These Federal Bailouts just piss me off !

[Hawk]

Now the Treasury is talking about bailing out foreign banks!

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0908/13690.html

This is a very dangerous time for our liberty and freedom. This is much more than a Democrat or Republican argument.

You're right Joe. I don't think the "sometimes" news listener has a clue. This is downright scary.

[cruseaudio]

yawn................. one year anniversary visit in the bag...... same conclusion.. "musicians" should play music, and some should try harder.......to play music.....
IFN you aint anywhere by now..look around..... this is where yer stayin.

see ya next fall

vote for change and shut up about it

[bassist_25]

I'm still playing bass though.

[lonewolf]

The Enron loophole was put in by Republicans. That's the bill that created much of the deregulation and energy speculation - driving up gas prices.

And who signed The Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000?

[DirtySanchez]

yawn................. one year anniversary visit in the bag...... same conclusion.. "musicians" should play music, and some should try harder.......to play music.....
IFN you aint anywhere by now..look around..... this is where yer stayin.

see ya next fall

vote for change and shut up about it

Oh wow. Where ya been? On tour? Can I have your autograph?


You said, "vote for change" right after you basically said that nothing will change. Not looking forward to your post next year, but I hope it makes more sense. Maybe take an online class or something. Education. GETINTOIT!

[BDR]

Yep, bailouts are pissin' me off, too. As Colbert said the other night, let's give these huge companies that couldn't manage loans an $85 billion LOAN because they're so huge, their failure endangers the world economy.

You know, sometimes, when an NFL team has an 8-8 season, they fire the head coach after one season.

r:>)

[Hawk]

I just thought of this. What if Bush (McCain supported the idea) had managed to privatise Social Security ! It would have gone down the tubes with Wall Street !

Wow, that was a close one.

[AnimalInstinct625]

I'm really impressed with everyone's knowledge on this crisis, and have learned a few things along the way.

[Banned]

I just thought of this. What if Bush (McCain supported the idea) had managed to privatise Social Security ! It would have gone down the tubes with Wall Street !

Wow, that was a close one.

SS is already down the tubes. There is no Social security Trust Fund. Each and every dollar is spent immediately.

The idea was to let younger people who are going to get absolutely nothing, would be able to take a small percent, 2% is the amount I read about the most, and let them grow that for their own PERSONAL account. That would at least guarantee the next generations something. As it is now, no one under 40 years old will ever get a penny from SS.

[Lisa]

And when my mother of 72 years of age died from cancer in August, Dad had to fight to get the $255 death benefit and is still waiting for her last payment due to her.......Soc. Sec. was screwed a long time ago

My retirement is in the market....I'm not worried. Yes, it takes a dive once in awhile...but it comes back and usually stronger than ever. Of course, I'm also smart enough not to have it all there but have some in a safety low interest paying account too.

President Bush is to blame for everything. Last night, I stubbed my toe as I walked up my steps. I know it was his fault because he didn't push through a bill that had included in it a special clause stating that all homes needed to have rubber steps. Oh, and that supper I burnt last week, well, its because President Bush didn't allow me to hire the immigrant cook who was here illegally. I would have paid said cook $1 for the hour but had to do it myself.

I'm just tired of hearing the blame for everything fall on one person no matter what their political party may be. In our country, we have a government that is ran by many many people. Now if you really want to start seeing a change, think local and let it grow. If your local economy can improve, then you will do a little better. Then if a thousand local communities do well, our state will do better. By the time you know, most of the states will be doing better and it will affect the national level.

I dare those who find fault in the different parties to name 3 ways that they have helped their local communities become stronger.

[Hawk]

And when my mother of 72 years of age died from cancer in August, Dad had to fight to get the $255 death benefit and is still waiting for her last payment due to her.......Soc. Sec. was screwed a long time ago

My retirement is in the market....I'm not worried. Yes, it takes a dive once in awhile...but it comes back and usually stronger than ever. Of course, I'm also smart enough not to have it all there but have some in a safety low interest paying account too.

President Bush is to blame for everything. Last night, I stubbed my toe as I walked up my steps. I know it was his fault because he didn't push through a bill that had included in it a special clause stating that all homes needed to have rubber steps. Oh, and that supper I burnt last week, well, its because President Bush didn't allow me to hire the immigrant cook who was here illegally. I would have paid said cook $1 for the hour but had to do it myself.

