About religion...

[KeithReynolds]

This is something I have been thinking about, and I posted on my facebook today. I wanted to post it here, to see how you guys feel about the subject.

"People that blindly believe outrageous things without even caring to examine evidence bother me. Even if the evidence supported their claims, they still dont want to see truth. They blindly believe, which they call "Faith". I prefer to find out WHY & HOW & WHEN instead of blindly believing just because we're "told" to.

They talk about people being created as "non robots", yet blindly believing something IS being a robot. Intelligent Thought is what seperates people from robots. Why dont they realize that?? Why is the process of thinking for yourself and wondering so BAD? Why is that considered evil?

It saddens me to have so many uninformed people in my family who dont care to discover real TRUTH. Just as they pity me for not blindly believing something, I pity them for not using their minds. I would think that God would rather have someone use their minds and WANT to discover the real truth.
I dont think that he would so be pleased with the people that just go with the flow.

It just bothers me that wanting to be enlightened and know truth is looked at as evil and defiant. Doesnt anyone see anything WRONG with that???

I could talk about this stuff for hours. My questions are never answered and are considered as being from Satan, who is there to "deceive man". Too bad I dont believe in Satan!!

He was created BY MAN to have a fall guy for when they did bad things.
They can blame their evil deeds on someone else, who's "job" is to make humans do bad things. Seems pretty damn convenient huh?
NOW, people can do whatever they want and just blame the devil. Creation of the devil just shows you how selfish mankind is.

This is enough for now. Have a wonderful day!"

[f.sciarrillo]

I would answer this; I just don't want to get into a religious debate. Because like politics I am no longer interested in debates, or arguments, about petty things.

By the way, I sent you a friend request.

[KeithReynolds]

People that blindly believe the Bible, dont care to see where it originated from. How thousands of years before that, the same stories were told by other people, but not exactly. So the later version would be considered embellished and changed right?

People that also believe the bible as being the COMPLETE word of God dont believe in radiocarbon dating. They say "humans werent cavemen" and "people werent around 30,000 years ago, the earth is 6,000 years old!".
How can they be so blind, yet say they see the truth??

They say science is fake, that it was created by the devil to disprove God.
They believe the most outrageous stuff that has NO evidence, yet wont believe anything with Real evidence.
They think that we are the only lifeforms in the whole universe, because: "God wouldve mentioned other people. He says he only created us".

Every religion accuses the other of being fake and tools of the devil. They are ALL connected. They all have the same roots...so youre ALL wrong then!
My family belong to a Baptist church. Like Most christians, they HATE catholics. "Catholics got it all wrong, they are false teachers". What I find FUCKING HILARIOUS, is that they say things liek that while holding a King James Version Bible, in which they profess to be the TRUE word.
They DONT realize that the KJV bible was done by the Church Of England..who are CATHOLIC.

Even Before the KJV bible, the roman emperor Constantine (another catholic) assembled a council together to decide what books the commoners were allowed to read. Popes from all over their world came together for this. THEY chose what books you have! They discounted many other books found with their "REAL" books. WHY? they were found in the same place, date to the same times and claim the same things that the commissioned bible does...just in more detail!

So anyway, Christians say Catholics are bad, and false teachers, yet the catholics gave you YOUR bible which you swear is the truth. Anyone see a problem with that?!
Christians dont even care to look to see where the religion originated from. They choose not to see the pagan parallels that run rampant through their religion...yet pagans are bad right?? haha, again it happens!

I believe in God (a creator), but NOT the one Christians believe in. I would hope that the REAL God wouldnt be so cruel in some aspects, yet so loving enough to make sure someone gets their new job they prayed for. Only select people have prayers answered. Even people who pray hard and NEED God to answer their prayers dont get it. Such as Kidnapped kids, raped women, & murdered people. They are all forgotten by God...but he will make damn sure you get that new promotion youve been praying for. What a crock of shit.

Murder is bad right? But its ok when God does it right? The bible is filled of his wrath being carried out on mankind. The church doesnt even follow the "dont kill" thing. Remember the salem witch trials?? What about the thousands of other people put to death by the church who committed "heresy" for not going with the flow? They killed anyone who tried to discover truth. History is filled with it. Just look.

I have much more, but ill let this digest. Im curious to see what you guys think.

