Live Sound

[Jasaoke]

I got a weird idea: I'll start a music thread! (no foul-language-arguing please)

Bands who regularly play in front of people are bound to run into dramatically different sound reinforcement scenarios. My questions for group discussion are:

How does a group prepare for these different situations, if at all?

Is it 'worthwhile' to cart your own PA, and shoehorn it onto an already crowded stage? Maybe just your own monitor rig?

Considering the extremely wide range of equipment, it's level of functionality, and the varying competencies of those using it, how does a band keep a decent handle on its "sound"? (I think we all should)

I suppose the trump question would be: Who cares?
Do any of the people who go to hear bands even notice the difference between a good mix and a megaphone?

[RamRod 1]

I suppose the trump question would be: Who cares?
Do any of the people who go to hear bands even notice the difference between a good mix and a megaphone?

Yes, the crowd thinks a lot less about the music than the band. Remember, in a bar the majority of people may be looking for someone of the opposite sex and they're not even thinking about the band.

If you're using your own stuff or the house equipment, it's always tough to get a great sound and you can't really know what you sound like when you're up on stage, so I think that what the more seasoned or professional bands do is just "GO" with what ever it sounds like and concentrate on a great show and just live with whatever the sound is.

[jb31dtr]

I can speak for some of us that are "the crowd" at many bar shows. You would be suprised how much people actually DO notice.

Especially today I think you would be suprised at most band shows that alot of the people are there to enjoy the band. The ones that are only looking to pick someone up is most likely up the road at a DJ with no cover charge many nights.

Maybe it is due to my doing karaoke on nights I am not out enjoying or taking photos of bands, but I can definately tell when sound is good or bad. I can especially pick up on either too overpowering or not nearly enough vocals. Trust me the people are actually paying more attention to the band than what you may think so it does matter.

[bassist_25]

I can speak for some of us that are "the crowd" at many bar shows. You would be suprised how much people actually DO notice.

+1 to what Joel's saying. It's been my experience both on stage and in the audience that people do care about the mix. No, they're not sitting there saying, "Dude, I'd like to hear a little more 4k on the vocals, but the gate on the kick really makes it punch," but I've seen people leave clubs on more than one occasion due to the sound sucking, even if the band was otherwise great. I've always said that people don't give the audience enough credit. I've also been of the philosophy that if you really want to be taken seriously, then you should strive to have the most professional sound possible. That doesn't mean you need huge production (or even an expensive PA). I've heard great mixes from bands who ran two Yamaha speakers on sticks because they knew how to properly operate their backline.

On topic to this thread, after playing Pelly's with full blown production for years, I played Pelly's with a small PA without bass reinforcement this past Sunday. To account for the somewhat wide room without bass reinforcement through the PA, I ran a 4x10 on each side of the drum kit. That worked out well, and I didn't seem to get a lot of phase cancellation. I still hated load out at the end of the night, though.

P.S. I don't want to sound too preachy here, but something we've always done is side-wash the stage with our rigs whenever we're using full FOH support. You can cut down on volume when trying to hear each other and don't have to rely on guitar cutting your head off through the monitor. Phasing problems with the PA are minimized, and it makes hearing each other on stage a lot easier. Now, it sounds strange to me when playing in an ensemble without the guitar rig pointing at me from across the stage.

[floodcitybrass]

How does a group prepare for these different situations, if at all?

Depends how pick you are and where you are playing. Sometimes you can be demanding and sometimes you can't. If a PA system is provided you can provide a rider.

Is it 'worthwhile' to cart your own PA, and shoehorn it onto an already crowded stage? Maybe just your own monitor rig?

Depends.
Are you going to bring someone to mix the montors for you? Is there already a front of house guy? It's nice to have a soundguy that goes with you whereever and mixes the band for you.

