Guitar tone...subjective??

Craven Sound · Post by **Craven Sound** » Sunday Feb 29, 2004

I'll admit that I'm a dummie when it comes to guitar tone. I typically mic the amp, and only do minor tweaks on the eq, because I don't want to "color" the sound. My question is, How subjective is guitar tone? It seems that every player has their own idea of what sounds good, or even what sounds acceptable. I've gotten to hear many different guitarists lately, and sometimes I cringe on how bad their amps sound. Any idea how to guage tone? How about the general sound of the instrument?

Mike

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Feb 29, 2004

To make matters worse, the guitarists themselves don't always know how to gauge the sound. How many times have you heard a guy standing in front of his amp grinning at how awesome it sounds when he is playing by himself, only to have the guitar disappear feebly in the mix when the rest of the band is playing? Or heard a tone that sounds ugly by itself, but mixes sooo nicely?

For a sound guy, I think it's a matter of helping the band get the sound they are trying to put across. If they are playing harsh, angry music and have harsh, angry guitar sounds, then go with it, even if it may not be a sound that you prefer. Getting feedback from the band is a big help. Get the guitarists in front of speakers and see what they think. What's coming through the speakers is probably not exactly what they had in mind, and a dose of reality is a great wake-up call. If you can't tweak their tone the way they like it, let them know what they can do to help you out. If necessary, bring along a chalkboard and make them write "I will not dial in more low-end than the bass player and the Mid knob is my friend" 1000 times.

Post by **Ron** » Sunday Feb 29, 2004

Yes Jimi... the mid knob is your friend.

A nice punch in the EQ around 400 Hz can sometimes alleviate the "lost in the mix" syndrome. It can make the guitar by itself sound a bit "tubby", but when the other instruments are mixed in, it helps bring out the fundamental frequencies of the guitar.

Metal bands with two guitar players can be really hard to mix if both players have a lot of distortion induced harmonics in the 2KHz to 4KHz range. When you add a vocalist on top of it, it's hard to get definition.

In those cases I like to give each player his "own bandwidth" by punching the eq at different octaves for each player. It will usually make one sound "middy" and the other "bitey", but it can help add some openness and space to the overall mix. Plus I like to keep the 2KHz to 4KHz octave reserved for the vocals as much as possible.

rickw · Post by **rickw** » Sunday Feb 29, 2004

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Oh, and don't let that big virtual door hit your swollen head on the way out.

Well Ron, since the lock was on I had to send this quote somewhere! That is beautiful. Anyway, tone is subjective for the guitarist that's for sure! But as listeners, we hear so many guitar tones that every now and then some jump out and I say "how the hell did he sound like that? Geez, sure wish I could get that sound!" The Eddie brown sound, Gilmour's dripping tone, the bite that the old blues guys got, the laser screaming tone of Roy Buchanan, the warmth of George Benson. Man it goes on, don't it? That's one of the reasons I love guitar so much, it speaks in many, many languages.

Post by **Ron** » Sunday Feb 29, 2004

Howdy Rick...

I think my favorite guitar sound of all time belongs to Brian May. That solo transition between "We Will Rock You" and "We Are the Champions" still gives me chills. I can only get guitar equipment to sound like that right before something blows up.

I have the "Starfleet Project" on vinyl, it's a collaboration between Brian May and EVH, so the guitar sounds are as thick as peanut butter. The B side is nothing but one long blues jam. About 15 minutes in, you can hear Eddie break a string. His guitar goes entirely out of tune, but he just keeps on playing.

Man I gotta dig that up and give it a listen.

daveb · Post by **daveb** » Sunday Feb 29, 2004

When a guy starts playing live gigs (as opposed to the dead kind) he usually has to realize that the super saturated overdrive tone that sounded great in his bedroom just isn't going to cut it live. Especially if he's just miking a cabinet. I had to learn the hard way. I started out using an old Fender Twin and a Big Muff. It sounded Tony Iomi's wet dream in my bedroom. When I started gigging I just couldn't hear anything. I kept turning up and up but the amp just saturated more. I tried putting it up on a stand so that it was almost at head level. Finally we recorded some shows and when you could hear my amp it sounded like a bumble bee in a coffee can. I got a slicker distortion device.....then I got 50 more distortion devices......and finally by the end of Ask a Stranger I was using 4 channels on the board. My Marshall for over to top chunk, 2 GK 100 watt combos running stereo effects and a Sans Amp running direct for a dry, down the middle sound. Our sound tech could then dial in what ever he needed on any given song and I was in Hog Heaven cause I had all the tone I wanted. Of course, I got a whole side of the stage to my self on account of the volume thing. Still, the quest for tone is ongoing.

Post by **Ron** » Sunday Feb 29, 2004

Dave,
How did you control everything in that setup? Sounds like you needed a custom controller for on stage.

DMFJ03 · Post by **DMFJ03** » Monday Mar 01, 2004

If you want a person that will educate you to the point of sickness about tone, you need to contact Matt_22.