[KeithReynolds]

Frank, arent your religion & beliefs worth defending? God thinks it is.
I would think that a belief system is far from "petty things".
I would love to hear any answers to what ive asked.

Usually that just means the person cant say anything about it because theres nothing to say. I get it all the time from my family. They just repeat "Faith", "Devil" and "Hell". As if those are real answers to any of the questions!

[f.sciarrillo]

Yes I am religious, I do believe in god, I pray multiple times a day. But I also find that debates are never a winning battle. It is just two people with who have a different point of view and when the debate is over they will still have that point of view.

You are not all that bad in what you feel though. Going by what you are saying, you would be an agnostic. Which is a middle road and a confusing road. People who are agnostic believe in god, but they want to have proof of it. They only believe what they see and what they hear. It isn't a bad thing, mind you. An agnostic is bound to become a christian sooner or later. I used to be one

What you see in the bible is the same thing that has been said through out the centuries. The stories are a little different by each person who wrote them because there are centuries between them. For example; Matthew was written 900 years after Christ died. At that time the bible was being developed, they didn't have writing tools and everything was from memory, so it is normal to have some differences.

But if you look at it in the big picture. This world had have been created by something. I don't believe that we evolved from fish or apes. I am a creationist. There has never been any scientific facts to prove carbon dating or the big bang. It is all theory.

What I believe is this this world is 6,000 years old, not 6 billion years old. And we were created by god, not a molecule that exploded. Hmmm. I hope I didn't come off arrogant there. That is the last thing I was trying to do.

[Banned]

Well first of all MUSIC is my religion.

I can't stand organized religion. I believe in an all powerful being (God) or beings, that uh, "jump-started" evolution, life and all that good stuff. But with organized religion, it's just another authority having power and influence over your life. Religion is based on "faith" and "beliefs" correct? Then why are religious leaders telling people exactly who, and what to believe? It should be each individual person's beliefs and ideas about the afterlife and spiritual-type things, not what some asshole in a robe tells them to believe. Jeez, I could go on forever haha but I just saw this and thought I would comment. This is just my belief. I'm sure many people disagree which is good, because everyone thinks differently. I just can't stand when those beliefs are thrown at others who don't feel the same.

So, I guess what I'm saying is everybody should do their own thing, and think for themselves, and just not care about what other people wanna believe. I think this would solve alot of problems.

[dbdrummer89]

I know I'm kind of a newbie around here but this is a peeve of mine too so I'm gonna throw in my two cents.

I totally agree that it's hilarious that some hardcore religious people totally fail to see the pagan roots in their OWN RELIGION, especially the Christmas thing. Jesus was most likely probably born in the Spring, nowhere near Christmas. On top of that, the pagan holiday of Candlemas has always been celebrated on December 25th. Coincidence? No. No it's not. It's a known fact that the Catholic church took over the holiday and Christianized it. For some reason it's taboo to discuss it to Christians that are all for Christmas...It's almost like they think its an inherently bad thing. No religious idea is TOTALLY original, everyone's beliefs have evolved from something.

That argument is much much wider than the whole Christmas thing too. It's my own philosophy that you can't truly believe something (especially any religious doctrine) without at least exploring other avenues. You have to prove why other religions don't have it quite right for you in order to feel good about choosing the one you do, and that's something that seems to be totally forgotten.

Have you ever read "On the Genealogy of Morals" by Nietzsche, Kieth? He's one that truly questioned the conventional definitions of good and evil and came up with very interesting conclusions.

[Banned]

I like that the pagan themes in Christianity are being brought up. Not very many Christians I know mention that stuff. Another good example is Samhain now known as All Saints Day on November 1st. That was an ancient Celtic festival celebrating the end of summer and the harvest. But to make it easier for the early Christians to convert pagans, they took Samhain and made it All Saints Day, saying look, your holiday is the same as ours, your celebrating what we are. Clever, but to me this just shows again people forcing their beliefs on others. What's so bad about being different? Why did the Christians feel the need to get the pagans to believe in Jesus? I think it really shows how religion has caused so many problems. I don't understand why we all can't be happy believing what we believe without wanting others to conform. And actually this while conformity thing could go way outside religion.

[Banned]

And actually this while conformity thing could go way outside religion.

