The great thing about all of this is that it makes people think long and hard about religion and our origins.
But what if by some strange twist that God in his infinite wisdom had created another set of beings? Begins that were superior in architecture, writings and intelligence? And what if God is just waiting for the right time to allow these beings to come back and maybe teach us and possibly lead us into another direction.
The other thing you have to thing about as well is the Armeggedon story. Honestly, the way things are going....I am not sure we are not too far away from another economic collapse that could so colossal that it would make the Crash of 1939 like small.
While there is a passage in the Bible in which Jesus says, "There will be wars and rumors of war this is not the end. No man knoweth the hour in which the Son of Man will return."
(Dont ask me what chapter and verse but I think it is in Matthew).
This is the other thing that kinda bothers me about some preachers and evangelist....they are constantly trying to predict and in my opinion scare the "living hell" out of people into salvation.
They preach about death, the rapture and the hell on Earth that will happen when this all comes to pass.
I know what I believe and that is that there is a God who loves me and sent his Son to die on a cross for my sins. While I am totally far from being any kind of "perfect" Christian and a constant churchgoer, He knows my heart.
If there are superior beings that God created before us or came after the creation of the Earth, then I hope we are able to find them. That could really settle a lot of the speculation of the what ifs, what was' and everything...
About religion...
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joltinjeff
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About religion
Having talent is one thing....what you do with it is something else
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KeithReynolds
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War has gone on for thousands of years. Its nothing new, in fact...its gotten better in some ways. In the way of countries arent slaughtering eachother for land much.
People who say "we are in the end times" have been saying that for a thousand years. We're still here.
By saying "the world is gonna end soon!", gives certain people power.
They prey on the fears of the common man just like they have for thousands of years. Its all about control.
Shit, when barcodes came out, people went NUTS! They KNEW it was the 'mark of the beast'. Was it? nope.
As the times change, the armageddon claims change to fit the times.
People who say "we are in the end times" have been saying that for a thousand years. We're still here.
By saying "the world is gonna end soon!", gives certain people power.
They prey on the fears of the common man just like they have for thousands of years. Its all about control.
Shit, when barcodes came out, people went NUTS! They KNEW it was the 'mark of the beast'. Was it? nope.
As the times change, the armageddon claims change to fit the times.
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dbdrummer89
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I was wondering the same thing.songsmith wrote:Thanks, but I'm wondering why this thread is six feet wide on my monitor?
Jeff,
That's precisely why I love debating things like this. Anyone that claims to be religious OR non-religious without knowing why makes no sense to me. "Hey I'm a *insert religion/athiesm here*" "O cool. Why do you believe that?" "I dunno. Always been that way"
I don't care how outlandish your beliefs are but if you can't defend them coherently in even simple conversation, let alone a debate, you don't deserve to call yourself _____.
Kieth,
True, war has always been around and will be around forever (despite the extreme amount of optimism that some seem to have). But I would like to add to Jeff's point. While full-out wars aren't nearly as common as they were a few hundred years ago, they certainly have the potential to be exponentially worse. If there's one thing that humans are good at it's killing each other, and right now we're in our prime. Thousands of lives could be gone in an instant, vaporized into oblivion. Take that and multiply it by the number of nuclear arms in the world today to get a rough estimate, and that's not even considering the environmental repercussions.
For the first time in human history, we have the potential to absolutely destroy our own world, and that should scare the piss out of everyone that even knows the phrase nuclear warfare, regardless of what side you're on.
War might not happen as much, but the stakes are much much higher.
I should probably clarify: I don't think you should stop worshipping or believing in whatever version of God you choose, in fact, I fully support people's spirituality, and even admire it. When Grandma kneels to pray, how can that be anything but helpful? But Grandma never treated me like less of a person because I'm not Christian. She didn't look down on me, or anyone for that matter. She didn't proselytize, or browbeat, or attempt to enforce her 'morals' or 'values' on me. She valued her own relationship with a higher power, not piety, and did not force-feed me. I think she knew that Christianity without Freewill is simply slavery, not to God, but to man's ulterior motives, like control.
I have no qualms with the basic tenets of Christianity; the Golden Rule, etc. It's the modern Evangelicals pointing their fingers, that tend to make me point a certain finger of mine, that I will always oppose strenuously.
I have no qualms with the basic tenets of Christianity; the Golden Rule, etc. It's the modern Evangelicals pointing their fingers, that tend to make me point a certain finger of mine, that I will always oppose strenuously.
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KeithReynolds
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the reason the thread was LOOONG is because of the "BOOOOOOOOOBS" comment thats a mile long that Jeff left. 
