR definition of what is, in fact, constitutional. Everything is measured against The Libertarian's yardstick, no other definition is possible. Exactly my point. Incidentally, Barack Hussein Obama taught constitutional law, and edited the Harvard Law Review. Your qualifications are...?
To clarify the question you didn't get: Do Americans have a collective right to, say, get tired of paying so much profit to gasoline speculators, and bypass the existing system, creating a non-profit or low-profit system using govt resources, or are we constitutionally bound to keep paying too much to oil co's and Wall St?
And of course you're going to say the President has to keep jumping through your hoops. You outrank him, just by being Joe. King Joe, Emperor of the Cosmos. Thanks again, my original point that you require complete unyielding control is now the loudest, brightest object in the room.
Finally, if you believe and support that liberal thought is both allowed and viable, exactly which liberal idea do you accept (even reluctantly), much less support? Why do you reject the results of the 2008 election? Why do you support the Tea Party?

You have to wonder, if Libertarians are so tolerant of others' ideas, why don't they ever say that?
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Post by lonewolf »

songsmith wrote:
undercoverjoe wrote:Libertarians only get to "lord" over themselves. They get to make their own decisions about themselves. .
Joe, answer these questions directly, yes or no:

Should gay people be allowed to marry?
Yes, assuming that their church says its OK.

Government should not recognize or have a preference for a religious union of any kind, including traditional marriage.
songsmith wrote:Should women have a right to choose termination of a pregnancy?
Yes, but only if their state law permits it.

Each state should be allowed to decide the legality of abortion for itself through its own legislature.
songsmith wrote:Is Islam detrimental to our way of life?
Yes.

My personal opinion is that Islam and Christianity cannot and will not peacefully coexist. I really don't care who started it or who is next on the retaliation list or what percentage of either religion is fanatic, the aforementioned statement is cast in concrete.

Since that statement is true and I live in the Christian west, and we have been attacked here, the only logical answer is yes.
songsmith wrote:Should Americans be allowed to keep our public lands pristine and free of privatization and stripping of natural resources, if that's how they vote?
Yes for publicly owned property.

If the government owns the land, they can dictate what happens on it.
I personally think we should sell the Grand Canyon to the Chinese to clear our debt with them.
songsmith wrote:Do Americans have the right to create and fund a healthcare delivery system for the poor and elderly, if that's how they vote?
NO...unless the vote you speak of is for a constitutional amendment that makes it specifically constitutional. As it stands, this is the purview of the states.
songsmith wrote:Do Americans have the right to form any entity that would directly compete with business, if it provided needed service at a lesser personal cost, or protected them from exploitation or profiteering?
NO...unless the vote you speak of is for a constitutional amendment that makes it specifically constitutional. (See Post Office)
songsmith wrote:Does the president have to constantly provide additional forms of ID, because you personally do not believe him?
No.

I suggest that any proposed candidate for the offices of President and Vice-President of the United States should be required to provide bona-fide, uncontested proof of natural U.S. birth before being accepted as a candidate. I think it would make a really cool traditional photo op like granting the Thanksgiving turkey a pardon.

If somebody provides indisputable evidence that Obama was not naturally born in the US, he should be immediately impeached and tried. If found guilty, he should be removed from office and then he and anybody involved should be prosecuted for whatever charges they can muster.
songsmith wrote:If Americans, as prescribed in the Constitution, use their vote to empower their representative gov't in a liberal way, does that vote count, or is it illegitimate?
Yes, of course the people's vote counts as far as who goes to DC to represent them.

That doesn't give the idiots they voted for the power to run roughshod over the Constitution and enact any kind of legislation they please.

In typical liberal fashion, your questions were both loaded and/or had an illogical context. I suggest that you apply for a position with a major network polling team, preferably NBC. I hope that my attempts to explain my view following my answers are helpful in providing liberal progressives a better insight on libertarians. Its not so much a Darwinistic view as it is a view of the role of government and also which government.
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Post by lonewolf »

Oh yea...and Steve...all gambling should be legal.