I'm just tired of hearing the blame for everything fall on one person no matter what their political party may be. In our country, we have a government that is ran by many many people. Now if you really want to start seeing a change, think local and let it grow. If your local economy can improve, then you will do a little better. Then if a thousand local communities do well, our state will do better. By the time you know, most of the states will be doing better and it will affect the national level.

I dare those who find fault in the different parties to name 3 ways that they have helped their local communities become stronger.

Sorry Lisa, but we were as cloe to another Great Depression as we could get. The fault lies in the fact that regulations were removed !

Wall Street would COLAPSE if not for $700 Million tax dollars to hold it from falling. The Dow was dropping fast until YOUR tax money patched their asses with a 3/4 Trillion Dollar band-aid !

It is a fact the BUSH - YES BUSH - wanted to privatise Social Security. you do remember that don't you ? If he had had his way, then yes, it would have been his fault if it all went down the tube with the rest of Wall Street.

So how can you leave Bush out of it ? I don't get your analogy. If someone IS responsible - you'd like to give him a pass ?

BTW I didn't blame Bush for the economic free fall we are in. I blamed Phil Gram. And his Republican counter parts.

[lonewolf]

Sorry Lisa, but we were as cloe to another Great Depression as we could get. The fault lies in the fact that regulations were removed !

Actually, it wasn't that regulations were removed--the existing mortgage regs weren't enforced on the new breed of mortgage brokers. Mortgage regulations were still in place, the new brokers just ignored them. Once the bad mortgages were made, they were sold right along with the good ones. They can all be busted for securities fraud and hopefully they will.

Also, things are a bit sketchy as to how they will execute this plan, but we are not just handing over $700B. This will be used to buy up mortgage-backed securities that have been downgraded and nobody wants to buy at this time. They are still asset-backed and in the long run, may even make a profit for the government. That will all depend on interest rates, the economy and the real estate market.

[Hawk]

Do you realize that we would need to raise EVERY ONE'S income tax by 55% to pay for this bailout !

Or as they are so fond of doing, print more money and pass along the bill to the next generation.

I'm not for either choice of course. It is just further evidence we need to put people in office who won't let this happen again. McCain IS McBush all over again. Obama is the reformer - and has been challenging this deregulation before it became popular to do so.

Funny how, after 26 years in Washington, McCain thinks NOW is a time for a change. Where has he been the last 8 years ?

[Hawk]

Sorry Lisa, but we were as cloe to another Great Depression as we could get. The fault lies in the fact that regulations were removed !

Actually, it wasn't that regulations were removed--the existing mortgage regs weren't enforced on the new breed of mortgage brokers. Mortgage regulations were still in place, the new brokers just ignored them. Once the bad mortgages were made, they were sold right along with the good ones. They can all be busted for securities fraud and hopefully they will.

Also, things are a bit sketchy as to how they will execute this plan, but we are not just handing over $700B. This will be used to buy up mortgage-backed securities that have been downgraded and nobody wants to buy at this time. They are still asset-backed and in the long run, may even make a profit for the government. That will all depend on interest rates, the economy and the real estate market.

I beg to differ.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9246.html
.......in black and white.

I know you won't like the source, but they just won't have it on Fox or any other Rupert Murdoch news outlet.

EDIT: I've never been on this site before. I got my info from more than one source, including some traditionally Republican sources. I just googled : Mortgage deregulation - and many links came up. I read this one and it seems to sum it the way I've heard it described it before.

[Hawk]

Also, things are a bit sketchy as to how they will execute this plan, but we are not just handing over $700B. This will be used to buy up mortgage-backed securities that have been downgraded and nobody wants to buy at this time. They are still asset-backed and in the long run, may even make a profit for the government. That will all depend on interest rates, the economy and the real estate market.

Hmmm. USSR like socialism.

[slackin@dabass]

Also, things are a bit sketchy as to how they will execute this plan, but we are not just handing over $700B. This will be used to buy up mortgage-backed securities that have been downgraded and nobody wants to buy at this time. They are still asset-backed and in the long run, may even make a profit for the government. That will all depend on interest rates, the economy and the real estate market.