Right after he posted that, the thread went LOOOOOOONG. Shorten your "BOOOOOOBS" Jeff!!!
Nuclear arms now, are the equilvalent to the MILLIONS of soldiers with swords that would destroy towns and countries in the past. Same effect. Total destruction. They burned towns to the ground and murdered everyone in the town. Just like nukes now, except people actually used to have to DO their fighting, and not sit back and press buttons and shoot rockets. We only have ground wars now for show.
Imagine seeing a million bloodthirsty men with swords running to your town. You'd know it would be obliterated. There would be nothing left.
We've just become lazy with war, but with better weapons. There were no death buttons in the past...but death was just the same.
Right after he posted that, the thread went LOOOOOOONG. Shorten your "BOOOOOOBS" Jeff!!!
Nuclear arms now, are the equilvalent to the MILLIONS of soldiers with swords that would destroy towns and countries in the past. Same effect. Total destruction. They burned towns to the ground and murdered everyone in the town. Just like nukes now, except people actually used to have to DO their fighting, and not sit back and press buttons and shoot rockets. We only have ground wars now for show.
Imagine seeing a million bloodthirsty men with swords running to your town. You'd know it would be obliterated. There would be nothing left.
We've just become lazy with war, but with better weapons. There were no death buttons in the past...but death was just the same.
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joltinjeff
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KeithReynolds wrote:the reason the thread was LOOONG is because of the "BOOOOOOOOOBS" comment thats a mile long that Jeff left.
Right after he posted that, the thread went LOOOOOOONG. Shorten your "BOOOOOOBS" Jeff!!!
Nuclear arms now, are the equilvalent to the MILLIONS of soldiers with swords that would destroy towns and countries in the past. Same effect. Total destruction. They burned towns to the ground and murdered everyone in the town. Just like nukes now, except people actually used to have to DO their fighting, and not sit back and press buttons and shoot rockets. We only have ground wars now for show.
Imagine seeing a million bloodthirsty men with swords running to your town. You'd know it would be obliterated. There would be nothing left.
We've just become lazy with war, but with better weapons. There were no death buttons in the past...but death was just the same.
Breast reduction in the works!!!!
boobs!Having talent is one thing....what you do with it is something else
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f.sciarrillo
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BOOBIES! I saw some good ones today. (Give me a second, oh yeah). O.k, I am better.
I only have one thing to say - Dec. 21, 2012. That is the day the Mayan calendar ends. I don't believe the world is going to end at that time, Nostradamus predicted it to be 3750, but it will be interesting to see what Dec. 22, 2012 is like. Mostly because there are so many "Millerites" out there now stating that the world is going to crash and burn that day.
Let me state this much: I do believe that there will be a second coming. But I do not believe it is going to Dec. 21, 2012. We aren't close enough to what the prophesies say. Do I wish it to be 2012? Yes. Do I want it to be? Yes. Why? because as a Christian that is the best thing that could ever happen to me. I pray for the ability to see it in my life time, although I don't think it will happen.
I only have one thing to say - Dec. 21, 2012. That is the day the Mayan calendar ends. I don't believe the world is going to end at that time, Nostradamus predicted it to be 3750, but it will be interesting to see what Dec. 22, 2012 is like. Mostly because there are so many "Millerites" out there now stating that the world is going to crash and burn that day.
Let me state this much: I do believe that there will be a second coming. But I do not believe it is going to Dec. 21, 2012. We aren't close enough to what the prophesies say. Do I wish it to be 2012? Yes. Do I want it to be? Yes. Why? because as a Christian that is the best thing that could ever happen to me. I pray for the ability to see it in my life time, although I don't think it will happen.
Music Rocks!
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KeithReynolds
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dbdrummer89
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Kieth,
While the psychological impact would certainly be huge, I think there's a gross overestimation on the number of people serving in ancient and pre-industrial armies. There were thousands, but even a force of 100,000 descending on a single town would be a bit much.
It's really a moot point, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway
The media has way overplayed that whole Mayan thing as well. I believe (and I feel pretty confident about this but not absolutely so) that the Mayan calendar does NOT end. Certainly a cycle ends, but if memory serves, the calendar simply repeats itself. It's analogous to a year ending in our Gregorian calendar.
While the psychological impact would certainly be huge, I think there's a gross overestimation on the number of people serving in ancient and pre-industrial armies. There were thousands, but even a force of 100,000 descending on a single town would be a bit much.
It's really a moot point, but I thought I'd throw it out there anyway
The media has way overplayed that whole Mayan thing as well. I believe (and I feel pretty confident about this but not absolutely so) that the Mayan calendar does NOT end. Certainly a cycle ends, but if memory serves, the calendar simply repeats itself. It's analogous to a year ending in our Gregorian calendar.
