Ok so maybe some of you guys out there can shed some light on my problem. What does it take to get a freaking show at some of these joints around here. We have done the smaller clubs(trying to pay them dues) and alot of them are great, but alot of the clubs don't draw a crowd which is tough to build a crowd from.
I have delivered very nice looking and well done promo packs with glosy photos,a studio quality cd,song lists,press reviews,and other essential info. And have proceeded to call over and over to no avail. (my cell bill is out of hand!) I have even tried the stop in to some of the closer places. I'm starting to feel like a bit of a pest. And it's not that i'm entirely new to the booking end of things or that the band is all that new. Now don't get me wrong i never expected it to be easy by any stretch or just have stuff dumped in my lap. It's just looking at some other bands(and i am truely happy for them) within their first 2-3 months getting into the places i have been trying to get into for the last year is a bit of a kick to the head. So i ask my peers and mentors for advice and tips. (i am the student i unlike certain people i don't think i know everything!) (is it all who you know or is it a bad time for non heavy bands????)(does it take getting raped by a booking company to get good shows??)
Any advice is greatly appreciated.
Todd
I Feel Like Banging My Head Off A Brick Wall!!!
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Skate Toad
- Gold Member
- Posts: 320
- Joined: Friday Apr 04, 2003
- Location: Altoona
I Feel Like Banging My Head Off A Brick Wall!!!
I didn't do it! It was the other guy! I Swear to God!!
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Chevelle7982
- Gold Member
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Thursday Apr 10, 2003
- Location: Mifflintown
Dude, I am somewhat new to this all as well. It seems like you are doing all that you can do and i commend you for this. It is very hard sometimes. I do all the booking for my band and I am only 21 and I've been doing since i was younger. I find that opening can sometimes be of great help. Before my band had a demo, which still isn't to the perfection that I had hoped for, we decided to open for bands. That way, the owners or managers can see first hand what you can do on the stage. sometimes demo's and press kits can be deceiving but they are stll the better way to go. All I can do is wish you well, from one musician to another!
Actions speak louder than words!!
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Skate Toad
- Gold Member
- Posts: 320
- Joined: Friday Apr 04, 2003
- Location: Altoona
opening
Thanks man! Yeah i'm looking into the opening thing also. That can be just as tough as getting into the club itself tho. But good luck yourself.
See you in the trenches.
Todd
I would ask the almighty his/her advice but i'm not worthy since i didn't want to destroy my musically free spirit with a degree. I like robots but that doesn't mean i want to be one! just playin
See you in the trenches.
Todd
I would ask the almighty his/her advice but i'm not worthy since i didn't want to destroy my musically free spirit with a degree. I like robots but that doesn't mean i want to be one! just playin
I didn't do it! It was the other guy! I Swear to God!!
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Chevelle7982
- Gold Member
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Thursday Apr 10, 2003
- Location: Mifflintown
I know where you're coming from, Todd. Getting bookings can be the toughest part of the business, and you can have a great band with a great promo pack and still get the cold shoulder. I've seen it in many areas, not just in PA.
I think that a large part of the phenom has to do with name recognition. If club owners don't instantly recognize your band's name, they tend to have visions of empty seats on a Saturday night, and talent is one of the last things they are concerned about. It truly (and sadly), is a popularity contest.
That's a tough nut to crack, for sure. I wish I had a solution, or even some fresh and effective insight into the problem, but it's been there as long as I've been associated with live music.
Here are some (obvious) things that can help...
- Play as often as you can, regardless of the pay.
- Try to get your name out there via other mediums, such as The Backyard Rocker, PA Musician ads, etc.
- At shows you do play, try and do something out of the norm that will make an impression on the audience. Giveaways, contests, etc.
- Don't forget that club owners will usually judge your band on your popularity, not your talent.
Wish I had more for you, but it is a tough problem.
Good luck.
I think that a large part of the phenom has to do with name recognition. If club owners don't instantly recognize your band's name, they tend to have visions of empty seats on a Saturday night, and talent is one of the last things they are concerned about. It truly (and sadly), is a popularity contest.
That's a tough nut to crack, for sure. I wish I had a solution, or even some fresh and effective insight into the problem, but it's been there as long as I've been associated with live music.
Here are some (obvious) things that can help...
- Play as often as you can, regardless of the pay.
- Try to get your name out there via other mediums, such as The Backyard Rocker, PA Musician ads, etc.
- At shows you do play, try and do something out of the norm that will make an impression on the audience. Giveaways, contests, etc.
- Don't forget that club owners will usually judge your band on your popularity, not your talent.