I'm not so sure about wearing green jello, though... :lol:
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Post by Hawk »

undercoverjoe wrote:Bill, I do not think RP is a place for dissertations. How about a simple question, one or two at at time?

On the drug issue, I think that the organized crime, vast police state and black hole of money incarcerating users are a much worse thing than people being allowed to take drugs.
In other words you can't !

undercover has never made a more than 5 sentence post ? HUH !
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Post by Hawk »

Okay Joe, one question at a time. Do you want race segregation back in the private sector ? Whether it's for a job or for purchasing something ? Ron and Rand Paul say that's the way it should be should the owner want it that way. You ?
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Post by lonewolf »

Hawk wrote:Okay Joe, one question at a time. Do you want race segregation back in the private sector ? Whether it's for a job or for purchasing something ? Ron and Rand Paul say that's the way it should be should the owner want it that way. You ?
Are you as good at firing those questions as you are at loading them?
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Post by Hawk »

lonewolf wrote:
Hawk wrote:Okay Joe, one question at a time. Do you want race segregation back in the private sector ? Whether it's for a job or for purchasing something ? Ron and Rand Paul say that's the way it should be should the owner want it that way. You ?
Are you as good at firing those questions as you are at loading them?

A loaded question ? To someone who said liberals would eat Obama's shit ? Too bad... I was wondering if he eats Ron Paul's shit ?


I wonder if Joe picks and chooses Libertarian stances and principles. Or does he adhere to all of them ? It's to easy to pick something like drugs and say you are for legalization. Why should the difficult stances be ignored ? Or should I assume he doesn't want anyone to know ?
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Post by sstuckey »

lonewolf wrote:Oh yea...and Steve...all gambling should be legal.

I'm not so sure about wearing green jello, though... :lol:
Hey Jeff you never know...you might look good in green! ha ha ha Regardless of your stance....right wing...left wing....chicken wing... Everyone have a safe and happy Memorial Day!! :D
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Post by lonewolf »

Hawk wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
Hawk wrote:Okay Joe, one question at a time. Do you want race segregation back in the private sector ? Whether it's for a job or for purchasing something ? Ron and Rand Paul say that's the way it should be should the owner want it that way. You ?
Are you as good at firing those questions as you are at loading them?

A loaded question ? To someone who said liberals would eat Obama's shit ? Too bad... I was wondering if he eats Ron Paul's shit ?


I wonder if Joe picks and chooses Libertarian stances and principles. Or does he adhere to all of them ? It's to easy to pick something like drugs and say you are for legalization. Why should the difficult stances be ignored ? Or should I assume he doesn't want anyone to know ?
Yes loaded and stewed to the gills.

The Pauls do not want race segregation back in the private sector. They are opposed to laws telling people what they can and cannot do with their own property. If somebody chooses to segregate their own property, that is their business.

Thankfully, in today's society, that would be bad business.
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Post by Hawk »

lonewolf wrote:
Hawk wrote:
lonewolf wrote: Are you as good at firing those questions as you are at loading them?

A loaded question ? To someone who said liberals would eat Obama's shit ? Too bad... I was wondering if he eats Ron Paul's shit ?


I wonder if Joe picks and chooses Libertarian stances and principles. Or does he adhere to all of them ? It's to easy to pick something like drugs and say you are for legalization. Why should the difficult stances be ignored ? Or should I assume he doesn't want anyone to know ?
Yes loaded and stewed to the gills.

The Pauls do not want race segregation back in the private sector. They are opposed to laws telling people what they can and cannot do with their own property. If somebody chooses to segregate their own property, that is their business.

Thankfully, in today's society, that would be bad business.
Then you live in a fantasy world. Move South and see the love for all races...

What is the difference if Liberterians want it OR if they want others to have the ability to have it ? I see it as a huge step backwards.
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Post by Banned »

Hawk wrote:Okay Joe, one question at a time. Do you want race segregation back in the private sector ? Whether it's for a job or for purchasing something ? Ron and Rand Paul say that's the way it should be should the owner want it that way. You ?
Does Bill have the right to pick and choose who he wants in his band? Do we need a new governmental bureaucracy to regulate who Bill hires in his band? Bill would want one.

