The Republicans want government out of your life - that's their mantra. They tell everyone that deregulation will save us (the taxpayer) money.
They along with the likes of McCain adviser Phil Gram (spelling?) added to proposed bills - deregulation to the banking industry - setting up this disaster. The biggest bailout in the history of the world.
How it works.
Mortgage companies are encouraged to PUSH as many loans as possible as it is supposed to be good for the economy. They give loans without caring whether or not the borrower can pay. Does that sound stupid ? Nope, not to them. Because of deregulation, they can just sell that mortgage to someone else. AND THE FEDERAL GOVERMENT BACKS IT.
Now the bank - since it sold off it's mortgages - can now go out and get more and more, as it's money is now freed up after selling off the old mortgages. THAT'S DEREGULATION FOR YOU
The guy who bought up all the mortgages doesn't really want them either. Because of DEREGULATION he is free to sell them.
Everyone is happy and everyone is making money.
You see where this is going ? Eventually someone is left holding the bag. That would be US, THE USA TAXPAYER.
It was all predictable. Stupid McCain said he wants to put together a commission to finf out why it happened. What an idiot.
The no tax - spend like hell Republicans are driving this country in a hole. A war we shouldn't be in and now a near collapse of the United States Economy. While McCain continues to say our the fundamentals of our economy are strong.
McCain also is trying to place the blame with others. But without REGULATIONS the greedy will screw us every time.
BTW when McCain was ask on an NBC morning show if he was for regulations he said, "No" followed by an explanation. One hour later he was asked on a CBS morning show if he was for regulations he said, "YES, the patchwork regulations system is old and needs updated."
I fear for the economic future of this country. It literally keeps me up at night. It's my generation that's being handed this cluster fuck, and we're the ones who are going to have to try and fix it - and believe me, I'm pissed off about that. Going into a HRM-related field, I'm going to have my work cut out for me. They'll have to start offering full tuition waivers on economic and MBA programs just to get people to study how to fix this mess.
However, I don't know if we can make this totally a bi-partisan issue. Both parties were asleep at the wheel on this one, and there's equal blame to go around. Granted, it's funny that the conservative belief that deregulation and the free-market is the ultimate panacea blew up in everyone's face - it's why total socialism doesn't work: people are too greedy and power-hungry to let it work properly. And that's why total capitalism doesn't work either: people are too greedy and power-hungry to let it work as well. The Libertarian Party has probably been shut out of ever hoping to win a national election for at least another 150 years now. However, Clinton put NAFTA into effect, which effectively depleted our production base. Granted, all of those corporations went over seas once they learned that Seo Ho-Jin would work for even cheaper than Pablo, but it opened the door for the mass off-shoring throughout the 90s and 2000s. Hey, as long as the share-holders are still getting paid, who gives a shit? Am I right?
The bottom-line is that the health care industry is what's ultimately propping up our economic system right now, and with a large number of people who don't even have health care coverage, that's a recipe for ultimate disaster. We took some serious credit out on our karma account over the past decade, and now the debter has come to collect.
Vote wisely this November.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
The thing that upsets me about all these bail outs is that this money they are using to help the banks, who were greedy, could be going for the defecit or something else that is helping us, instead of companies that build the pockets of politicians. And they wonder why a dollar is worth less than 40 cents now.
The government is vowing to spend almost a trillion dollars to help these greedy idiots:
The Enron loophole was put in by Republicans. That's the bill that created much of the deregulation and energy speculation - driving up gas prices. Obama wants to change, or remove, that loophole. McCain does not ! McCain's Economic adviser Phil Gram WROTE the damn bill !
Clinton did get NAFTA pushed through, but it was with the understanding that the Republicans would then let him get a health care package through, which they did not.
Tax breaks to the big companies led to their ability to build factories in China. Thank you GW.
Part of the reason (only a part) that they can lower gas prices is because - as I understand it - is there has been less "speculators" involved in the transition of oil to us as gas.
f.sciarrillo wrote:The thing that upsets me about all these bail outs is that this money they are using to help the banks, who were greedy, could be going for the defecit or something else that is helping us, instead of companies that build the pockets of politicians. And they wonder why a dollar is worth less than 40 cents now.
The government is vowing to spend almost a trillion dollars to help these greedy idiots:
We have to bail them out - as much as it angers me. Our economy would collapse if we didn't.
The Republicans have become the SOCIALISTS of the day ! The PREDICTABLE bailouts allows the USA to partially OWN these companies. YEP, those people will be working formerly private sector jobs, for the Federal Government. This is Socialism in it's purest form ! Sucks !