Wish I had more for you, but it is a tough problem.
Good luck.
... and then the wheel fell off.
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Chevelle7982
- Gold Member
- Posts: 142
- Joined: Thursday Apr 10, 2003
- Location: Mifflintown
Hey Skate Toad, one thing I didn't think of. Participate in benefits. Peter C's is known for holding benefits. Other bands see what kind of talent you have, therefore, you may get some opening acts with them, and other bar owner's are gonna be in attendance as well, which means that your chance t impress them is right then and there. Peter C's is holding a benefit April 24th. go to the benefit forum and sign up. I'll be there.
Actions speak louder than words!!
Opening for other bands is where I've had the most success. Make sure you talk to the manager THAT NIGHT about the possibility of your own gig at their bar. That way they are more likely to remember you when you follow up with a phone call. Almost every bar I've booked has been because we opened there first. And it helps to have a press kit with you to give them on the night you open there. alot of bars don't even look at them if they haven't heard your name, so if you give it to them that night they are more likely to take a look at it. I've given bars a press kit a few days before we've opened somewhere only to have them not even remember I gave them one just a few days ago. If they have your info handy when they see you play they may remember to keep it handy if they decide they'd like to contact you later. otherwise the press kit may go right from your hands to his/her garbage can without even a glance.
Also, the waitresses/bartenders at clubs are a big help at getting a booking. They tend to pay more attention to a band than a manager that may not be in the club the night you open or too busy to pay attention to your set. If the staff likes you, they can sometimes can have a lot of pull on which bands come back and which don't. They also get a good feel for how the customers feel about your band and will many times relay that info to the manager. So get to know the staff and give good tips!!! Good luck!
Also, the waitresses/bartenders at clubs are a big help at getting a booking. They tend to pay more attention to a band than a manager that may not be in the club the night you open or too busy to pay attention to your set. If the staff likes you, they can sometimes can have a lot of pull on which bands come back and which don't. They also get a good feel for how the customers feel about your band and will many times relay that info to the manager. So get to know the staff and give good tips!!! Good luck!
I know that in the Altoona area, part of the problem is that a couple of the big rooms book almost totally through agencies, leaving few if any openings for deserving local bands to get their foot in the door.
I would suggest that in addition to the tips already offered, be patient, polite and persistent. Keep checking back with the rooms on a regular basis and politely inquire about openings, and even offer to open for established bands in those venues so you can play in front of the club owner or whoever does the booking. And you never know, you might luck out and be the first band the club owner speaks with after a scheduled band cancels out of a gig five minutes earlier!
Continue to nurture the situations that already work for you. Keep playing the rooms where you are already doing well, and keep working to expand your fan base at those rooms. DILIGENTLY PROMOTE and get your name out there, and keep working to improve your visibility. Get an email list going so you can inform fans of your upcoming shows. Schedule cards on the tables work, too.
And don't give up! It may get frustrating, but over time, your band will develop more name recognition as you keep at it, and your fan base should continue to expand, even if only a fan or two per gig. As you become more and more established and can draw better and better attendance, it will become more difficult for bigger venues not to pay attention.
One good local example of how persistence pays off is Flight 19. It took a while for Flight 19 to get to where they currently are; I remember the early days when they were playing to four walls at places like Aldo's and the Ferris Wheel. But they continued to nurture the places where they were doing well, like Glenn's Place and the Bullpen, and continued to knock on doors. Eventually they were able to get their foot in the door at the 4D's, their fan base followed them there, and they now play there fairly regularly - including pulling a good-sized crowd there last Friday night with Negative Space opening!
It can take a while to build it, but if you stick with it and keep working at developing your fan base and visibility, you'll eventually turn the corner and start to see some bigger success. But it takes time and patience.
I would suggest that in addition to the tips already offered, be patient, polite and persistent. Keep checking back with the rooms on a regular basis and politely inquire about openings, and even offer to open for established bands in those venues so you can play in front of the club owner or whoever does the booking. And you never know, you might luck out and be the first band the club owner speaks with after a scheduled band cancels out of a gig five minutes earlier!
Continue to nurture the situations that already work for you. Keep playing the rooms where you are already doing well, and keep working to expand your fan base at those rooms. DILIGENTLY PROMOTE and get your name out there, and keep working to improve your visibility. Get an email list going so you can inform fans of your upcoming shows. Schedule cards on the tables work, too.
And don't give up! It may get frustrating, but over time, your band will develop more name recognition as you keep at it, and your fan base should continue to expand, even if only a fan or two per gig. As you become more and more established and can draw better and better attendance, it will become more difficult for bigger venues not to pay attention.