Hmmm. USSR like socialism.

that's exactly what it is. no... just talking out of my ass again, sorry!

[lonewolf]

I beg to differ.

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0308/9246.html
.......in black and white.

Yes, it is in black and white (my head is spinning at the carefully crafted wording in that article.) Regulations on mortgages themselves were never changed by that legislation:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gramm-Leach-Bliley_Act

What you call deregulation was simply legislation allowing more types of financial business entities into the mortgage and other markets by allowing certain types of mergers. That is not what caused this problem. Bad mortgages are what caused this problem. These sub-prime mortgages were underwritten by all types of companies, including the ones who were in the mortgage market before the so-called "deregulation". I suppose that if you were grasping for straws, you could say the legislation caused more competition to write bad loans.

Those loans were still subject to the same mortgage regulations as before the act and the underwriters should be prosecuted for securities fraud.

[lonewolf]

Also, things are a bit sketchy as to how they will execute this plan, but we are not just handing over $700B. This will be used to buy up mortgage-backed securities that have been downgraded and nobody wants to buy at this time. They are still asset-backed and in the long run, may even make a profit for the government. That will all depend on interest rates, the economy and the real estate market.

Hmmm. USSR like socialism.

I didn't say it was good, I was just trying to explain what might happen.

[Hawk]

Also, things are a bit sketchy as to how they will execute this plan, but we are not just handing over $700B. This will be used to buy up mortgage-backed securities that have been downgraded and nobody wants to buy at this time. They are still asset-backed and in the long run, may even make a profit for the government. That will all depend on interest rates, the economy and the real estate market.

Hmmm. USSR like socialism.

I didn't say it was good, I was just trying to explain what might happen.

I know you weren't saying it was good. It's a necessity.

[songsmith]

President Bush is to blame for everything. Last night, I stubbed my toe as I walked up my steps. I know it was his fault because he didn't push through a bill that had included in it a special clause stating that all homes needed to have rubber steps. Oh, and that supper I burnt last week, well, its because President Bush didn't allow me to hire the immigrant cook who was here illegally. I would have paid said cook $1 for the hour but had to do it myself.

.

Giving GWB and his band of thieves a pass on everything? Does that sound like the thing to do? Yeah, let's just forget about all the negativity and get on with the process of extending it.

** Iraq War, 4000 dead, 50,000 injured. Picked because there were more high-value targets in Iraq than in Afghanistan. Iraq still has no real army or police force, but Iraqi gov't leaders share near $80 billion in oil revenue amongst themselves. Mission Accomplished.
** Afghan War, 6 years, no Bin Laden. Taliban & Al Qaeda regrouping to pre-9/11 capabilities.
** Petroleum prices, top two offices in the free world occupied by Texas oilmen. Price of gas when Bush43 takes office: $1.48 per gallon. Peak: well over $4 per gallon. Price when Bush leaves: mid $3.50 range. $20 billion in tax breaks to the largest oil companies. No-bid contracts to Halliburton for billions for rebuilding Iraqi petro infrastructure. US economy stalls, US automakers stall, food prices go up. Hundreds of thousands lose jobs. Petro's tag the highest profits for any industry in world history.
** Much of America's manufacturing capacity goes offshore. Hundreds of thousands lose jobs. No attempt is made to stop the hemorrhaging, as the low-end retail sector needs cheap labor.
** After nearly a week's warning, Katrina hits New Orleans. Several days after the disaster, private aid arrives in trucks. The National Guard would arrive several days after that. The incident leads to huge no-bid contracts for poisonous FEMA trailers, enormous increases in petroleum prices (gouging), and exposes FEMA as incredibly unable to deal with a large disaster, despite the huge increases in funding provided by the Dept of Homeland Security.
** A few years after 9/11, the BushAdmin attempts to allow a mega-corp owned by Dubai, a Muslim country whose citizens largely supported 9/11, to control some of the US's major shipping ports. The citizenry of the US made it very clear , it didn't want that.
** Also a few short years after 9/11, despite overtures towards finally controlling our southern border, the BushAdmin supports allowing amnesty for illegal aliens in our country, so long as they take the low-paying jobs we have plenty of. The American people have a bit to say about that as well.
** Then, of course, we have the aforementioned SocSec butt-whipping. The Bush Administration, long beholden to the banking, petroleum, pharmaceutical and utilities industries, attempted to funnel money that the American people paid, into the banking industry, so they could use it for capital, and make themselves a nice percentage on it. Again, the American people said no thanks, I paid into that, it's not your money to eff with.