*whole

[KeithReynolds]

An agnostic is bound to become a christian sooner or later.

What you see in the bible is the same thing that has been said through out the centuries. The stories are a little different by each person who wrote them because there are centuries between them. For example; Matthew was written 900 years after Christ died. At that time the bible was being developed, they didn't have writing tools and everything was from memory, so it is normal to have some differences.

I was a Christian, and still lump myself as one. Just one who desires to not be LIED to anymore.

Im not talking about differences in stories due to time. Im talking about ENTIRE stores from the old testament being written down 2,000 years BEFORE jews wrote it. The Jews got the ideas for their stories from the older Sumerian stories they read. The difference is, God didnt create man in the older Sumerian text. Things didnt go down the way Genesis says so in the texts it copied from. It was changed to fit the newer religion. Just do the research and youll see.


So if the world is 6000 yrs old, and modern humans were created by God...where did the Neanderthals come from??? What about their ancestors?? There is much evidence of people dating WAY before 6,000 years ago. How is that possible?? Did the devil really litter the earth with evidence of past man from thousands of years ago?? No way.

A friend of once mine said, "You just cant reason with people who go so far to eliminate reason"

[f.sciarrillo]

An agnostic is bound to become a christian sooner or later.

What you see in the bible is the same thing that has been said through out the centuries. The stories are a little different by each person who wrote them because there are centuries between them. For example; Matthew was written 900 years after Christ died. At that time the bible was being developed, they didn't have writing tools and everything was from memory, so it is normal to have some differences.

I was a Christian, and still lump myself as one. Just one who desires to not be LIED to anymore.

Im not talking about differences in stories due to time. Im talking about ENTIRE stores from the old testament being written down 2,000 years BEFORE jews wrote it. The Jews got the ideas for their stories from the older Sumerian stories they read. The difference is, God didnt create man in the older Sumerian text. Things didnt go down the way Genesis says so in the texts it copied from. It was changed to fit the newer religion. Just do the research and youll see.


So if the world is 6000 yrs old, and modern humans were created by God...where did the Neanderthals come from??? What about their ancestors?? There is much evidence of people dating WAY before 6,000 years ago. How is that possible?? Did the devil really litter the earth with evidence of past man from thousands of years ago?? No way.

A friend of once mine said, "You just cant reason with people who go so far to eliminate reason"

Which is why I said that I don't want to debate . You have your beliefs and I have mine. Nothing is going to change either. I know there were dinosaurs, I agree with that. There were Neanderthals, I agree with. Do I have the answers to when they actually were? No, I do not. I do feel they had to be with in the last 6,000 years though.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index ... 332AAl25IT

[RFBuck]

Hoo boy...do I want to get into this?

I definitely believe in a higher being, and a creator. I do not for one minute think we were once amoebas that wiggled our way out of some ooze. But I also do not take the Bible as word. There are a lot of discrepancies, and i question a large amount.
The great comedian Lewis Black once said that the Old Testament was not meant for us. It was meant for the Jews, and also pointed out that his "wrathfulness" was to keep them in line and behave!! Look it up sometime...it's quite humorous...and actually makes a little sense.

[KeithReynolds]

well, if things ON the Earth are a certain date...then the Earth HAS to be atleast that old! Right?
Stuff cant exist on something that isnt formed yet right?

Maybe they cant date the entire EARTH, but they can date everything on it. Thats proof enough for me.

With as passionate as people are with something as insignificant as politics, I would think this would be a hot topic. Not the emo kind either.

[f.sciarrillo]

As for Dinosaurs, they are mentioned in the bible. It gives them names like behemoth and Leviathan. The reason for those names is because the word dinosaur was never invented till 1841 by Sir. Richard Owen. (Yes, I looked up when the name came about because I knew it was in the 1800's; I just couldn't remember who by )

http://www.clarifyingchristianity.com/dinos.shtml

[bassist_25]

People who are agnostic believe in god, but they want to have proof of it. They only believe what they see and what they hear. It isn't a bad thing, mind you. An agnostic is bound to become a christian sooner or later. I used to be one

Not quite. An agnostic niether denies, as an atheist does, nor affirms, as a theist does, the existence of god(s). As far as agnostics eventually choosing to become atheists or theists - I know quite a bit who have gone both ways. I'm not saying that's a represention of what path agnostics eventually choose, if they do choose at all. That's just been my experience.