One good local example of how persistence pays off is Flight 19. It took a while for Flight 19 to get to where they currently are; I remember the early days when they were playing to four walls at places like Aldo's and the Ferris Wheel. But they continued to nurture the places where they were doing well, like Glenn's Place and the Bullpen, and continued to knock on doors. Eventually they were able to get their foot in the door at the 4D's, their fan base followed them there, and they now play there fairly regularly - including pulling a good-sized crowd there last Friday night with Negative Space opening!
It can take a while to build it, but if you stick with it and keep working at developing your fan base and visibility, you'll eventually turn the corner and start to see some bigger success. But it takes time and patience.
Skate, I too felt your pain. Back in the day, Ask a Stranger floundered in the self booking ocean. I can't speak for all agents, but we hooked up with a guy named Rod Shaffer. He was very cool. We were at first uneasy with giving up ten percent to someone to get us work. He asked us what price we wanted, what rooms we wanted to play and how often we wanted to play. With in 3 or 4 months, we were booked 4 nights a week for better ching than we ever got ourselves. That ten percent was nothing compared to the good gigs and loosing the hassle of trying to get bar owners to even come to the phone let alone open the booking calendar. Ask around, bands will tell who the weesels are and who is doing good work. Good luck man.
I would say an agent may be your ticket, I worked with one from the monroeville area in the early 90's he promised 4-5 nights a week and delivered it to us. We made better money than we had before and didn't have to make any phone calls. Maybe talk to one and consider it, I believe a new one is developing in the Johnstown area called Stickboy entertainment ? ( hope I'm right , sorry if not ) ( its in the services forum )
It can all get frustrating so maybe don't push you goals to fast, In the past I've found myself getting frustrated to the point where I couldn't enjoy what I was doing because I wanted more.So maybe you need to enjoy the nights and clubs you are playing and let it come together in time. Personally the band I'm working on will only be looking to play 2-4 times a month and I see from your site that you are doing that already.
Other than that I would say just put your time into your tunes and your show and enjoy it.
It can all get frustrating so maybe don't push you goals to fast, In the past I've found myself getting frustrated to the point where I couldn't enjoy what I was doing because I wanted more.So maybe you need to enjoy the nights and clubs you are playing and let it come together in time. Personally the band I'm working on will only be looking to play 2-4 times a month and I see from your site that you are doing that already.
Other than that I would say just put your time into your tunes and your show and enjoy it.
Being a pest may not necessarily be a bad thing. Make sure you're not calling during busy times, though... absolutely do not call on Friday or Saturday night, during happy's if the club has them, or special nights like St. Pat's Day... this will practically guarantee you start off on the wrong foot (speaking from experience here...).
When you talk to the manager or talent booker/buyer, be confident. It's a sales call at that time, pure and simple, in fact, if you have someone in or associated with the band who has sales training, work with them. Bands are small businesses, and you need to utilize every asset you have available. Show them how professional your band is by pointing to the pro-level promo pack, stress that you're all responsible adults whose job it is to entertain and sell drinks. There's another point we stress here. A clubowner hires you to sell drinks... never forget that. That's what he/she wants your band to do, above anything else. Of course you have to work your art in there, but that's not his main priority, he needs you to sell drinks because that's what he does for a living. Big John from Peter C's is the perfect example of a clubowner "getting" what bands want to do, he gives lots of developing bands a chance, and dealing with him will give you an idea as to what clubs want and need. He's a good guy to know even if you don't play his club.
I think in a booking situation, you should always consider the relationship between you and the club as that of a contractor/subcontractor business relationship. Don't get me wrong, you will absolutely make friends with most of these folks too, but straying from your business relationship may hurt both of you.
Another hint: Suck up to the doorman, the bouncer and the waitstaff. These people are "in the trenches" and while they may not have the power to book you, they generally know the club and it's patrons, and what works/doesn't work. The doorman knows who's here, the bouncer knows what problems may occur, and the waitstaff knows how much alcohol you're selling. If you sell lots of drinks, you will no longer need to actively court that club... you will be asked back. I used to play in a country band when line-dancing was popular... but line-dancers usually drank water or pop, which doesn't have the mark-up that alcohol does, and clubs had big crowds, but low profits... line-dancing died as quick as it came. Gotta sell those drinks!