Belief in God and an accompanying religion adds meaning to life when there is the possibility that human life is meaningless. We'll never really know, but Blaise Pascal offers an interesting thought in what is known as "Pascals Wager":
The philosophy uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, note 233):
1."God is, or He is not"
2.A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3.According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
4.You must wager. It is not optional.
5.Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
6.Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
As for organized religion, I doubt God will punish those who didn't join the right club. Who knows though. On South Park everyone except the Mormons went to hell.
The philosophy uses the following logic (excerpts from Pensées, part III, note 233):
1."God is, or He is not"
2.A Game is being played... where heads or tails will turn up.
3.According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.
4.You must wager. It is not optional.
5.Let us weigh the gain and the loss in wagering that God is. Let us estimate these two chances. If you gain, you gain all; if you lose, you lose nothing.
6.Wager, then, without hesitation that He is. (...) There is here an infinity of an infinitely happy life to gain, a chance of gain against a finite number of chances of loss, and what you stake is finite. And so our proposition is of infinite force, when there is the finite to stake in a game where there are equal risks of gain and of loss, and the infinite to gain.
As for organized religion, I doubt God will punish those who didn't join the right club. Who knows though. On South Park everyone except the Mormons went to hell.
"Music, the greatest good that mortals know, and all of heaven we have below." -Joseph Addison
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KeithReynolds
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The best part about this whole thing, is some people have deleted me from facebook because of my original thoughts I posted on there. HAHAHAHA!!!
Maybe my follow-up thoughts here didnt help. I find it hilarious how someone can be looked down upon so much just for not believing the same thing someone else does. Apparently people can only be friends if they fall in line with eachother. How pathetic is that??
Just more proof how they like to have control. Take a look inside those peoples' lives, and you find far worse things in them.
Some people will only be happy when everyone believes what they do.
Maybe my follow-up thoughts here didnt help.
I find it hilarious how someone can be looked down upon so much just for not believing the same thing someone else does. Apparently people can only be friends if they fall in line with eachother. How pathetic is that?? Just more proof how they like to have control. Take a look inside those peoples' lives, and you find far worse things in them.
Some people will only be happy when everyone believes what they do.
Most people have decided what they want to believe and don't want to think about it anymore. If you make them think, it shakes their faith and they risk their world falling down. That's why they get mad and delete you on facebook. Personally, I like to think about it, and I too have pissed some people off. Once you start looking into the historical texts, organized religion is exposed for the scam that it is, and the people involved don't like that.
Thinking did come in handy once for me though. When a couple of Witnesses came to my door, I started asking them a bunch of questions about history and philosophers (in a very inquisitive and non confrontational way) and they got real nervous. It was really funny that they were trying to get away from me. They left without even leaving any literature.
Thinking did come in handy once for me though. When a couple of Witnesses came to my door, I started asking them a bunch of questions about history and philosophers (in a very inquisitive and non confrontational way) and they got real nervous. It was really funny that they were trying to get away from me. They left without even leaving any literature.
"Music, the greatest good that mortals know, and all of heaven we have below." -Joseph Addison
If the Ancient Astronaut Theory ends up being true, and we were genetically engineered by aliens, then the Creationists would be partly correct, except that our creator would be an extra terrestrial biologic entity.
Seriously though, remember what Pascal said (According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.). Lately, I've stopped torturing people around me that don't want to think. It is better to let them live in ignorant bliss. In a way, I envy them, and maybe someday, I will join them.
Seriously though, remember what Pascal said (According to reason, you can defend neither of the propositions.). Lately, I've stopped torturing people around me that don't want to think. It is better to let them live in ignorant bliss. In a way, I envy them, and maybe someday, I will join them.
"Music, the greatest good that mortals know, and all of heaven we have below." -Joseph Addison
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bassist_25
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I always liked Pascal's Wager...much more than other arguments, such as the cosmological argument and watchmaker argument. I always had a problem with the cosmological argument because it sets up a number of propositions and then its conclusion is to contradict those propositions. I like the watchmaker's argument, but a lot of contemporary systems theory has shown that closed systems, even complex ones, do have a tendency to become self-sustaining entities that naturally flow towards a state of equilibrium.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
Great topic Keith. I read most posts, but not all of them.
I'll start out by saying I believe in God and in Jesus Christ.
The Bible is incredibly complex , as is science.
Religion is made from MEN, not God! And men sometimes get it wrong. So don't blame God when a religious sect screws up.