Shall I continue? Enron/Adelphia/Worldcomm/etc.? Valerie Plame vs. Karl Rove? Executive Privilege? Cheney's shotgun? Suspension of Habeus Corpus and phone-taps? The Nixon/Watergate connection? Swiftboat Vets For Truth? Missing e-mails, and e-mails sent via the GOP servers? The month-long vacation he took in July '01, after serving only since late January? Holding hands with the Saudi prince (most of the 9/11 perpetrators were Saudi)?

Tell you what, let's just ignore it all, hit delete, and make all these fun stats go away. Four More Years! Four More Years! We can do it, it would just take a Constitutional amendment, and the Neo's were once in favor of that, both for gay marriage, and so the Governator could run for President, back before they found out he had to capitulate to majority rule in California.

No, the only satisfaction I take from all this is that the Bushpilots have to break up the band and go back to anal-raping the private sector. Oh, sure, somebody from the current fiasco will be roadying for the new administration, but it won't be the same. Ah, the good ol' days...--->JMS

[cucuplex96]

President Bush is to blame for everything. Last night, I stubbed my toe as I walked up my steps. I know it was his fault because he didn't push through a bill that had included in it a special clause stating that all homes needed to have rubber steps. Oh, and that supper I burnt last week, well, its because President Bush didn't allow me to hire the immigrant cook who was here illegally. I would have paid said cook $1 for the hour but had to do it myself.

.

Giving GWB and his band of thieves a pass on everything? Does that sound like the thing to do? Yeah, let's just forget about all the negativity and get on with the process of extending it.

** Iraq War, 4000 dead, 50,000 injured. Picked because there were more high-value targets in Iraq than in Afghanistan. Iraq still has no real army or police force, but Iraqi gov't leaders share near $80 billion in oil revenue amongst themselves. Mission Accomplished.
** Afghan War, 6 years, no Bin Laden. Taliban & Al Qaeda regrouping to pre-9/11 capabilities.
** Petroleum prices, top two offices in the free world occupied by Texas oilmen. Price of gas when Bush43 takes office: $1.48 per gallon. Peak: well over $4 per gallon. Price when Bush leaves: mid $3.50 range. $20 billion in tax breaks to the largest oil companies. No-bid contracts to Halliburton for billions for rebuilding Iraqi petro infrastructure. US economy stalls, US automakers stall, food prices go up. Hundreds of thousands lose jobs. Petro's tag the highest profits for any industry in world history.
** Much of America's manufacturing capacity goes offshore. Hundreds of thousands lose jobs. No attempt is made to stop the hemorrhaging, as the low-end retail sector needs cheap labor.
** After nearly a week's warning, Katrina hits New Orleans. Several days after the disaster, private aid arrives in trucks. The National Guard would arrive several days after that. The incident leads to huge no-bid contracts for poisonous FEMA trailers, enormous increases in petroleum prices (gouging), and exposes FEMA as incredibly unable to deal with a large disaster, despite the huge increases in funding provided by the Dept of Homeland Security.
** A few years after 9/11, the BushAdmin attempts to allow a mega-corp owned by Dubai, a Muslim country whose citizens largely supported 9/11, to control some of the US's major shipping ports. The citizenry of the US made it very clear , it didn't want that.
** Also a few short years after 9/11, despite overtures towards finally controlling our southern border, the BushAdmin supports allowing amnesty for illegal aliens in our country, so long as they take the low-paying jobs we have plenty of. The American people have a bit to say about that as well.
** Then, of course, we have the aforementioned SocSec butt-whipping. The Bush Administration, long beholden to the banking, petroleum, pharmaceutical and utilities industries, attempted to funnel money that the American people paid, into the banking industry, so they could use it for capital, and make themselves a nice percentage on it. Again, the American people said no thanks, I paid into that, it's not your money to eff with.