As far as my beliefs - I'm an existentialist theist... though perhaps not in the pure Kantian sense. Other than the evolutionary need to spread genetic material, I believe that our lives are, by default, meaningless. However, we can define and acquire meaning through living and social construction. I'm a theist because I believe in God and we can choose to come to God.

P.S. Lewis Black is awesome.

[witchhunt]

The three main answers I get to my questions..."It's God's will - There's a reason for it - It's a mystery."

[dbdrummer89]

f.sciarrillo,

I respect that you didn't want to debate the issue, and feel free to ignore this, but let me offer this:

There's a belief in the Catholic tradition, (having been enrolled in one Catholic school or another for almost 17 years), and perhaps in other Christian traditions, that the "days" told in Genesis aren't actually "days." It's fairly popular so excuse me if you've already heard and discarded it.

Rather than being 7 calendar days, the days are actually an undetermined amount of time. For example, when God created Light and Dark (more importantly the light), it's actually talking about the sun being created over millions of years. In other words, the days are more like days from the perspective of God, which no human could comprehend (so goes the theory). It would marry traditional beliefs and scientific theories beautifully.

Somewhere on the internet there's a graph that illustrates this idea much better than I probably did here, but I was just wondering if you accept the idea that each day in the Bible coincides with a period of geological and biological evolution.

[f.sciarrillo]

f.sciarrillo,

I respect that you didn't want to debate the issue, and feel free to ignore this, but let me offer this:

There's a belief in the Catholic tradition, (having been enrolled in one Catholic school or another for almost 17 years), and perhaps in other Christian traditions, that the "days" told in Genesis aren't actually "days." It's fairly popular so excuse me if you've already heard and discarded it.

Rather than being 7 calendar days, the days are actually an undetermined amount of time. For example, when God created Light and Dark (more importantly the light), it's actually talking about the sun being created over millions of years. In other words, the days are more like days from the perspective of God, which no human could comprehend (so goes the theory). It would marry traditional beliefs and scientific theories beautifully.

Somewhere on the internet there's a graph that illustrates this idea much better than I probably did here, but I was just wondering if you accept the idea that each day in the Bible coincides with a period of geological and biological evolution.

Please dude, Call me Frank

This is a good point you bring up. My understanding has always been that a day is 1000 years. I believe it says that somewhere in the bible as well? Yes it does:

2 Peter 3:8 -> "But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day."

Psalm 90:4 -> "A thousand years in your sight are like a day that has just gone by, or like a watch in the night."

I am going to ask my pastor about the way of creation. And see what he says about the time frame.

[Jasaoke]

Keith, some things to consider:

You probably practice "blind faith" a lot more than you realize. Do you ever eat out? Do you inspect the food and cooks beforehand? Have you personally inspected all the framing members of your home? Do you ever go outside, where people with cars are? Do you breatalize every other motorist, or do you simply believe that these things won't hurt or kill you? I'm curious as to why believing another person (stranger) is better than believing a perfect, loving God.

As for science:
Science functions on assumptions (i.e. Everything has a natural, explainable cause, carbon 14 decays at a fixed rate). And builds on the good faith of previous science. First year chemistry students are not expected to measure the atomic weight of every element, but they do calculations by "blindly believing" in the periodic table. Faith functions of assumptions, too, just different ones (maybe we can't explain everything, there is a loving God)

Carbon dating is fine, as long as you assume that carbon 14 decays at a fixed rate. However, we have only been able to measure levels of C14 for a short span of history, so this measurement is rather uncalibrated. Postulating about the age of the planet or ancient artifacts is like using a 6-inch ruler to eyeball the distance from New York to Tokyo. The same goes for astronomy; the amount of data that we actually receive is incredibly small. Yet many people quickly accept and believe what scientists tell us. Evolution is being taught in schools as a "scientific fact", while evolutionists have failed to answer any real questions about their theory. (irreducible complexities, sexual reproduction, origin, tremendous gaps in the 'fossil record')

Think about the number of "scientific" advances that have changed dramatically throughout recorded history: The earth is the center of the universe; the earth is flat; bloodletting is necessary to heal a wound; leeches draw out infection; 4 out of 5 doctors smoke Camel cigarettes.

