drill here, drill now

[MeYatch]

it would have a huge impact on the price of oil right now, as futures traders rush to sell off what is no longer a profitable investment.

[Banned]

Oil is traded in the global market, and any from the ocean (or ANWR) would have little if any influence on the current price of oil. If it had any effect, it'd take years before we saw it. It's not like the oil companies will find new oil reserves and only sell it to Americans for a reduced price. They sell it to the highest bidder, which may be China or India. There's also the problem of refineries. However, the truth is more complicated than telling the American people 'tree huggers' are keeping gas prices high by blocking drilling.




I do not care how 'cost effective' nuclear energy is supposed to be, imho, it is NOT the way to go for the long run...just dealing with the contaminated waste it generates is reason enough to say NO to nukes! Bury the nuclear waste in your back yard, bathe in or drink some of the water used for cooling, and then tell me you are all for 'efficient nuclear power'.

True, it will not have influence right now, but in 5 years when gas is about $7 or $8 a gallon, then it have all the influence. If we had been drilling in Alaska, off our shores, and in the Utah shale, we would still have $2 gas and no need to import oil from the Mid East. We would have no need to even care about what happens in the Med East and that is a good thing.

I believe that it is the free market that should be looking at nuclear, wind and solar, not government programs.

[whitedevilone]

Oil is traded in the global market, and any from the ocean (or ANWR) would have little if any influence on the current price of oil. If it had any effect, it'd take years before we saw it. It's not like the oil companies will find new oil reserves and only sell it to Americans for a reduced price. They sell it to the highest bidder, which may be China or India. There's also the problem of refineries. However, the truth is more complicated than telling the American people 'tree huggers' are keeping gas prices high by blocking drilling.




I do not care how 'cost effective' nuclear energy is supposed to be, imho, it is NOT the way to go for the long run...just dealing with the contaminated waste it generates is reason enough to say NO to nukes! Bury the nuclear waste in your back yard, bathe in or drink some of the water used for cooling, and then tell me you are all for 'efficient nuclear power'.

Hippies Keep riding the bus.

[YankeeRose]

I heard tonight on the Backyard Rocker, Rise Phoenix Rise is taking their tour bus to be modified so it will run on used fryer oil. The exhaust will smell like fries. AWESOME! Best part for them, they'll be able to get their fuel, for the most part, FREE.
Alternative fuels, including BioDiesel and renewable, CLEAN energy such as solar and wind is the way to go!




You can choose your electricity supplier, in case you didn't realize that. (I do believe one of them is the company with the windmills.) There's more info in your bill than just the $ amount you owe.




So, y'all really believe big Oil is going to tell OPEC (and record breaking profits) 'see ya later'? That's a good one! Yep, and next big Pharma is going to lobby for beans to be legalized!

[MeYatch]

So, y'all really believe big Oil is going to tell OPEC (and record breaking profits) 'see ya later'? That's a good one! Yep, and next big Pharma is going to lobby for beans to be legalized!

they would have very little choice in the matter. If the price of crude oil goes down, they could make the same amount of money by increasing the profit margin, or they could have the same profit margin, and make less money.

I don't know what they make, I hear 4% 8% and other numbers thrown out there, but if they started making 20% or higher profit, things would happen, people would notice, right wing journalists would have less ammunition to defend them, people complaining would have more ammunition to throw at them.

[bassist_25]

I think I heard on the news that OPEC will be increasing production over the next month.

Let's just hope that if this makes gas fall a few cents, people don't decide to run out again and buy giant land tanks like they did in the late 90s and early 2000s. Then we'll be right back where we started.

[RobTheDrummer]

Oil is all about supply and demand. More countries are using more oil than ever. Record profits just mean they are selling more than they ever have, doesn't mean they are gouging. Production and shipping costs must be paid, and these people aren't doing it for free. Alternate energy is still young, I think we are still inventive enough to come up with newer and better energy resources, given time and so long as this country stays free.

Nuclear energy is clean and very efficient, however someone will always find something to cry about. Wind Power is decent at best, not very efficient, and you need a windy area all the time, and about a billion of the damn things. Then all the hippies will bitch that birds are being killed, damn birds need to watch where the fuck they are going anyways. The best thing you can do for yourself is to get into solar power, put up some panels, then sell excess back to the electric company.

[Ron]

The best thing you can do for yourself is to get into solar power, put up some panels, then sell excess back to the electric company.