With the money we will have to print for these buyouts - the dollar will surly decrease in value. Don't forget - The Democrats have been wanting to close the loophole and re-establish these regulations that the Republicans have removed.
Hawk, brother...WAKE UP! When will you see that the Dems are just as bad as the "Republicans"? BOTH parties are so out of touch with the Constitutional limits of the federal govt. and so entrenched in special interests that the solution is not going to come from either major party.
What bothers me most about the bailout is that whether you want to call it a "bailout" or whatever it essentially has the same effect as subsidization or regulation-it prevents freedom of the marketplace. The govt needs to get out of this game ENTIRELY and let businesses succeed or fail on their own merit.
Gallowglass wrote:Hawk, brother...WAKE UP! When will you see that the Dems are just as bad as the "Republicans"? BOTH parties are so out of touch with the Constitutional limits of the federal govt. and so entrenched in special interests that the solution is not going to come from either major party.
What bothers me most about the bailout is that whether you want to call it a "bailout" or whatever it essentially has the same effect as subsidization or regulation-it prevents freedom of the marketplace. The govt needs to get out of this game ENTIRELY and let businesses succeed or fail on their own merit.
You are right - The Dems have some explaining to do as well. But THIS economic collapse belongs on the shoulders of the ones who pushed FOR the DEREGULATION - The Republicans ! How can you call for less regulations when YOU are PAYING for this DE-regulation fiasco !
This bailout IS Republican Socialism !
I don't think most Americans know how close we came to a major depression. Of course - McCain has no clue. Fool .
If we left it fail as you suggest. TODAY - September 20th - We would be in a bigger, deeper depression than we were in 1929. That's why the regulations were put in place - so that we wouldn't have another 1929 like depression.
Hawk wrote:...If we left it fail as you suggest. TODAY - September 20th - We would be in a bigger, deeper depression than we were in 1929. That's why the regulations were put in place - so that we wouldn't have another 1929 like depression.
Possibly, but it wouldn't come to this if the market hadn't been interfered with in the first place. Messing with it it what causes these bubbles to begin with. Inevitably, the market WILL correct itself, all we are doing with the bailouts, subsidizing, regulating etc. is delaying the inevitable and causing the eventual correction to be more extreme. If allowed to correct itself naturally, the process would be more gradual. The market has a natural ebb and flow. Imagine it like the tides. If you continually try to throw up dams/ retaining barriers that prevent it from following its natural course, the pressure begins to grow. Eventually, it will burst and be much more destructive because of the interference.
Hawk wrote:...If we left it fail as you suggest. TODAY - September 20th - We would be in a bigger, deeper depression than we were in 1929. That's why the regulations were put in place - so that we wouldn't have another 1929 like depression.
Possibly, but it wouldn't come to this if the market hadn't been interfered with in the first place. Messing with it it what causes these bubbles to begin with. Inevitably, the market WILL correct itself, all we are doing with the bailouts, subsidizing, regulating etc. is delaying the inevitable and causing the eventual correction to be more extreme. If allowed to correct itself naturally, the process would be more gradual. The market has a natural ebb and flow. Imagine it like the tides. If you continually try to throw up dams/ retaining barriers that prevent it from following its natural course, the pressure begins to grow. Eventually, it will burst and be much more destructive because of the interference.
You have to study The Great Depression. Back when there were less / no regulations. It's the greedy that create the bubbles. The regulations have worked and worked well for last 70 to 80 years. As soon as they were remove - viola - collapse.
You must understand - if the regulations WERE in place (as they once were) the banks COULD NOT sell off their mortgages. If they knew they would be stuck with bad loans, they would not have made them in the first place - and we would have NO PROBLEMS today.
It would work like free enterprise is suppose to. If a bank makes a bunch of bad loans - they couldn't sell them off (a regulation) and they would have to eat them . That is free enterprise.
Instead Phil Gram set up a socialized plan that the taxpayers would guarantee the loans, no matter how bad they were. As the loans were sold down the line TO US because of deregulation.
So understand that the regulations that were in place made things work the way YOU want them to. A bank makes bad loans - let it die.
With deregulation it became - A bank makes bad loans - pass it on, until it reaches the taxpayer.
Hawk,
We're coming from mostly the same place. I just don't think the govt. needs to have any hand in it. I have no problem with the banks selling off mortgages, btw., if some dumb S.O.B. wants to WILLINGLY take a chance on buying them. You need to study some of the works of Ludwig von Mises and the Austrian Economists. They we're warning about all this shit a long time ago.