Considering the extremely wide range of equipment, it's level of functionality, and the varying competencies of those using it, how does a band keep a decent handle on its "sound"? (I think we all should)

Go out and listen if you can. But I am pretty picky and I am specific on how I want it mixed.
For example, many sound guys around here like to flex their subwoofer penis and allow the kick drum to dominate the mix.
I can't stand that.
I insist that the vocals dominate the mix..... and no I am not a lead singer.

I suppose the trump question would be: Who cares?
Do any of the people who go to hear bands even notice the difference between a good mix and a megaphone?

People do notice. That problem is that they don't speak sound jargon and cannot explain exactly they perceive is wrong.
So they can't explain it. They just know it sounds bad.
For example: Clipping - they say "It's breaking up"
also - a bad mix can be perceived as "too loud"

The truth is that there are alot of people that don't know what the hell they are doing. They buy some behringer, rane, and mackie garbage and connect a sonic maximizer then start a sound company. The services available thread seems to have a new sound provider each week.

Don't get me wrong. There are some good guys out there too. They don't need to advertise because everyone knows who they are.

So the sound business is made up of clueless warriors and pro providers. There's really no middle ground. The really good guys don't typically waste their time earning $100-$200 a night at a bar. They good guys are usually a minimum $800 per day and up for a basic 3 hour shows, indoors with minimal lighting.

There's some bands that do a really good job of running their own sound too because they have learned to adjust the mix settings to their liking.

My advice is that if you are going to get a PA, do the research. Talk to lots of people. Get lots of opiniions. Read up on the gear. Take your time and don't jump in too it too fast. Better to do it right the first time. You can get a decent PA at a decent price... Most of the sound is going to be the person controlling it. I have heard shitty PAs sound great and I have heard expensive PAs sound like garbage.

My last advice would be that if you do get a PA system, don't start a PA company one week later.

[bassist_25]

For example, many sound guys around here like to flex their subwoofer penis and allow the kick drum to dominate the mix.
I can't stand that.
I insist that the vocals dominate the mix..... and no I am not a lead singer.

Totally agree - I think for me, though, it comes down to most music mixed for the radio having the vocals on top, so that's what I like to hear. However, in my experience, having a great vocal mix starts with having a vocalist who can project. I've seen a number of engineers clipping at the input stage in an attempt to get vocalists who haven't developed good technique on top of the mix.

I don't mind a pounding kick mix. However, I do hate hearing the 40hz turf war between the kick and bass guitar that seems to dominate some mixes.

[Jasaoke]

bassist_25, I totally agree about the side-fills. If done right, they can provide adequate monitoring for most (or all) off the band, they keep stage volume down, and it makes the band agree on a mix, which helps groove dramatically.

The crowd does know a lot. They know what sounds decent and what doesn't. And they know music. They can tell when something is amiss.

Lately I've been thinking that a lot of people are getting their ears "trained" on iPods and Blackberrys. Don't get me wrong, I love the availability of music these days, but I think that the earbuds and little docking stations are now the stardard by which non-musicians are judging music. Nobody really has BIG home stereos any more, and analog technology is disappearing over the horizon. But live sond is raw, dirty and very analog.

[P MAC]

That last comment has me thinking! Is it the goal of live performance to approximate recorded music or.........is recording an attempt to capture the spirit of live performance? My initial thought is that the process of recording initiated to capture live performance, but it has evolved in the other direction over the years.

[LHSL]

bassist_25, I totally agree about the side-fills. If done right, they can provide adequate monitoring for most (or all) off the band, they keep stage volume down, and it makes the band agree on a mix, which helps groove dramatically.

Sidefills are pretty much a must in the Varsity leagues of the music world. I've deployed and used several configurations and when done right, they can be simply amazing. Like having a HQ studio monitor in your face while singing (though I'm not a performer and can't speak to how they help a singer). Mind you, nearly every side fill I've worked with is bigger than pretty much any bar PA system in a 50 mile radius of here. That said, for small venues, side fills are useless. Typically the stage (if you even have a stage) is way to small for this to work. On big stages, the side fills are typically 35-40ft away from the musicians. So the difference in volume from downstage to upstage is only about 3dB. On a small stage, the performers on stage right and left are litterally on top of the side fill and it's screaming loud for them (they may like this, they may not). The guy that needs the side fill the most is probably the lead singer, and he/she will most likely be downstage-center and they keep asking for more level, while the two waterbags on stage left and right not only block the HF sound but might not want to lose their hearing.