Now think about this: The bible has withstood much stricter scrutiny for a longer time than "science" and has remained comparatively unchanged (even considering translations and edits). What does that tell you?

Science has recently 'discovered' that after the big bang, as the universe cooled, the subatomic soup reached 3000 deg K, called the point of "decoupling". This is when atoms formed, releasing photons, which, being light, fled away at the speed of light.
So, scientists have now determined that light existed in our universe before the 'light-producing' objects (stars) were formed. Where have I heard that before...?

"God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness." Genesis 1:4

And for Satan, I think that if you believe in God, than you must acknowlege Satan, or evil, or whatever. You can't have North without South.

I could (and would be happy to) go on and on but I think I've taken up too much space already.

[tornandfrayed]

...

[dbdrummer89]

Frank,

Admittedly I'm not a good scholar of scripture, but it seems that the translation you used would certainly give some leeway, especially since the word "like" is used. I'll be curious what your pastor has to say on the subject.
(I'm Tony by the way )

Jassaoke,

That's an interesting perspective to take and one that I haven't really considered. In response to your post though, I would like to offer two counter points.

1) 4/5 of your examples for scientific advances occurred when it was punishable by death (in some places and times) to question the Church, and by extension the Bible. There was room for some debate in a theological realm, but not for disproving core beliefs. With that said, it's not a surprise that the Bible hasn't been critiqued as much as science; it's been dangerous to do so.

2) The tone of your post indicated that change is a bad thing, but that's exactly what those in the scientific community value and condemn hardcore religious folks for. The scientific community is often wrong. They know that and they are proud for it, because being proved wrong means that there is something right about what someone else did. It's all in the name of progress really. There's a famous quote by a scientist (whose name escapes me) that walked into his classroom and the first words out of his mouth were "Half of what I tell you is a lie." In other words, the scientist knew eventually some things that were accepted as fact would be disproven, but at that present time he was as up to date as possible and therefore obligated to pursue those facts.

Good point on the blind faith bit, it's overlooked on a daily basis

Tornandfrayed: Agreed, but I don't debate these kind of things to prove you wrong and make myself feel better. I love debating these things because it (hopefully) leads to a better understanding about a subject. I'm just starting my student-teaching and the one thing I'm worried about is having students that don't care enough to look for answers. People just don't care enough to look for answers, and quite frankly it's great to see a debate on the subject on here because it means everyone that replies actually cares about something outside of their own little world. Just a thought

And who says rockpagers can't have a civil debate

PS: whew...sorry for the winded post

[KeithReynolds]

Frank, You cant ask biased people things though. They will pass off what THEY believe as TRUTH. Any truth needs to be investigated, evaluated, and PROVED to be considered truth. Alot of people take opinions and theories and market them as TRUTH. That doesnt make it truth, but its accepted as truth by people who want it to be.

ALSO, alot of the text in the bible has been mistranslated, or just filled in with what people thought in the 1600's when the KJV bible was invented.

Have you ever looked at original hebrew and greek stuff correctly translated into our language? There's some discrepancies to say the least.

Do you know how many "Saviors" had the same attributes of Jesus?? THOUSANDS of years BEFORE him?
here you go!! http://www.bandoli.no/nooriginaljesus.htm

My Mom said that was the devil laying lies down thousands of years before Jesus to make him see not credible. How would Satan know Jesus and how his life was? I thought he couldnt see the future? Only God can, right? Doesnt make sense. Oh yeah, thats right...have FAITH.

As you will read, all those guys come complete with virgin births, teaching people, healing the sick, and alot were crucified. Coincidence? Nope, thats just where the idea of a savior was taken from when the biblical stories were written. The Jews wanted their OWN God and savior, so they scripted themselves one from past myths.

What I dont get, is not even the Jews believe alot of the stuff that deals with them. They have their OWN religion. Why is that? Why dont his own people believe?

Moses led the Exodus from Egypt with thousands of slaves right? Why isnt that anywhere in Egyptian history?? Wouldnt it be?? Its not. Was it the devil who erased it from history? yep, my Mom says that too.

If they would just listen to themselves, maybe they could see how insane everything is they say. They cant though, because any doubting is considered evil remember? Any intelligent thought is forbidden. Remember the Tree of Knowledge of Good & Evil? Point proven! It was a "SIN" to want to know more.