P.S. going back to the principles of sound money would help a lot.
Tchuss for now, got to run to band practice-I'll be back to discuss later.
Gallowglass wrote:Hawk,
We're coming from mostly the same place. I just don't think the govt. needs to have any hand in it. I have no problem with the banks selling off mortgages, btw., if some dumb S.O.B. wants to WILLINGLY take a chance on buying them. You need to study some of the works of Ludwig von Mises and the Austrian Economists. They we're warning about all this shit a long time ago.
P.S. going back to the principles of sound money would help a lot.
Tchuss for now, got to run to band practice-I'll be back to discuss later.
Hey man, enjoy practice !
I think we both want the same thing, we just see it in a different way.
But understand that the guy you think is a fool for buying up the bad loans - doesn't know they are bad loans. He doesn't know what information the banks took. And he doesn't care, because he sells them to someone else. And that guy sells them to someone else. This is what the deregulation allows. And they are sold until they reach an end. The end was what happened the other day. You see - as the loans are sold and resold, the loss becomes so GREAT that only the US government (Yep, TAXPAYERS) can bail them out.
That's what happened. And we are left to either bail them out, or let our economy collapse. Bush is choosing a bailout.
Obama has also been warning us about this for a long time ! I even said it in many posts a while back during the bailout of Fanny Mae and Freddie Mack. He wants to close the loop hole that allows banks to sell off loans. That way - THEY WON'T MAKE BAD LOANS !
You own a music store. You sell guitars by giving people a loan for the amount the guitar costs. You would be very careful to whom you sold a guitar to.
Now Phil Gram sets up a new plan for you. To stimulate the economy, he tells you to sell as many guitars as you can. And you can take those loans and sell them to a bank. And the bank will be backed by the government.
Now you can sell hundreds and hundreds of guitars without worry, and you get your money from the Bank you sell your loans to. Win win right ?
And lets say that EVERY music store in the United States did this. Eventually - someone gets stuck holding the bag, a collapse is inevitable.
That's what happened with mortgages.
If the guitar store were not encouraged to sell off it's loans, there would have never been a problem ! Same with mortgages.
Gallowglass wrote:Hawk,
We're coming from mostly the same place. I just don't think the govt. needs to have any hand in it. I have no problem with the banks selling off mortgages, btw., if some dumb S.O.B. wants to WILLINGLY take a chance on buying them. You need to study some of the works of Ludwig von Mises and the Austrian Economists. They we're warning about all this shit a long time ago.
P.S. going back to the principles of sound money would help a lot.
I think the issue rests more with the idea that if major financial powers collapse, then the ripple effect goes throughout the economy and screws us all. That's fine and dandy if it's some small computer outlet or grocery store in BFE that's mismanaged and then goes under. That's how the free-market works. However, when large corporations with billions of stock - many which are related to people's 401(k)s - use a loophole to be greedy and then would go under, it's more than Bettie Jo looking in the want ads for a new cashier gig. People who know nothing of Wall Street are going to be jumping out of the windows. I think the heart of the argument is that, generally, if the intitutions couldn't sell the loans, we'd like to believe that people in executive positions with MBAs are smart enough not to give $500,000 loans to people who work at McDonald's. If they couldn't have sold the loans, then they wouldn't have given the loans in the first place. The idea was lend the money, take advantage of the low interest rate, and let someone else worry about it. We had two choices: 1. Government bail-out or 2. Watch what's left of our economy that's currently in the toilet go to the septic tank.
Of course, the downside of this is that it could have a pendulum effect. Next thing we know, a business won't be able to take a fart without the government throwing up a bunch of red tape. For me, it's not an issue of freedom versus non-freedom or capitalism versus socialism; it's an issue of protecting the macro economy so greed doesn't destroy Bob who drives a truck for a living or Helen who runs her own daycare center.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
Who The F##k Cares It's Al Shit Anyways So Just Sit Back And Enjoy The Ride And Watch It All Fall apart, Cause It Will Never Be Fixed Or Be right So just Go And F##k The System If You Can!
Alright, I don't want to get too into this, but jesus. I hate politics. They are all a bunch of soulless liars who just want to get a hire paying job as commander in chief,..as President. Do we really believe anything will change? Are we going to fall for this again? Of course we are. We have hope, but we all know deep down that nothing is going to change, atleast for the better, and that these people each just want to get into the White House for their own personal greed.