Unless you are on a big league sized deck, my recommendation is to skip side fills for monitoring.

The crowd does know a lot. They know what sounds decent and what doesn't. And they know music. They can tell when something is amiss.

Lately I've been thinking that a lot of people are getting their ears "trained" on iPods and Blackberrys. Don't get me wrong, I love the availability of music these days, but I think that the earbuds and little docking stations are now the stardard by which non-musicians are judging music. Nobody really has BIG home stereos any more, and analog technology is disappearing over the horizon. But live sond is raw, dirty and very analog.

I agree that audience members can tell. But I'd refer you back to floodcitybrass' comments. Typically the crowd members don't speak audio or sound or acoustics. They just know it's not like the CD.

I disagree that MP3s, iPods, and earbuds have brought down sound quality expectations. If anything, it has made better quality music more widely available. Agreed, it's not audiophile quality but I've only been to about 5 concerts that could claim audiophile quality, and they sure as hell weren't rock and roll.

Yes, MP3s *can* sound terrible, but they can also be quite good. Most of the downloads available from iTunes now are in AAC (better than MP3 bit for bit) and are encoded at 192kbs or higher. This makes most recordings nearly indistinguishable to CDs for the average music listner.

More and more people have become accustomed to CD quality sound and this is expected at concerts now (maybe not bars/clubs). This topic is widely discussed in Pro Sound circles and the advancements made in the last 10 years in concert sound and loudspeaker building have been astonishing.

On the flip side, the cost of entry has been lowered. Any Joe Schmoe with a big credit line can buy gear and attempt a small to mid sized concert with headlinging acts. Couple that with the fact that more and more up and coming bands have access to a wider audience via the internet and spring into stardom quite quickly... They nominate a buddy that helped them hump gear into the "Band Engineer" position and put them in the driver's seat behind million dollar PA systems at festivals around the country. Couple these facts and it can lead to a lot of disasterous results, leaving concert goers unhappy and less interested in live audio.

[bassist_25]

I disagree about sidefills being worthless on smaller stages - at least sidefills with the backline. After doing countless gigs with sidefilled backline and then doing sub gigs with the backline pointed the "traditional" way, towards the audience, I had to work to hear the guitar.

Then again, my good friend, Kent T., who played bass in my band while I was in North Carolina, said that we're the loudest band as far as stage volume that he's ever played with. Back when I primarily used solid-state gear, it wasn't uncommon for me to have 1600 watts hanging in my rack. So maybe that's why sidefills worked so well for us.

[LHSL]

I disagree about sidefills being worthless on smaller stages - at least sidefills with the backline. After doing countless gigs with sidefilled backline and then doing sub gigs with the backline pointed the "traditional" way, towards the audience, I had to work to hear the guitar.

Then again, my good friend, Kent T., who played bass in my band while I was in North Carolina, said that we're the loudest band as far as stage volume that he's ever played with. Back when I primarily used solid-state gear, it wasn't uncommon for me to have 1600 watts hanging in my rack. So maybe that's why sidefills worked so well for us.

If by "sidefills" you mean turning the guitar amp cabinet and the bass amp cabinit to point accross the stage, then we are talking about different things.

[bassist_25]

That last comment has me thinking! Is it the goal of live performance to approximate recorded music or.........is recording an attempt to capture the spirit of live performance? My initial thought is that the process of recording initiated to capture live performance, but it has evolved in the other direction over the years.