I checked into this already, and unless solar cell costs go down and efficiency goes up, it just isn't feasible. Here is the math:

1. Cost per kilowatt to install solar panels - $10,000 to $15,000.
(This would supply about half of my energy needs... I would make no profit selling back to the grid).
2. What I pay now for one kilowatt hour of electric - $0.046
3. Time needed to break even on a $10,000 solar installation: 217,391 hours, about 25 years.
4. My average KWH usage for 1 month: 1500 - costs $69.00
5. What my monthly electric bill would be with a $10,000 solar panel installation: $35.88
6. The average life span of amorphous photovoltaic cells - approx. 10 years.

This isn't saying that direct solar generation won't be feasible someday, that day just isn't today, because the more efficient and longer living today's solar cells are, the more expensive they are.

[Hawk]

Oil is NOT about supply and demand. Purposely limiting supply to keep prices up is called a monopoly.

I AM one of the few democrats (I suppose) who IS for drilling. BUT also for creating laws for reigning in the big oil companies.

Question ? Does big oil make about $.08 per gallon or $.08 per dollar. ?Obviously, if they make 8 cents on the dollar , the higher the price per gallon - the more they make, and they do benefit greatly by raising prices. What is 8% of $1.99 vs. 8% of $3.99 ?

[MeYatch]

Oil is NOT about supply and demand. Purposely limiting supply to keep prices up is called a monopoly.

yep. But the monopolies are not located in the U.S. so there's not much we can do about it.

[Hawk]

Oil is NOT about supply and demand. Purposely limiting supply to keep prices up is called a monopoly.

yep. But the monopolies are not located in the U.S. so there's not much we can do about it.

I didn't say there was. I was just pointing out to the guy (ahemm, Rob) who thinks prices are driven by the traditional supply and demand concept. Not the case with the cost of oil.

I'm not smart enough to know if prices will come down if we drill. I hear arguments on both sides. But drilling makes sense to me, even if the payoff is ten years down the road.

EDIT : I think McCain flipped flopped on this to look like he cares, in other words, votes.

[MeYatch]

they are driven by supply and demand, its just that supply is artificially limited.

[YankeeRose]

Nuclear energy is clean and very efficient, however someone will always find something to cry about.

Awwwww, how cute, that's the good NeoCon thing to say about building more reactors. (I wonder, which Dubya/Cheney cronies own the companies which would be building, or own these new nuclear power plants?) Radioactive WASTE, a by-product of these plants, has to be put somewhere and takes millions of years to break down. In no Dictionary I can think of does the definition of the word waste mean something clean. (Well, there is the Tune 'Waste' by Phish. )



Btw, radioactivity (water?) was released at the Brezeale (sp.) Reactor, University Park last year. There was, of course, no danger. It's not as if they'd 'shut down' Happy Valley. It just glows a little more now, that's all.



If windmills were placed in the midwest (where it's almost always windy), they could supply a large portion of this Country's electricity. Alternative fuels (including ones able to be utilized in existing vehicles), and clean, renewable (solar/water/wind) sources of energy should be the wave of the future.

[Hawk]

they are driven by supply and demand, its just that supply is artificially limited.

Sorry, but you are so wrong. The theory of supply and demand is in a COMPETITIVE MARKET. That's the only way the traditional supply and demand concept works.

Where is the competition with either OPEC or "Big Oil" ? It's not competitive at all. It is a MONOPOLY plain and simple.

Scroll down and read "The Fundamentals". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

[Banned]

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/g ... E723948%7D

The above is an article saying changing the speculation rules on oil futures could bring the price of oil down by 50% in 30 days. They predict $2.00 per gallon gas within a month if this is done.

[MeYatch]

they are driven by supply and demand, its just that supply is artificially limited.

Sorry, but you are so wrong. The theory of supply and demand is in a COMPETITIVE MARKET. That's the only way the traditional supply and demand concept works.

Where is the competition with either OPEC or "Big Oil" ? It's not competitive at all. It is a MONOPOLY plain and simple.

Scroll down and read "The Fundamentals". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

if out of the goodness of their hearts they increased supply, price would go down.

If we drilled our own oil, supply would increase, price would go down.

There's not really an argument here, don't create one.

[Hawk]

they are driven by supply and demand, its just that supply is artificially limited.

Sorry, but you are so wrong. The theory of supply and demand is in a COMPETITIVE MARKET. That's the only way the traditional supply and demand concept works.

Where is the competition with either OPEC or "Big Oil" ? It's not competitive at all. It is a MONOPOLY plain and simple.