For those of you who will vote McCain, I must say that you are blind and are the reason why the U.S. is the way it is today. I bet you people voted for Bush. McCain is a carbon copy of Bush, and Bush supports McCain 100% because he is just like him. Neither of them think the economy is actually bad because they are both rich as hell and have 7 or more houses. They are not like you are me, they are the 1% of people who own many expensive homes and earn six digits a year. They don't really give a damn about the small town people who are busting their ass for the few possessions they have and you're naive if you really think they care. Besides, McCain is 70 years old. He is too god damn old. He fell asleep during the State of the Union address because he's an old, pathetic man. Who cares if he served our country? Many people have served this country and that doesn't mean that makes them a better candidate for presidency over someone who didn't serve the country. All that means is the government made him a slave, handed him a weapon and sent his ass packing. He was a prisoner of war, big deal. I mean I feel for him, but there are many other people who have been there, so does that make them the next president? And what if he dies while in office? This governor Sarah Palin is going to become president, and do you really, REALLY think she's qualified? She is the governor of a town smaller than Altoona, come on. And she has only been governor for 2 years. She is a peon in the political world, so why would McCain choose her of all people for Vice President? I'll tell you why - it's just a way for him to get into office. He was doing terrible in the presidential race until he appointed her running mate. The reason he's doing better is not because of his economical views, his plans to end the war (he actually plans to continue it), his ideas or opinions..none of that. It's because Sarah Palin has a few things going for her - she's a woman, she is a small town woman, and she has a child with Downs Syndrome. Stupid women want a woman in office because they don't know anything about politics and just want to see a woman in power. This is a stupid reason to elect a woman, but what do you expect from a sex that is obsessed with binding plastic to their nails, being skinny, and dressing little dogs up like babies. Real women know that we need change in our country and that doesn't necessarily have to come from a woman to be a good thing. She is from a small town, so that is supposed to make us relate to her. Okay, so I relate to her..so why am I not running for office? Oh yeah, because I'm not qualified and neither is she. And I cant' imagine what it must be like to have a Downs child, and I feel for her and everyone else who has to deal with that, but that child is not a part of the race and the only reason it's being brought up is because McCain and Palin want the woman voters and the parents-of-specialneeds voters. Those are the only reasons Palin's name is in the news. She has nothing to offer the united states except her vagina, her 'small town values', and her Downs child. If McCain and Palin are voted into office, which I'm sure they will be because our country is full of morons, then it will just be another term of Bush and everyone will look at each other dumbfoundedly and start their crying game.
For those of you who will vote Obama, good for you. I'm not even being biased here. I mean, I do want him to win and it's not because he's black and I think that's 'hip'. Obama is a great speaker and seems to be a great person. Sometimes, you have to try to see past all the bullshit that is spilling out of their mouths, and yes I even think Barack has spilled some, and try to look at the person as they are in 'real life.' He seems to be a real person who isn't tainted by money and greed. He doesn't play the race card, he doesn't seem to play petty games and he also seems to really know what he's talking about. Above all that, he has real plans that might work, unlike McCain, who is just saying whatever his writers will make up to get him into office. I would really enjoy meeting him in person to talk about anything, even if it isn't politics. That's how I see Barack. I think he has intelligent, worthwhile things to say and he is most likely a very laid back, charismatic person. Alot of people say he isn't qualified enough. So was Bush? That didn't work out so well, did it? And if he isn't qualified, what makes Sarah Palin qualified? Maybe sometimes we need something different. We need new ideas and a younger outlook. OH, and to you morons who say that Obama is a terrorist or is whatever because of his name, you should be smacked upside the head with a slab of roast beef. Obama was born before Osama came to power. He was not named after a terrorist and he doesn't pray towards Mecca five times a day. I can't even put all of my insults down because they are coming on so fast -- basically, just shut up with that. Obama is the man, and I hope he gets into office.
That is all.
EW, I'm watching the news now and Palin is on there. Bitch, stop talking about your husband and your kids and your car. Start talking about the downfall of our economy, gas prices, the hurricane's destruction, the war, the soldiers, your economic plan, how you're going to reverse what's been going on ..... or go back to being a fucking hockey mom and shut the fuck up.