Totally agree, though I think we're getting back to basics a little more in the past couple of years. There was a time in the mid-2000s where you'd pop in a disc from a four-piece band with one guitar and be treated with multi-layered guitar tracks, vocal harmonies that would rival most Southern Black gospel choirs (when only two of the members were listed as vocals), extensive keyboard work (when nobody in the band played keyboard), and kazoo solos. There was no way these bands were replicating their records live in a respectable manner unless A). they were getting hired gun touring musicians or B). they were doing a lot of looping, sampling, and precorded tracking in concert. The Beatles and George Martin were noted with "treating the studio as its own instrument"; but when you listen to a Beatles album, you still get the feeling that they could easily replicate their stuff live. For the record, I always found a lot of Zepplin's live stuff disappointing because Jimmy Page always ran amok in the studio with muti-tracking his guitar parts.

To me, recording became a lot of smoke and mirrors in the 2000s, with otherwise mediocre artists sounding like a million bucks because their labels dumped money into getting overproduced albums. The producers were the ones who should have be winning the awards and getting the gold records, because they were tasked with taking four kids who could barely play and making them sound like a seasoned band. Fall Out Boy is a band that comes to mind.

I'm hearing a lot more back to basics with the newer records coming out. There's still some layering, but albums aren't sounding like 729 musicians in the studio, laying down tracks at the same time.

[bassist_25]

I disagree about sidefills being worthless on smaller stages - at least sidefills with the backline. After doing countless gigs with sidefilled backline and then doing sub gigs with the backline pointed the "traditional" way, towards the audience, I had to work to hear the guitar.

Then again, my good friend, Kent T., who played bass in my band while I was in North Carolina, said that we're the loudest band as far as stage volume that he's ever played with. Back when I primarily used solid-state gear, it wasn't uncommon for me to have 1600 watts hanging in my rack. So maybe that's why sidefills worked so well for us.

If by "sidefills" you mean turning the guitar amp cabinet and the bass amp cabinit to point accross the stage, then we are talking about different things.

That's what I figured, which is why I specifically said I was talking about backline.

[LHSL]

I disagree about sidefills being worthless on smaller stages - at least sidefills with the backline. After doing countless gigs with sidefilled backline and then doing sub gigs with the backline pointed the "traditional" way, towards the audience, I had to work to hear the guitar.

Then again, my good friend, Kent T., who played bass in my band while I was in North Carolina, said that we're the loudest band as far as stage volume that he's ever played with. Back when I primarily used solid-state gear, it wasn't uncommon for me to have 1600 watts hanging in my rack. So maybe that's why sidefills worked so well for us.

If by "sidefills" you mean turning the guitar amp cabinet and the bass amp cabinit to point accross the stage, then we are talking about different things.

That's what I figured, which is why I specifically said I was talking about backline.

To be clear though, your original post said nothing about backline when you talked about side-washes nor did the reply.

Now that I re-read the part about using 4x10s on either side of the drummer, I find this a little absurd too. If you can't hear the bass guitar on a small stage then I would look to issues with the bass rig itself.

[bassist_25]

To be clear though, your original post said nothing about backline when you talked about side-washes nor did the reply.

P.S. I don't want to sound too preachy here, but something we've always done is side-wash the stage with our rigs whenever we're using full FOH support.

Rigs in my nomenclature generally refers to backline, not monitors.

Now that I re-read the part about using 4x10s on either side of the drummer, I find this a little absurd too. If you can't hear the bass guitar on a small stage then I would look to issues with the bass rig itself.

Two cabs was not for hearing on stage; it was for dispersion in a larger room without full FOH support. Yes, I know there is danger with phase cancellation with that set up.

[ToonaRockGuy]

As a drummer, I just have a couple opinions to point out...

Now that I re-read the part about using 4x10s on either side of the drummer, I find this a little absurd too. If you can't hear the bass guitar on a small stage then I would look to issues with the bass rig itself.

I love having bass cabs on either side of me. It helps to balance what I hear, and gives me a bit more bottom end "feel". When I was with Scream, Robert Port would split his rig in this fashion and I really heard and felt the bass well. Additionally, it was one less thing for my monitor mix to have to worry about. Remember, most monitors aren't made to deliver serious bass. Plus, for people who are right in front of the stage, it gave a balanced bass sound rather than only hearing it on one side.