The Pauls want Bill to have the ability to choose who ever he wants without the government ever getting involved. So do I.
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Post by Banned »

Hawk wrote:
Move South and see the love for all races...
Going to start a new government department of love? Going to enforce love?

Bill, do you want to be the Minister of Love? Government work has good benefits and lots of vacation days.
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Post by Hawk »

undercoverjoe wrote:
Hawk wrote:Okay Joe, one question at a time. Do you want race segregation back in the private sector ? Whether it's for a job or for purchasing something ? Ron and Rand Paul say that's the way it should be should the owner want it that way. You ?
Does Bill have the right to pick and choose who he wants in his band? Do we need a new governmental bureaucracy to regulate who Bill hires in his band? Bill would want one.

The Pauls want Bill to have the ability to choose who ever he wants without the government ever getting involved. So do I.
Can't or won't answer the question ? ! ! ! Missed answering by a MILE !

The Pauls want business OWNERS to say who can come in the door based on race. I don't want that ! Do you ?

I have NO problem choosing (hiring practices) based on talent. I am against affirmative action. Hiring one based on talent is NOT racist... Poor try Joe, very poor try.

Now try again.
Last edited by Hawk on Sunday May 29, 2011, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Hawk »

undercoverjoe wrote:
Hawk wrote:
Move South and see the love for all races...
Going to start a new government department of love? Going to enforce love?

Bill, do you want to be the Minister of Love? Government work has good benefits and lots of vacation days.
My point to lonewolf was that, down South, Hundreds of restaurants (for a business example) will be in line to outlaw Blacks and Latinos. Agree or disagree Joe ? Is that a good thing or a bad thing Joe ?
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Post by Banned »

Hawk wrote:
undercoverjoe wrote:
Hawk wrote:
Move South and see the love for all races...
Going to start a new government department of love? Going to enforce love?

Bill, do you want to be the Minister of Love? Government work has good benefits and lots of vacation days.
My point to lonewolf was that, down South, Hundreds of restaurants (for a business example) will be in line to outlaw Blacks and Latinos. Agree or disagree Joe ? Is that a good thing or a bad thing Joe ?
Just like you have the right to hire or not hire a musician, any private business owner has the right to do the same. You should have to freedom to do whatever you want with your life, home and business. If you can't understand that, its your problem.
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Post by Banned »

If I had a business, I would not do business with socialists and liberals. Do I have that right? I think so. Would I lose some business, yes, but it would be worth it just to piss them off.
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Post by Hawk »

undercoverjoe wrote:If I had a business, I would not do business with socialists and liberals. Do I have that right? I think so. Would I lose some business, yes, but it would be worth it just to piss them off.
Still a NON answer.

The question is based on race Joe.

You can say, "I agree private business should be allowed to be racist.

You can say, "I disagree, private business should not be allowed to be racist.

OR, I'm afraid to publicly admit...I eat Ron Paul's shit.
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Post by Banned »

Guess Kenyan ass lickers can't read English.
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Post by Hawk »

undercoverjoe wrote:Guess Kenyan ass lickers can't read English.


Still a NON answer.

The question is based on race Joe.

You can say, "I agree private business should be allowed to be racist.

You can say, "I disagree, private business should not be allowed to be racist.

OR, I'm afraid to publicly admit...I eat Ron Paul's shit.
_________________

I'd like to move on to the next question Joe. To prove how insane Ron Paul is. But so far, by your inability to admit what you actually believe, you are helping me prove that very point. Thanks.
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Post by Banned »

Bill, you just are not getting it. I will never answer you loaded questions. You set up a false choices in your illogical and preposterous questions.


Here is what I want to say:

You should have the freedom to do whatever you want with your life, home and business.


Would bigger font help?
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Post by Hawk »

undercoverjoe wrote:Bill, you just are not getting it. I will never answer you loaded questions. You set up a false choices in your illogical and preposterous questions.


Here is what I want to say:

You should have the freedom to do whatever you want with your life, home and business.