Now, that's all.
well... thanks, 19 year old girl for proving you really do know nothing about polotics. you do understand that you brought forth no mention of either parties economic plans? you can't say "McCain's economic plan is crap because it's not good" "Obama's economic plan is golden because it's good" and expect to be taken seriously. you do understand that obama's economic plan basically consists of taxing everyone that makes between 50 and 150 thousand a year more, and giving that to the welfare bums, right? or is that ok with you? it's a real motivational effort to get people that are unemployed to become employed by giving them more money for doing nothing, isn't it? i don't know about you, but i work hard for what i earn, and if someone came to my house and forced me at gunpoint (cuz let's face it, that's how our taxes are taken, free country indeed!) to give any amount of money to the bum that lives down the street from me more money so she can poop out another kid or two to get a little more scratch for sitting on her 350 pound ass, i really wouldn't be too enthralled on their reasoning of "it's the moral thing to do." i don't see much morality in that. i'm also not too elated on seeing anymore socialist doctrine passed in congress for more social programs, mainly because i am not too proud to start considering the u.s.a. become known as the u.s.s.a. and that is exactly what the democrats would have come to fruition. not that i want McCain in office, but i really don't want obama in office. the war? shit, ron paul wanted to pull out entirely and he's republican! so your little "all republicans want war" theory is pretty much shot to shreds by republicans with their gun laws.
and just for the record, i'm not to pleased with the republicans shredding the bill of rights, either.
all i'm trying to say here is that you really need to not base your political arguments on the age of the candidate or th fact that the media is spewing forth about shoes and hockey moms. read the friggin mission statements on the candidates websites. then spew your socialist doctrine.
slackin@dabass wrote:well... thanks, 19 year old girl for proving you really do know nothing about polotics. you do understand that you brought forth no mention of either parties economic plans? you can't say "McCain's economic plan is crap because it's not good" "Obama's economic plan is golden because it's good" and expect to be taken seriously. you do understand that obama's economic plan basically consists of taxing everyone that makes between 50 and 150 thousand a year more, and giving that to the welfare bums, right? or is that ok with you? it's a real motivational effort to get people that are unemployed to become employed by giving them more money for doing nothing, isn't it? i don't know about you, but i work hard for what i earn, and if someone came to my house and forced me at gunpoint (cuz let's face it, that's how our taxes are taken, free country indeed!) to give any amount of money to the bum that lives down the street from me more money so she can poop out another kid or two to get a little more scratch for sitting on her 350 pound ass, i really wouldn't be too enthralled on their reasoning of "it's the moral thing to do." i don't see much morality in that. i'm also not too elated on seeing anymore socialist doctrine passed in congress for more social programs, mainly because i am not too proud to start considering the u.s.a. become known as the u.s.s.a. and that is exactly what the democrats would have come to fruition. not that i want McCain in office, but i really don't want obama in office. the war? shit, ron paul wanted to pull out entirely and he's republican! so your little "all republicans want war" theory is pretty much shot to shreds by republicans with their gun laws.
and just for the record, i'm not to pleased with the republicans shredding the bill of rights, either.
all i'm trying to say here is that you really need to not base your political arguments on the age of the candidate or th fact that the media is spewing forth about shoes and hockey moms. read the friggin mission statements on the candidates websites. then spew your socialist doctrine.
And where did you get your misinformation ? You are as bad as the 19 year old.
Obama's plan IS out there for everyone to see. He will tax everyone who makes $1/4 MILLION or more. Reestablish the taxes that bush made cuts - to the top 4 %. And TAX CUTS if you make less than $1/4 Million !
McCain's plan IS to make Bush's tax cuts to the wealthy permanent. We're near economic disaster with the bailouts (the thread topic BTW) and McCain is going around pointing out that our economy is fundamentally strong. Idiot.
sorry hawk. i heard on mike mcConnel about obama's economic plan. and i have read his web page. on the thing about the regulation and whatnot? yea. i have to agree with you on it. it's dumb that the repubs deregulated it so the fallout hit the tax payers.
economic disaster? yea. pretty much. looks like if you got any cold hard cash stuffed in your mattress, it might come in handy!
Let the banks screw the people AND each other - then buy them out with a half of a Trillion dollars. Now that is socialism in it's highest form. Buy out the private sector with our tax money.
Last edited by Hawk on Sunday Sep 21, 2008, edited 1 time in total.
there is so little difference between the dems and the republicans it makes me sick. it's like arguing the difference between dr. pop and dr. thunder. they're the same. they all lie. they all cheat. they all swindle. and they all definatly have a hidden agenda. my opinion on the 08 election? take what both candidates have to say and understand it. and then don't vote. because the only way to waste your vote, is to vote!
Look, don't buy either party's line on what happened to the market. This is the result of too many factors to list here (but mostly come from unsound money & the Fed.); and contrary to the misinformation mentioned above this HAS happened before and WILL happen again unless we change our economic modus operandi . This current meltdown (caused by the deflation of a Fed created bubble), eventually cannot be avoided. All the bailout is doing is transferring the cost to the taxpayer.
That would be US, THE USA TAXPAYER. 
