Can't hear the vocals in the mix

[brokenstrings]

My band was jamming with a new singer the other day. We were sending the signals of everything but the drums through our Yamaha power mixer (500 watts x2) into a couple of 400 watt 15" Carvin cabs. I noticed right away that the vocals werent cutting through the mix at all. I mean i could barely hear the guy. We can't turn down the instruments to compensate for this because if we do then the drums will be much louder then all of us. We sound check the instruments at a volume just loud enough to mix well with the drums, so its not like were playing at 8 on the amps or anything.

It seems that our old singer had more treble in his voice and it cut through the mix naturaly. The new guy has a much more bassy voice and it's just totaly unaudible with the bass and guitars. I tweeked the vocal channel eq: low all the way down, mids 3/4 of the way down and attempted to roll on the highs but experienced feedback at about half way up. We pushed the gain up as far as we could go before experiencing feedback on the vocal channel but nothing seems to work. When we were checking the mic it seemed like it would be plenty loud but then when you added distorted guitars and some bass it was lost again.

if anyone has a suggestion on how to remedy this problem, I would greatly appreciate the help.

[nighthawk]

do those carvin cabs have horns or tweeters? are they working? did you try driving the mids on the vocals? how about an eq for the vocals. i usually mix vocals with a bit of mids and highs. gives a better cut thru mix some of the time. sometimes i have to run an eq for some cause nothing else will work.

there are some here that know a lot more about it than me. im sure someone will check in soon. im just tossing ideas.

[tonefight]

I'd bring the mids back up and try again, if you cut the mids you basically cut the majority of the frequencies important to the vocals. start with everything (eq) at the 0 mark ( not cut, not boosted ) and go from there.

Does the guy have enough natural volume ? If someone sings soft it can be difficult to get the vocals out without feedback. Also, is he using the same mic as the old singer ? The quality of the mic will play a HUG factor. I'm not a good tech head but thats my guesses.

[lonewolf]

1st make sure the Trim (Gain) is set properly on the vocalist's channel:

With the mains off, get the vocalist to hit and hold his strongest note and adjust the trim until just below clipping. Usually there is a clip LED on each channel that flashes at the onset of clipping.

If the vocal channel's mid frequency is selectable, set it for a frequency of between 3K and 3.5K and boost it until you get some clarity or below the onset of feedback.

If you are having feedback problems, you can use a Behringer Shark or Sabine SM820 to notch filter some feedback while getting more gain on the vocal channel.

Find out what the lowest usable frequency is on the cabinets and use a high pass filter (bass roll off) at that frequency. That way the amps won't waste any power on subsonics and that can help restore some power to the mids. If you are using high levels of bass without subs, that will rob your midrange of power.

[Jones]

How bout the drummer play dynamically so you can turn everything else down.

[cruseaudio]

First off this is a weird problem because the majority of singers with a lower "timbre" usually have more overtones in their voice than a guy with a higher timbre. This by itself should in theorey make the new guy "louder".

A possable reason for him not coming through the mix is because there are a lot of frequencies his voice shares with bass, and guitar, and it usually is one or two frequencies that muddy up the stage. Find them and get rid of them. Chances are they are producing "standing" waves on the sound stage which leads to a muffled or mushy sounding mess or just plain canceling each other out at the mic.

That is not your only problem though. The first thing to know about running sound is that the system is only used to make louder the things that need to be made louder.

During your sound check bring the vocals up FIRST, and ALWAYS first. Your singer should always be the loudest thing. If you get enough volume out of him to overcome the drums, you have completed step 1

step 2 Sound check the singer with the instruments playing, but just have the singer in the mix.

I'll bet things changed quite a bit didn't they? Now you see exactly what your vocal mic is picking up.
At this point if you are loosing the vocals when they are the only thing coming through the PA this means that either everyone elses instruments are up WAY to loud for the stage you are on or you have the standing wave problem I mentioned earlier.

You will need to EQ to get rid of the standing waves but you need to know who is causing them. And that is a whole new discussion in itself. This will change in every room you are in.

Keep it simple - most vocals generally work between the frequencies of 300hz to 3.5khz. some go lower and some higher, but for the purposes of live sound these are the refrence points we like to use. Guitar "grunt" is somewhere between 150 and 400hz. depending on the instrument. Middle notes from the bass also share these frequencies. This is also where most of the muffled boomy, or mushy tones are.

When these lower mid frequencies all share the same michrophone from different distances from the mic it will result in lobing or filtering, neither of which you want. The middle frequencies are the easiest to reproduce in most places because the size of the waves make them more condusive to "naturally" amplifiing themselves off of boundries. In other words- mids in bars are ALWAYS overbearing and the need to amplify these through the PA to get a flat sound is greatly minimized.

Roll off the bottm on your vocal mic channel (either a 100 or 80 hz. rolloff button) or the (low) knob on your EQ section. this will help "amplify" the vocal frequencies a little better. And your "high" knob on most mixers is usually centered at or around 12khz. which is pretty much useless in helping vocal clarity because it is out of the frequency range of the voice. Most it will do is cause feedback in a small place. 1.2 k is an important frequency to note, as it will give the preception of doubling the volume when you amplify it. Don't abuse it though as it can be very painful. It is a cheap trick only to be used as a last resort.

So your lows are rolled off, your 12k (air) is under control. Still not enough vox? If your mixer has it -center your mid parimetric section sweep knob somewhere between 100hz. and 500 hz. now take the volume of that mid section out ( counterclockwise) about 3/4. Then turn your selection knob between the 100 and 500 hz frequencies very slowly while the band is soundchacking, and as soon as your centered around the offending frequencies the sound should improve dramatically.

Beyond this- start cracking down on instrument volumes. If you are a serious band you WILL understand that whatever makes thing better for the audience sometimes takes away from perfect stage sound. You can't change the laws of physics, but you have to be mature enough to know you have to woirk with them. Half the small club shows I have ever done have hardly a stitch of , snare, guitar, and sometimes bass mixed in. Thats just physics. Well OK sometimes it is because someone in the band just "doesn't get it" or doesn't care that he is destroying the mix with his volume.

[bassist_25]

And don't forget, even with a PA, the singer still needs to be able to project his/her voice.

[tornandfrayed]

That was very nicely put and thank you for including that wealth of information! That should help out a few people!

[lonewolf]

1.2 k is an important frequency to note, as it will give the preception of doubling the volume when you amplify it. Don't abuse it though as it can be very painful. It is a cheap trick only to be used as a last resort.

1.2Khz works OK for an overall mix and keyboards, but not very well for typical vocals. Vocal clarity occurs within the 2Khz and 6Khz range, otherwise known as "presence" (for all you Marshall fans). There is a reason they call it presence. Thats why the Shure SM57 and 58 are so popular. They have an inherent "presence peak" at 4Khz that helps the vocals cut thru the mix...boosting these frequencies will help vocals cut thru the mix without giving everybody a headache.

Despite all the tech we have been posting here, I believe the button that needs pushed is the solar plexus. Nothing can compensate better than proper vocal breathing and projection techniques.