I disagree about sidefills being worthless on smaller stages - at least sidefills with the backline. After doing countless gigs with sidefilled backline and then doing sub gigs with the backline pointed the "traditional" way, towards the audience, I had to work to hear the guitar.

I couldn't agree more. Having played numerous times with Bad Daze, I always liked having the rigs sidefilling. Makes it much easier to hear, and that is less work for the soundman/monitor tech to deal with. The less I have to ask for in my monitor, the better the sound tech is gonna like me.

As long as the stage volume is controlled well, having guitar and bass cabs shooting across the stage rules.

Also, FutureBobby, we are in dire need of a new old sKool quote. While I appreciate the sonic qualities inherent in broccoli, and do agree that it is an outstanding tone vegetable, I do find myself pining for more of Kenny's wisdom.

[bassist_25]

I love having bass cabs on either side of me. It helps to balance what I hear, and gives me a bit more bottom end "feel". When I was with Scream, Robert Port would split his rig in this fashion and I really heard and felt the bass well. Additionally, it was one less thing for my monitor mix to have to worry about.

Plus, it just looked plain bad ass when he did it.

(I'm not dragging 2 4x10s and 2 1x15s to every gig, though, to look bad ass. Nor would I want to try and fit that many cabs in my car.)

Also, FutureBobby, we are in dire need of a new old sKool quote. While I appreciate the sonic qualities inherent in broccoli, and do agree that it is an outstanding tone vegetable, I do find myself pining for more of Kenny's wisdom.

Agreed, and Kenny has been laying down some sweet quotes as of late. I'll have a new one after tomorrow.

[lonewolf]

I am glad to see a good "sound" musical thread on Rockpage...

Unfortunately, this is the wrong forum.

"Tech Sector" would be more appropriate...

tech...tech...tech...

{that was for Paul's benefit}

[nighthawk]

have you ever heard a singer say "I Can't Hear Myself". my biggest complaint is when you got a 4x12 or two on stage plus a bass rig all cranked up and all i hear is complaints about not being able to hear the vocals. i have never seen a 1x15 monitor that can compete with a guitar rig that is cranked. i give the lead vocals two 1x15 monitors. there may be some out there but i have yet to find it. stage volume in every aspect can ruin a mix weather it be FOH or monitor mix just as quickly as the worst sound guy.

[Jasaoke]

I hear you nighthawk. I played with a drummer one time who insisted on banging the crap out of his kit all the time. Between songs he'd say "I can't hear anything" and the rest of us would say "Neither can we". Then he'd just go back to pounding.

Lonewolf, I don't think that our discussion has become "technical" The original post was more philosophical, and while we've used SOME industry 'jargon', no one has delved into the meat and potatoes of audio engineering.
Besides, isn't this better than the bickering we too often see here?

[floodcitybrass]

Lonewolf, I don't think that our discussion has become "technical" The original post was more philosophical, and while we've used SOME industry 'jargon', no one has delved into the meat and potatoes of audio engineering.
Besides, isn't this better than the bickering we too often see here?

+1

[bassist_25]

tech...tech...tech...

{that was for Paul's benefit}

If I had more room, that would go in my sig line.

[funkmeister]

[quote="bassist_25"][quote="floodcitybrass"]
For example, many sound guys around here like to flex their subwoofer penis and allow the kick drum to dominate the mix.
I can't stand that.
I insist that the vocals dominate the mix..... and no I am not a lead singer.[/quote]

Totally agree - I think for me, though, it comes down to most music mixed for the radio having the vocals on top, so that's what I like to hear. However, in my experience, having a great vocal mix starts with having a vocalist who can project. I've seen a number of engineers clipping at the input stage in an attempt to get vocalists who haven't developed good technique on top of the mix.