Would bigger font help?
I get it, Racism in the private sector is your version of freedom. And you do eat Ron Paul's shit.

So isn't that a little hypocritical. Many minorities will LOOSE their freedom. HuH, so as long as you get your freedom, there is no problem if others LOOSE theirs ? Okay, Well, not okay with me.

Now, Ron Paul is against all public transportation. So we might expect to go back to who can and can't ride the bus. What is the Libertarian plan if too many minorities (especially down south) can't get a job because of their race and NO government assistance. And Ron Paul wants all schools to be private. So we might expect that they can eliminate students based on race, Just trying to follow your stance to a conclusion Joe. Help me out here...
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Post by lonewolf »

Hawk wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
Hawk wrote:
A loaded question ? To someone who said liberals would eat Obama's shit ? Too bad... I was wondering if he eats Ron Paul's shit ?


I wonder if Joe picks and chooses Libertarian stances and principles. Or does he adhere to all of them ? It's to easy to pick something like drugs and say you are for legalization. Why should the difficult stances be ignored ? Or should I assume he doesn't want anyone to know ?
Yes loaded and stewed to the gills.

The Pauls do not want race segregation back in the private sector. They are opposed to laws telling people what they can and cannot do with their own property. If somebody chooses to segregate their own property, that is their business.

Thankfully, in today's society, that would be bad business.
Then you live in a fantasy world. Move South and see the love for all races...

What is the difference if Liberterians want it OR if they want others to have the ability to have it ? I see it as a huge step backwards.
Bill, if you want lessons in logic as applied to groupings, exceptions and other word descriptions, I will have to charge you a fee. If you were to make an indication like the above assumption on an IQ test, you would get that question WRONG!

Rather than try to drill you on the finer points of logic, I will try to explain it in terms that you are familiar with:

Saying that the Pauls want race segregation because they oppose laws that infringe on property rights is like saying that people who support legal abortion want more baby killing.

You are probably right...there would probably be more of it in the south, but why should you care Bill? You are a resident of Pennsylvania, not Alabama. What happens down south is none of your or my business.
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Post by Hawk »

lonewolf wrote:
Hawk wrote:
lonewolf wrote: Yes loaded and stewed to the gills.

The Pauls do not want race segregation back in the private sector. They are opposed to laws telling people what they can and cannot do with their own property. If somebody chooses to segregate their own property, that is their business.

Thankfully, in today's society, that would be bad business.
Then you live in a fantasy world. Move South and see the love for all races...

What is the difference if Liberterians want it OR if they want others to have the ability to have it ? I see it as a huge step backwards.
Bill, if you want lessons in logic as applied to groupings, exceptions and other word descriptions, I will have to charge you a fee. If you were to make an indication like the above assumption on an IQ test, you would get that question WRONG!

Rather than try to drill you on the finer points of logic, I will try to explain it in terms that you are familiar with:

Saying that the Pauls want race segregation because they oppose laws that infringe on property rights is like saying that people who support legal abortion want more baby killing.

You are probably right...there would probably be more of it in the south, but why should you care Bill? You are a resident of Pennsylvania, not Alabama. What happens down south is none of your or my business.
Every man is my neighbor and my concern...especially if they are Americans. I don't care where thy live.

You are right, saying one wants legalized abortion does NOT mean they want more of it. HOWEVER they do help enable it ! So I am saying they enable racism and I am against it. If you are for enabling racism then that is akin to being racist. Never mind your condescending crap about logic as it was damn spin...
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Post by lonewolf »

Hawk wrote: I get it, Racism in the private sector is your version of freedom.
One could argue that forcing somebody on their own property to serve a person from another race whether they want to or not under penalty of law is a more extreme form of racism and hypocrisy.
Last edited by lonewolf on Sunday May 29, 2011, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by lonewolf »

Hawk wrote:Never mind your condescending crap about logic as it was damn spin...
Hmmmm...condescending...I usually hear that word when somebody doesn't have any idea what I'm talking about.

I'm sure that Paul (Rainey) could explain it better than I...that's his field.
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