The Devil does not make you do anything - ever ! So Satan cannot be blamed for your bad ways. You have a free will.
Man is very limited to just five senses, and even insects and lower animals have senses developed way beyond mans. A dog's smell. A rabbit's hearing. Insects that see more light wave lengths than man can. Etc..
Just because your limited senses don't recognise God, is a poor excuse to say He doesn't exist.
I believe science to be a strong force that will eventually parallel the Bible.
Take this quote: 2 Peter 3:8 -> "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."
Einstein's theory of general relativity says space and time are the same thing - Space/Time. Gravity is simply the warping of space/time. According to many theoretical physicists, we can go back in time. We don't have the machines to do it yet, but the possibility does exist. According to these same people, if we can go back in time, we can also go froward to the future.
Also, according to these theorists, this time/space is only in our universe. There could be many universes. So the theory concedes that there may be a place (for lack of a better word) with NO time/space. I believe God always was and always will be. Perhaps He is in the place without time/space. Then this quote would make sense: 2 Peter 3:8 -> "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." If God were in a place without time, He sees our past and future. Is our future predetermined ? No. He gave us a free will. Complex...
He created time/space as a place for man to live along with a free will.
Now layer that with the fact that man lives in a three dimensional world. Yet science says there may be 12 or more dimensions. Man has no awareness of these dimensions, yet science says they exist. Perhaps God is in a dimension beyond our simple three dimensional world.
Why does God let evil exist. Because you have a free will and you can choose. Evil is simply a man making a bad choice relative to hurting himself or others.
Jesus summed it up nicely. Love God and treat others as you would like them to treat you.
As for the history of the Bible. Yes the stories were handed down from generation to generation before being written down. As far as the New Testament, there were many stories, and the Catholics did get together to decide which stories were real and which were not, then the Catholic Bible was written as we have it today. The King James version added some texts that were left out by the Catholics.
I'll start out by saying I believe in God and in Jesus Christ.
The Bible is incredibly complex , as is science.
Religion is made from MEN, not God! And men sometimes get it wrong. So don't blame God when a religious sect screws up.
The Devil does not make you do anything - ever ! So Satan cannot be blamed for your bad ways. You have a free will.
Man is very limited to just five senses, and even insects and lower animals have senses developed way beyond mans. A dog's smell. A rabbit's hearing. Insects that see more light wave lengths than man can. Etc..
Just because your limited senses don't recognise God, is a poor excuse to say He doesn't exist.
I believe science to be a strong force that will eventually parallel the Bible.
Take this quote: 2 Peter 3:8 -> "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."
Einstein's theory of general relativity says space and time are the same thing - Space/Time. Gravity is simply the warping of space/time. According to many theoretical physicists, we can go back in time. We don't have the machines to do it yet, but the possibility does exist. According to these same people, if we can go back in time, we can also go froward to the future.
Also, according to these theorists, this time/space is only in our universe. There could be many universes. So the theory concedes that there may be a place (for lack of a better word) with NO time/space. I believe God always was and always will be. Perhaps He is in the place without time/space. Then this quote would make sense: 2 Peter 3:8 -> "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day." If God were in a place without time, He sees our past and future. Is our future predetermined ? No. He gave us a free will. Complex...
He created time/space as a place for man to live along with a free will.
Now layer that with the fact that man lives in a three dimensional world. Yet science says there may be 12 or more dimensions. Man has no awareness of these dimensions, yet science says they exist. Perhaps God is in a dimension beyond our simple three dimensional world.
Why does God let evil exist. Because you have a free will and you can choose. Evil is simply a man making a bad choice relative to hurting himself or others.
Jesus summed it up nicely. Love God and treat others as you would like them to treat you.
As for the history of the Bible. Yes the stories were handed down from generation to generation before being written down. As far as the New Testament, there were many stories, and the Catholics did get together to decide which stories were real and which were not, then the Catholic Bible was written as we have it today. The King James version added some texts that were left out by the Catholics.
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bassist_25
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KeithReynolds
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KeithReynolds
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Truth is meant to be discovered. It certainly isnt the spoonfed stuff that people have been getting for years. A little research can tell you that.
Do I have the ANSWER? Nope, but Im not out taking money from millions of people saying I, and I alone, have the answer.
Truth comes from questioning. The quest for knowledge. Which is something thats forbidden. Why is that?
"The essence of Christianity is told to us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on"- Frank Zappa
"Faith does not give you answers, it just stops you asking the questions"- Frater Ravus
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence"- Richard Dawkins
Do I have the ANSWER? Nope, but Im not out taking money from millions of people saying I, and I alone, have the answer.