I don't mind a pounding kick mix. However, I do hate hearing the 40hz turf war between the kick and bass guitar that seems to dominate some mixes.[/quote]

I like control of our sound from the stage unless outdoors or in some cavernous space. A PA that is kind of "modular" that can go from a couple of 2 or 3 ways on sticks to a larger format - complete with subs and plenty of reserve power will go a long way. However the main ingredient to good sound is EXPERIENCE and an ability to step outside of yourself and listen to everything. I am also not a big fan of tons of cabinets crowded into some small bar with mics or DI's everywhere. Too cluttered, too much and not effective. Many times less yields more. Same goes for stacks of marshalls when you could get a reaally cookin' sound from that Deluxe reverb you left at home! If I use a sound guy - he should spend some time with the band at practice and get a feel for what to expect.

[Jasaoke]

funmeister and floodcity: I'm afraid I have to raise an issue:

As an audio engineer by trade, one of the most difficult things I've had to do as a musician is to give up my say in how anything I'm playing is mixed. I think that performers MUST give up any, if not all, control over the mix. Your position on stage prevents you from being able to hear anything of relevance from the FOH. And if you try to make or dictate adjustments from there, you may end up with a band that sounds great from the stage, but it's how it sounds from the audience that matters. That is the entire reason why mix positions are in the audience.

I agree that you can work with an engineer to build and understanding of how your group wants to come across, but I think it is dangerous (if not overstepping professional boundaries) to try to control a mix from stage.

[LHSL]

funmeister and floodcity: I'm afraid I have to raise an issue:

As an audio engineer by trade, one of the most difficult things I've had to do as a musician is to give up my say in how anything I'm playing is mixed. I think that performers MUST give up any, if not all, control over the mix. Your position on stage prevents you from being able to hear anything of relevance from the FOH. And if you try to make or dictate adjustments from there, you may end up with a band that sounds great from the stage, but it's how it sounds from the audience that matters. That is the entire reason why mix positions are in the audience.

I agree that you can work with an engineer to build and understanding of how your group wants to come across, but I think it is dangerous (if not overstepping professional boundaries) to try to control a mix from stage.

Jasaoke,

I think what floodcitybrass was getting at is that as a band, you can demand what equipment is used and what style of mix to create. Not necessarily demand that it sound perfect when standing in the backline. The amount, type, and deployment of it. Some bands, like Flood City Brass, have such a myriad of things going on, many sound companies simply cannot provide what they need. A nine piece rock band is much different than a four piece. They need different mics (for brass), more stage mixes, but not necessarily something that can go to death metal type volume. (I have nothing against death metal, I like my death metal just as loud as the next guy)

There have been too many times where I have heard someone mix a swing band with death metal kick or ride a guitar fader all night long burying the vocals at a wedding or gala.

I do not think it is unprofessional or beyond the scope of reasonable requests for a band who has never worked with a particular sound system operator to lay down some ground rules like: "please make the vocals the loudest thing in the mix," "please do not use a heavy delay effect accept for songs X and Y," "please don't make our kick drum sound like GWAR's," or "please feature the brass, guitar, or keys in this song."

As an operator I welcome this kind of information along with preferred effects on certain songs or solos to watch out for. What I don't appreciate is nit-picking all the way through a show, especailly if the nit-picking is accompianed by an attitude or a complete lack of sound jargon knoweldge. I also don't appreciate bands that have no ceiling on their stage volume and continually request to have the monitors turned up.

Finally, I also do not think it's unprofessional or beyond the realm of reasonable requests to ask for specific kinds of microphones for certain instruments, to ask for a minimum number of stage monitor mixes, or to ask to listen to the PA with some recorded music and decide if it sounds good or not. Additionally, if you can not provide those things for them I think it completely appropriate to ask to have you removed as the provider or refuse to perform. Granted you can't do this if you are a brand new garage band at your first paying gig or have never played outside of a local bar and have now struck it big. That brings us full circle to floodcitybrass's first point:

Depends how picky [sic] you are and where you are playing. Sometimes you can be demanding and sometimes you can't.

Generally speaking, if the sound guy has more experience than two or more of the most experienced band members, then STFU and play.