My brothers in axehood, talked about tone for two hours on the way back from Monroeville to Ebensburg - without saying the same thing twice! Matt, or Mr. Rakar as I like to call him, will jabber your ear off. If you seriously want someone to rap with, I'm sure he would be glad to help you out.

old Skool · Post by **old Skool** » Monday Mar 01, 2004

There are so many things that can color your tone-pick ups, effects, cables, wireless units etc. Experiment with different set ups & see what you get. The most important thing is that you have a sound that doesn't get lost in the mix. As others have mentioned above you really need some mids to stand out. The "death metal" mid scooped sound is great until you throw it in the mix & it gets lost. Take some time during sound check and work with the engineer to see what makes your guitar sound best through their system. A good working relationship with the engineer will go a long way. I use a Sansamp preamp & run direct. Most engineers cringe when I tell them this but after a few seconds of sound check they're all smiles. This eliminates the mic coloring your tone (although I can get a fat mix by running direct & using a mic). Also talk to people at gigs and see what they're using. I'm more than happy to discuss gear & set ups (as you can see I've rambled on long enough already!).

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Mar 01, 2004

My question is, How subjective is guitar tone? It seems that every player has their own idea of what sounds good, or even what sounds acceptable.

Tone is a matter of personal preference to the guitarist. If you are unhappy with your tone, you should experiment as much as possible until you are happy with it. When you find that tone, it's yours and its sort of a "signature".

The only thing I would suggest is that you stay away from being too muddy or too tinny, although even that has worked for some over the years.

daveb · Post by **daveb** » Monday Mar 01, 2004

To reply to Ron's post, yeah, I had a friend that is handy with electronics make a 3 way splitter box. My signal went throught my tuner, into the splitter. One path went to the Sans Amp that went DI to the stage snake. One went to the Marshall that was always running on Mass Kill tone. The other signal went to my effects rack then out in stereo to the 2 GK combos. I controlled the effects rack with a Yamaha Midi pedal board. I also have a 2 channel rack mounted Rat distortion that I used to over drive one or both of the GK's and the channel switching foot switch for the combo's to go from clean to punch to crunch. I used a good wireless system that kept everything pretty quiet in that it prevented any grounding problems. I'm all about the tone. Probably more about the tone than the notes if the truth be told.

Post by **Ron** » Monday Mar 01, 2004

Sounds like a pretty versatile setup, Dave.

I agree with your quote about tone. I'd rather listen to an average player with a good sound than a shredder with the "bumblebee in a coffee can" sound.

Ronnyd · Post by **Ronnyd** » Monday Mar 01, 2004

wow !I love this one!I think every thing you use colors your tone.
The greats sound like themselves through everything they use,no-matter what they are using.ie: Felix playing with my stuff always sounds better to me ,than me playing through my stuff.
So for pure tone I say it comes from fingers,guitar,and soul.
Here is a handy tip ,Play your amp at home with a vacuum cleaner running.
To simulate crowd noise etc... this really works!P.S. a wall of Marshalls never hurts!!!

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Monday Mar 01, 2004

Let's face it fellow pickers Tone is king. From the plaintive cry of Stevie Ray to the warm and cuddly buzz saw of Randy Rhodes, there is nuthin like good tone. Never been much of a metal-head, myself, I always appreciate guys who play with little or No effects, Like Mark Knopfler (Dire Straits) Hershel Yatovitz (Chris Issak), or Steve Cropper (The Blues Brothers) Let the guitar sing out clean with as little processing as possible.

That's tone.

daveb · Post by **daveb** » Monday Mar 01, 2004

Speaking of fingers and tone and soul. I once heard a story about Jeff Beck and Brian May. Of course both of those guys are well known for their distinct tone. Anyway, the two of them were in a studio together. From outside the studio the engineers could hear the two of them trading riffs. Naturally, Beck sounded like Beck and May sounded like May. The big suprise was that when the engineers walked into the studio, Beck was playing May's rig and May was playing Beck's rig. So, it really is more about the player than the rig. Not that I'm sure that would apply to someone like me that is more about the tone than technique.

Post by **Ron** » Monday Mar 01, 2004

Good one about the vacuum Ronny.
If someone asks you what you're doing with the vacumm running, just say "Cleaning up my guitar sound" (or some off-color comment about sucking).

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Monday Mar 01, 2004

I was never much of a gear head at all, I use a processor now since I need a flange and trem and some different effects but when I was in a straight up classic rock band I just ran my strat into a peavey tube amp with the knobs straight up at 5 and actually got alot of " I can't believe you get that sound outta that " I find it harder to get a nice thick solid tone with the processor though, especially when I'm using the effects. I wish I could go back to a simple set up but we're doing too many songs with effects and I need too many different distortion and overdrive sounds and boosts and such.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Tuesday Mar 02, 2004

Doesn't May play through a Vox practice amp? Like a little tiny one? I can see where that would create a bit of compression that would complement his tone. His touch is more important to his tone,I think, though. His left hand vibrato is pretty recognizable, and he layers every line,too.
I thought I was the only person on the planet who had the Starfleet Project record. I wore out the grooves on that one before somebody stole it. I DL'ed some tracks from Kazaa, but it's not the same somehow. Great record!---->JMS

witchhunt · Post by **witchhunt** » Tuesday Mar 02, 2004

I remember reading an article once that said Brian May often uses a British coin for a pick. I could see that making a difference.

Post by **Ron** » Tuesday Mar 02, 2004

I think you're right about the Vox amp songsmith. One reason that I think May had such a unique sound is his "Red Special" guitar, made out of an oak table and an old fireplace mantle.

Here's a link to details about the "Red Special".
http://www.brianmayworld.com/redspecial_details.htm