Genesis 1:26 contains the words: "And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness..."

ok..who is "US".....who's "OUR" ??? If God ALONE created man...why does HE even refer to more than one doing the creating? Weird huh?
Dont ask religious people that, because they either just say "oh thats not what he meant" OR the add their own interpretation to what it says.

God flat out says "us" and "our". That means HE wasnt the ONLY one!
If someone believes the bible word for word, why not believe that??
Right in the beginning of the book, and intelligent person would have to question what they are reading. Does it happen? not really. Remember? Questioning is BAD.

My mom says "Pray to God and he will help you see the truth". She is referring to Truth as the way SHE believes it, and her bible.
When I pray to God asking for truth, im told "Keep Digging!" and "Use your mind, boy!". Not as in a literal voice, but as the way I feel. Let me guess, thats the devil telling me that right??

[KeithReynolds]

Yeah, i guess everyone practices a bit of blind faith in everyday life when we eat things, smoke, drink,do drugs, have sex, drive, sleep, and everything else we do. Youre right...but at some point it becomes NOT blind faith. We find out what things do and how they work. Its not really the same at all, sorry dude.

Have I built an entire belief system on blind faith ? No way! Science has explained things that thousands of years were thought to be divine. When a hurricane, earthquake or tornado happened, it was though that God was pissed. We now know about weather systems and how it works! We now know why earthquakes happen. We can apply the same thing to every claim.
We just know more now as opposed to guessing and making shit up all day which is what we HAD to do before.

I will NEVER believe that God is all-loving. Theres too much pain, torture and death to go around. If he loves YOU so much, why doesnt he love kids that are kidnapped, molested and murdered? What about raped women? Or people who are just killed? They pray to be saved from their death & torture. God does not care.
If God cared even a little bit, he would turn certain things off in the human race. Why would he want to constantly itness such horrible deeds done every day? Doesnt he care??? If He REALLY cared, dont you think he would become fedup with the parasite we call humanity and make some slight changes?
"Ok, guys, kidrape isnt cool, im gonna turn that off for you sickos". Nope. we get nothing. We get that wickedness is of the devil. For the devil not having much power, he does some pretty huge things!!!!

God loves you so much though cause your in his little club. How is that LOVE??? Its selective love, that again has NO PROOF. If something goes good for you, you attribute it to God. When its bad, its Satan's fault. Pretty neat how that system works!

Satan doesnt exist. He is in place so priests can molest boys, so people can kill eachother, rape eachother and ruin eachother lives....and not have to accept blame. Satan is blamed for it all. He is the perfect fall guy. Whoever made him up KNEW that it would be perfect to be able to blame evil deeds on someone else as to deny responsibility.

Why is it so hard to see? Would you believe ANYTHING else with no evidence? Hell no! So why do it now? Oh yeah, thats right... "Faith".

[joltinjeff]

I have actually been on both sides of this if you will.
I wont go into a lot of detail about it, but it comes down to this for me.

As a kid growing up, I went to church Sunday morning & night plus Wednesday nights. Was raised in a Baptist home.

Still choose to believe that there is a GOD. But I dont choose to go to church.

For me, church has become more about associations and private friendships than doing what God initially wanted the church to do. I dont fall into anyone's 'plan' or 'their clique'.

I also spent a good portion of my adult life divulging into sex, drugs, alcohol, porn, gossip, lying, cheating, stealing, and a lot of other things...
This is where the "church" and I parted ways and for this simple reason.
I wanted to get help with these things and I got nothing....no help, no counseling...you name it.

So, yes I believe in God. God is what we chose to make him. For a lot of us, music is our house of worship and gigging is our songs of praise. Lets face it folks, without someone providing you with your talents...you would just be another face in the crowd lifting a beer and screaming for someone to play your favorite song..

[dbdrummer89]

Kieth,

I can relate to family ignorance. Any offense against Catholicism is a kick in the teeth, but they lack the ability to see why other religions get offended about things that contradict their religion.

However, I have yet to meet someone that actually blames the devil for things they've done. Some definitely cite the devil as a reason, but never an excuse. Things like child molestation is a horrible act, and there is never an excuse for it, but there are certainly dozens of reasons for it. There's a HUGE difference between providing a reason and giving an excuse.