Shall I continue? Enron/Adelphia/Worldcomm/etc.? Valerie Plame vs. Karl Rove? Executive Privilege? Cheney's shotgun? Suspension of Habeus Corpus and phone-taps? The Nixon/Watergate connection? Swiftboat Vets For Truth? Missing e-mails, and e-mails sent via the GOP servers? The month-long vacation he took in July '01, after serving only since late January? Holding hands with the Saudi prince (most of the 9/11 perpetrators were Saudi)?

Tell you what, let's just ignore it all, hit delete, and make all these fun stats go away. Four More Years! Four More Years! We can do it, it would just take a Constitutional amendment, and the Neo's were once in favor of that, both for gay marriage, and so the Governator could run for President, back before they found out he had to capitulate to majority rule in California.

No, the only satisfaction I take from all this is that the Bushpilots have to break up the band and go back to anal-raping the private sector. Oh, sure, somebody from the current fiasco will be roadying for the new administration, but it won't be the same. Ah, the good ol' days...--->JMS

Amen Brother !!! This had been going on for well over 40 years.. we haven't seen the worst of times yet

[Gallowglass]

A few words from Dr. Ron Paul concerning the current mess. Finally, someone who makes sense:

"Dear Friends:
The financial meltdown the economists of the Austrian School predicted has arrived.

We are in this crisis because of an excess of artificially created credit at the hands of the Federal Reserve System. The solution being proposed? More artificial credit by the Federal Reserve. No liquidation of bad debt and malinvestment is to be allowed. By doing more of the same, we will only continue and intensify the distortions in our economy - all the capital misallocation, all the malinvestment - and prevent the market's attempt to re-establish rational pricing of houses and other assets.

Last night the president addressed the nation about the financial crisis. There is no point in going through his remarks line by line, since I'd only be repeating what I've been saying over and over - not just for the past several days, but for years and even decades.

Still, at least a few observations are necessary.

The president assures us that his administration 'is working with Congress to address the root cause behind much of the instability in our markets.' Care to take a guess at whether the Federal Reserve and its money creation spree were even mentioned?

We are told that 'low interest rates' led to excessive borrowing, but we are not told how these low interest rates came about. They were a deliberate policy of the Federal Reserve. As always, artificially low interest rates distort the market. Entrepreneurs engage in malinvestments - investments that do not make sense in light of current resource availability, that occur in more temporally remote stages of the capital structure than the pattern of consumer demand can support, and that would not have been made at all if the interest rate had been permitted to tell the truth instead of being toyed with by the Fed.

Not a word about any of that, of course, because Americans might then discover how the great wise men in Washington caused this great debacle. Better to keep scapegoating the mortgage industry or 'wildcat capitalism' (as if we actually have a pure free market!).

Speaking about Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, the president said: 'Because these companies were chartered by Congress, many believed they were guaranteed by the federal government. This allowed them to borrow enormous sums of money, fuel the market for questionable investments, and put our financial system at risk.'

Doesn't that prove the foolishness of chartering Fannie and Freddie in the first place? Doesn't that suggest that maybe, just maybe, government may have contributed to this mess? And of course, by bailing out Fannie and Freddie, hasn't the federal government shown that the 'many' who 'believed they were guaranteed by the federal government' were in fact correct?

Then come the scare tactics. If we don't give dictatorial powers to the Treasury Secretary 'the stock market would drop even more, which would reduce the value of your retirement account. The value of your home could plummet.' Left unsaid, naturally, is that with the bailout and all the money and credit that must be produced out of thin air to fund it, the value of your retirement account will drop anyway, because the value of the dollar will suffer a precipitous decline. As for home prices, they are obviously much too high, and supply and demand cannot equilibrate if government insists on propping them up.

It's the same destructive strategy that government tried during the Great Depression: prop up prices at all costs. The Depression went on for over a decade. On the other hand, when liquidation was allowed to occur in the equally devastating downturn of 1921, the economy recovered within less than a year.

The president also tells us that Senators McCain and Obama will join him at the White House today in order to figure out how to get the bipartisan bailout passed. The two senators would do their country much more good if they stayed on the campaign trail debating who the bigger celebrity is, or whatever it is that occupies their attention these days.