Scroll down and read "The Fundamentals". http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand

if out of the goodness of their hearts they increased supply, price would go down.

If we drilled our own oil, supply would increase, price would go down.

There's not really an argument here, don't create one.

There's no argument. As long as one knows the difference between a monopoly and supply and demand. "Supply and demand" controls prices via competition. Without competition you have............high gas prices.

"Monopoly" has a demand, but they DICTATE prices. Voila.....high gas prices.

Not an argument at all. Just a fact.

[Hawk]

I think that not enough people understand the difference between supply and demand and a monopoly. I hope I'm wrong.

Just because there is a demand, doesn't mean that the "supply and demand" system is in place. If many companies were suppliers and competed against each other, they would HAVE to keep prices down to stay in business and COMPETE with other companies in the same business. So, the prices are controlled by the consumer.

If one company, or a group of companies get together and agree to unite, they can create a monopoly. Since there would be no other competition, they could then dictate prices. And the greater the demand, the more power they have to dictate what YOU have to pay.

Just because there is a demand, doesn't mean that "supply and demand" is there.

[MeYatch]

well, there is a supply of oil, and there is demand for oil.

regardless, I understand what you are saying, and you understand what I'm saying, not much point in talking about it.

If we drilled for our own oil, it would break the monopoly, and force competition.

[lonewolf]

they are driven by supply and demand, its just that supply is artificially limited.

Sorry, but you are so wrong. The theory of supply and demand is in a COMPETITIVE MARKET. That's the only way the traditional supply and demand concept works.

Sorry Hawk, he is exactly right. The law of supply and demand in and of itself is working just the way its supposed to. Unfortunately, supply is throttled by anti-trust forces that are outside the U.S. jurisdiction. Since we are short on supply, the price is high. They are NOT a monopoly, but they have some power and use anti-trust methods to manipulate the markets. Remember Bill: all monopolies are anti-trust, but not all anti-trusts are monopolies.

But really, people need to look at the overall energy picture, not just oil. We use a huge amount of energy from many sources and energy use is going to grow every year whether we wean ourselves from oil or not.

One of the things that bugs me is that we have exceeded our refining capacity and are importing European unleaded gas now. Aside from competition for unleaded, we also have to pay the costs of import and transportation for the stuff. As far as the price of gas goes, that would be my 1st priority to get the U.S. off foreign unleaded with a modest increase in refining capacity. Its doable and would knock 25-50 cents off the price at the pump.

Another rarely mentioned problem is the nuclear power crisis that will occur during the next 15-30 years when existing nuclear power plants reach their lifespan and will be shut down. That's 20% of our energy that will need renewed somehow and nobody's talking about it.

I got some bad news. Jatropha plants and solar panels ain't gonna do it boys and girls. Alternative biofuels aren't any "cleaner" than coal-fired power-plants with modern scrubber technology anyway. The only real problem left with coal is CO2. You can make baking soda with CO2 and lye. I wonder how many other byproducts could be produced with CO2, especially next to a power plant? Why don't we ever hear about this stuff?

Like the man said...we are in a world of shit.

[Hawk]

they are driven by supply and demand, its just that supply is artificially limited.

Sorry, but you are so wrong. The theory of supply and demand is in a COMPETITIVE MARKET. That's the only way the traditional supply and demand concept works.

Sorry Hawk, he is exactly right. The law of supply and demand in and of itself is working just the way its supposed to. Unfortunately, supply is throttled by anti-trust forces that are outside the U.S. jurisdiction. Since we are short on supply, the price is high. They are NOT a monopoly, but they have some power and use anti-trust methods to manipulate the markets. Remember Bill: all monopolies are anti-trust, but not all anti-trusts are monopolies.

But really, people need to look at the overall energy picture, not just oil. We use a huge amount of energy from many sources and energy use is going to grow every year whether we wean ourselves from oil or not.

One of the things that bugs me is that we have exceeded our refining capacity and are importing European unleaded gas now. Aside from competition for unleaded, we also have to pay the costs of import and transportation for the stuff. As far as the price of gas goes, that would be my 1st priority to get the U.S. off foreign unleaded with a modest increase in refining capacity. Its doable and would knock 25-50 cents off the price at the pump.

Another rarely mentioned problem is the nuclear power crisis that will occur during the next 15-30 years when existing nuclear power plants reach their lifespan and will be shut down. That's 20% of our energy that will need renewed somehow and nobody's talking about it.