Truth comes from questioning. The quest for knowledge. Which is something thats forbidden. Why is that?
"The essence of Christianity is told to us in the Garden of Eden history. The fruit that was forbidden was on the tree of knowledge. The subtext is, All the suffering you have is because you wanted to find out what was going on"- Frank Zappa
"Faith does not give you answers, it just stops you asking the questions"- Frater Ravus
"Faith is the great cop-out, the great excuse to evade the need to think and evaluate evidence. Faith is belief in spite of, even perhaps because of, the lack of evidence"- Richard Dawkins
Actually, in my business I run into a lot of pastors. And I enjoy discussing God and I have exchanged my views with many pastors. You might be surprised at how many agree with these points regardless of their denomination.KeithReynolds wrote:Awesome post Hawk!!
Youre much more open-minded than many others!
I think youd have a tough time convincing other "believers" of most of what you said though. Its good that youve used your mind and accepted other things as being true too. Alot of others wouldnt dare.
Again, great post sir.
Galileo was considered evil because the silly "men of God" believed the earth was the center of the universe. As they become more enlightened, they welcome science more.
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f.sciarrillo
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Reading this post is really making want to listen to Steve Vai - For the love of god.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt6r5A6_sVA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt6r5A6_sVA
Music Rocks!
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dbdrummer89
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Not to beat a dead horse about this but I sure do love playing the devil's advocate, especially when there's a good debate going.
Larry,
Pascal's wager is great, but it's misused a lot. There are christians out there that think their faith (the 2nd Main Street Church of Christ or whatever) is the "right one," and they use Pascal to say "hey it's either us or atheism. Why not go with US?" which is nothing more than a gross oversimplification of the whole principle Pascal was trying to prove. There's a youtube clip somewhere where it breaks down just Christianity in terms of sects, and there's well over 100, probably 200 different sects; all of them citing Pascal saying "well why not our faith?" People tend to forget his purpose in proposing the wager was about the pure existence of God, not a specific faith.
That's great about the Witnesses too by the way. We had a few come to our practice space while we were goofing off before getting serious one day, and we had Slayer's "Angel of Death" on the stereo. They basically handed us paper and left...good day haha
Hawk: Great post man. I don't know of a lot of people that would outright deny the existence of any supernatural being (some), but the main problem comes in when men try to preach their own ideals in the name of God (cue Dream Theater here).
Lonewolf: That's a whole other debate entirely haha.
I gotta say, after watching a lot of nasty political threads unfold on here it's pretty encouraging to watch one be pretty much totally civil.
Larry,
Pascal's wager is great, but it's misused a lot. There are christians out there that think their faith (the 2nd Main Street Church of Christ or whatever) is the "right one," and they use Pascal to say "hey it's either us or atheism. Why not go with US?" which is nothing more than a gross oversimplification of the whole principle Pascal was trying to prove. There's a youtube clip somewhere where it breaks down just Christianity in terms of sects, and there's well over 100, probably 200 different sects; all of them citing Pascal saying "well why not our faith?" People tend to forget his purpose in proposing the wager was about the pure existence of God, not a specific faith.
That's great about the Witnesses too by the way. We had a few come to our practice space while we were goofing off before getting serious one day, and we had Slayer's "Angel of Death" on the stereo. They basically handed us paper and left...good day haha
Hawk: Great post man. I don't know of a lot of people that would outright deny the existence of any supernatural being (some), but the main problem comes in when men try to preach their own ideals in the name of God (cue Dream Theater here).
Lonewolf: That's a whole other debate entirely haha.
I gotta say, after watching a lot of nasty political threads unfold on here it's pretty encouraging to watch one be pretty much totally civil.
I believe that there is "something" that connects us all, maybe it's in our DNA, or in our soul. I don't know.
Is that "GOD"?
I had this discussion with a good friend the other day, and he turned me on to a movie, "Powder", that has somewhat of the same premise.
"The Case For Christ" was very interesting. I love History, and all of the "DaVinci Code" stuff is absolutely fascinating to me!
Did all of the stuff happen exactly as it is written in the Bible?
I don't care!
I feel good when I go to church.
(I should go more often.)
Is that "GOD"?
I had this discussion with a good friend the other day, and he turned me on to a movie, "Powder", that has somewhat of the same premise.
"The Case For Christ" was very interesting. I love History, and all of the "DaVinci Code" stuff is absolutely fascinating to me!
Did all of the stuff happen exactly as it is written in the Bible?
I don't care!
I feel good when I go to church.
(I should go more often.)
"So many notes, so little time" - Jeff Wallack