F.A. Hayek won the Nobel Prize for showing how central banks' manipulation of interest rates creates the boom-bust cycle with which we are sadly familiar. In 1932, in the depths of the Great Depression, he described the foolish policies being pursued in his day - and which are being proposed, just as destructively, in our own:

Instead of furthering the inevitable liquidation of the maladjustments brought about by the boom during the last three years, all conceivable means have been used to prevent that readjustment from taking place; and one of these means, which has been repeatedly tried though without success, from the earliest to the most recent stages of depression, has been this deliberate policy of credit expansion.

To combat the depression by a forced credit expansion is to attempt to cure the evil by the very means which brought it about; because we are suffering from a misdirection of production, we want to create further misdirection - a procedure that can only lead to a much more severe crisis as soon as the credit expansion comes to an end... It is probably to this experiment, together with the attempts to prevent liquidation once the crisis had come, that we owe the exceptional severity and duration of the depression.

The only thing we learn from history, I am afraid, is that we do not learn from history.

The very people who have spent the past several years assuring us that the economy is fundamentally sound, and who themselves foolishly cheered the extension of all these novel kinds of mortgages, are the ones who now claim to be the experts who will restore prosperity! Just how spectacularly wrong, how utterly without a clue, does someone have to be before his expert status is called into question?
Oh, and did you notice that the bailout is now being called a 'rescue plan'? I guess 'bailout' wasn't sitting too well with the American people.
The very people who with somber faces tell us of their deep concern for the spread of democracy around the world are the ones most insistent on forcing a bill through Congress that the American people overwhelmingly oppose. The very fact that some of you seem to think you're supposed to have a voice in all this actually seems to annoy them.
I continue to urge you to contact your representatives and give them a piece of your mind. I myself am doing everything I can to promote the correct point of view on the crisis. Be sure also to educate yourselves on these subjects - the Campaign for Liberty blog is an excellent place to start. Read the posts, ask questions in the comment section, and learn.
H.G. Wells once said that civilization was in a race between education and catastrophe. Let us learn the truth and spread it as far and wide as our circumstances allow. For the truth is the greatest weapon we have.
In liberty,

Ron Paul"

[bassist_25]

As always, a good breath of fresh air from Mr. Paul on an issue.

However, I think that something that everyone is failing to think about is what we do after this whole bail-out fiasco. How is this country going to create wealth and prosperity for the lower and middle-class? Our manufacturing base has been depleted and there has been a steady trend of off-shoring since the '90s. We're basically owned by China. Do people honestly think that a whole nation is going to be sustained as a service economy?

I think that greed has finally destroyed this country, and as somone who is 26, I think that the American Dream is something that has been sold out from underneath me.

[songsmith]

A few words from Dr. Ron Paul concerning the current mess. Finally, someone who makes sense:

"Dear Friends:
The financial meltdown the economists of the Austrian School predicted has arrived.

We are in this crisis because of an excess of artificially created credit at the hands of the Federal Reserve System. The solution being proposed? More artificial credit by the Federal Reserve. No liquidation of bad debt and malinvestment is to be allowed....
Ron Paul"

I was going to post that same e-mail. Kudos to Ron Paul, alas, we never knew ye.------>JMS

[Hawk]

I've been saying Ron Paul has "some" good ideas. But they will never be heard by the average American unless some Libertarian learns to introduce them incrementally.

Here's why the Republicans are not on board for the bailout. [Personally, I'm beginning to waver, wondering if it really needs to be done]

McCain swoops in and says NOTHING. Most market annalists say we HAVE to do it. Only a few say we should not.

The Republicans were ready to sign on. The Democrats proposed that if we do the bailout we should be allowed oversight and some ownership in order to eventually recover OUR money.

Then about the time McCain gets there (and says nothing) the Republicans come up with a 5 page idea of their own. They already know the Dems won't agree to it. It's obvious McCain was told to keep his mouth shut.

So why all the intrigue ? Because if the Dems get anything through, the Republicans will be out screaming, "They solve every problem with YOUR tax money. We are the fiscal responsible consertavies."

In other words, if we need a bailout, and it's mostly Democrats signing on, they can SPIN the whole thing in their favor ! I guarantee you, you will see this happen.