I got some bad news. Jatropha plants and solar panels ain't gonna do it boys and girls. Alternative biofuels aren't any "cleaner" than coal-fired power-plants with modern scrubber technology anyway. The only real problem left with coal is CO2. You can make baking soda with CO2, salt and water. I wonder how many other byproducts could be produced with CO2, especially next to a power plant? Why don't we ever hear about this stuff?

Like the man said...we are in a world of shit.

Always learn from you. I'll respond when I have time to read and understand your post.

I knew and was waiting for you to say they are not a monopoly. In fact it took longer than I expected. In my opinion and many more. "Big Oil" is a monopoly. And they are screwing us. Where is the competitive market ? We had this discussion before.

Demand and the ability to dictate prices IS a monopoly. Competition where people can shop for the best price, therefore force competition, is supply and demand.

[songsmith]

McCain said yesterday that he'd try to institute a 350 million dollar prize for battery technology that would hold a bigger charge with less weight and half the cost of current tech. I believe I said something similar a few weeks back, except my prize was a billion, and it was for better solar. Smart election move, Sen. McCain, now you're talking my language.

I personally don't think it's much of a stretch of imagination for Big Oil to get in bed with OPEC. They can conspire pretty easily to strangle the world market, because first, OPEC has the monopoly power to squeeze nonmembers out of the equation, and second because Big Oil has the size to squash independent drillers. The two sides could stay at odds, and compete, or they could conspire, keep supply low, and make lots of money with less effort. True, higher prices normally lower demand, but the price of gasoline has more than doubled in the last 5 years, and demand has only dropped a few percentage points (we NEED that gas).
It also very well could be that it's all posturing to get at those Anwar fields... at current market value, there's 3 trillion dollars worth of oil there. That's trillion with a "T." I think if the FedGov owns that oil, the American people should know what Exxon/Mobil's paying for it, and have a say in what the price to drill it will be. Perhaps even a per-barrel fee whose proceeds go to alternative-fuels research AND NOTHING ELSE, say, a third of it. A trillion dollars will get you pretty far, research-wise.

I think eventually, the price of oil will stabilize, and we still won't be able to afford it. Americans will bankrupt themselves to continue their lifestyle, as many folks feel that driving is a right (I checked the Constitution... nary a mention), and they've been doing it for generations. I think the class struggles we have now will become the stuff of nostalgia, and the difference between working-class and "management" will be gaping. Exactly the way the Neo's want it. ---->JMS

[RobTheDrummer]

Oil is a world market and we are so selfish to believe that we are the only market out there for it. We aren't the only ones using oil now. It sucks, but did you notice the price has steadily gone up since Nancy Pilosi and Harry Reed took over the majority in congress?

Yankee, water from a nuclear reactor isn't radioactive, nuclear waste is manageable. Nuclear reactors aren't nearly as dangerous as your superstitions tell you. I like the idea of wind power, but that's not efficient enough to run a country.

Ron, shut up, what do you know!

Lonewolf, always the voice of sanity.

Johnny, if you could invent a battery that is better and lighter, would you sell it to the government? Or sell it on the free market...

[Hawk]

Oil is a world market and we are so selfish to believe that we are the only market out there for it. We aren't the only ones using oil now. It sucks, but did you notice the price has steadily gone up since Nancy Pilosi and Harry Reed took over the majority in congress?

Yankee, water from a nuclear reactor isn't radioactive, nuclear waste is manageable. Nuclear reactors aren't nearly as dangerous as your superstitions tell you. I like the idea of wind power, but that's not efficient enough to run a country.

Ron, shut up, what do you know!

Lonewolf, always the voice of sanity.

Johnny, if you could invent a battery that is better and lighter, would you sell it to the government? Or sell it on the free market...

Price has gone up SINCE THE WAR ! About $28.00 a barrel before the war.

Nuclear power IS dangerous. Especially when terrorists are around.

[YankeeRose]

Yankee, water from a nuclear reactor isn't radioactive, nuclear waste is manageable. Nuclear reactors aren't nearly as dangerous as your superstitions tell you. I like the idea of wind power, but that's not efficient enough to run a country.

I won't waste any more time...you obviously know all there is to know about nuclear power plants. Especially when you say highly toxic nuclear waste is 'manageable'.



Chernobyl, Three Mile Island, other incidents of human error and their aftermath have naught to do with superstition.



(Sarcasm on.)

Countries utilizing hydro, geothermal, solar and/or wind for sources of energy don't have a clue what they're doing. They should replace it with nuke plants.

(Sarcasm off.)