So far, it seems like you're heading the right direction. Just keep on keepin' on... it's worth it.----->JMS
When you talk to the manager or talent booker/buyer, be confident. It's a sales call at that time, pure and simple, in fact, if you have someone in or associated with the band who has sales training, work with them. Bands are small businesses, and you need to utilize every asset you have available. Show them how professional your band is by pointing to the pro-level promo pack, stress that you're all responsible adults whose job it is to entertain and sell drinks. There's another point we stress here. A clubowner hires you to sell drinks... never forget that. That's what he/she wants your band to do, above anything else. Of course you have to work your art in there, but that's not his main priority, he needs you to sell drinks because that's what he does for a living. Big John from Peter C's is the perfect example of a clubowner "getting" what bands want to do, he gives lots of developing bands a chance, and dealing with him will give you an idea as to what clubs want and need. He's a good guy to know even if you don't play his club.
I think in a booking situation, you should always consider the relationship between you and the club as that of a contractor/subcontractor business relationship. Don't get me wrong, you will absolutely make friends with most of these folks too, but straying from your business relationship may hurt both of you.
Another hint: Suck up to the doorman, the bouncer and the waitstaff. These people are "in the trenches" and while they may not have the power to book you, they generally know the club and it's patrons, and what works/doesn't work. The doorman knows who's here, the bouncer knows what problems may occur, and the waitstaff knows how much alcohol you're selling. If you sell lots of drinks, you will no longer need to actively court that club... you will be asked back. I used to play in a country band when line-dancing was popular... but line-dancers usually drank water or pop, which doesn't have the mark-up that alcohol does, and clubs had big crowds, but low profits... line-dancing died as quick as it came. Gotta sell those drinks!
So far, it seems like you're heading the right direction. Just keep on keepin' on... it's worth it.----->JMS
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Skate Toad
- Gold Member
- Posts: 320
- Joined: Friday Apr 04, 2003
- Location: Altoona
Thanks
Thanks for all the info and support. Alot of what was said i pretty much have got a handle on, but i did pick up some tips and perspectives too! I wrote this out of frustration and i think i needed to just vent. I am glad to hear that i'm not the only one out there busting his/her ass and having the same difficulty.
This is a bit of a refreshing thread from all the psyco babble and member measuring contests that have been going on latley
. This (the rockpage) is a great tool and i'm glad it's here! Thanks to everyone out there that uses this for what it was meant for.... helping each other out and disscusing topics with the old and the new, trading secrets and tips etc. Building the scene!
Also if there are any bands that would like to work with us doing joint shows contact me. I think that has been working for alot of bands lately. It kind of goes back to the all age show feel of having different acts to keep a fical crowd happy. Just a thought.
Todd
Silver Sunday
This is a bit of a refreshing thread from all the psyco babble and member measuring contests that have been going on latley
. This (the rockpage) is a great tool and i'm glad it's here! Thanks to everyone out there that uses this for what it was meant for.... helping each other out and disscusing topics with the old and the new, trading secrets and tips etc. Building the scene!Also if there are any bands that would like to work with us doing joint shows contact me. I think that has been working for alot of bands lately. It kind of goes back to the all age show feel of having different acts to keep a fical crowd happy. Just a thought.
Todd
Silver Sunday
I didn't do it! It was the other guy! I Swear to God!!
DaveB, it was Steve Elkin from GTA I was with a band called Montage at the time. You mentioned Ask a Stranger? Were you the guitar/ keys or just guitar? In 95 or 96 whenever the guitar player got a good job and needed to leave the group I was friends with the drummer Jason at the time and came up for a couple jams in the rented storefront there in punxy, I played 1/2 a show too at the brookville days Inn kinda getting worked in but I think there were some money / equipment issues and everyone decided to go there seperate ways rather than regroup. I never did get to know anyone too well just a couple jams.
Hey Tonefight!!
I was Dave the guitar player that you were replacing. I remember you playing the second or third set in Brookville. You did a great job on the Collective Soul song "Gel". How is Jason doing? Do you still see him at all? I remember Steve Elkin. He used to book us at the Raynedrop outside of Indiana. He was pretty cool. Not a snake at all. I still have the good job but now I have time to persue music again. You can check out my site www.projecttwelve34.com What are you doing now? Are you in a band? Let me know
I was Dave the guitar player that you were replacing. I remember you playing the second or third set in Brookville. You did a great job on the Collective Soul song "Gel". How is Jason doing? Do you still see him at all? I remember Steve Elkin. He used to book us at the Raynedrop outside of Indiana. He was pretty cool. Not a snake at all. I still have the good job but now I have time to persue music again. You can check out my site www.projecttwelve34.com What are you doing now? Are you in a band? Let me know
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Marsman365
- Active Member
- Posts: 88
- Joined: Thursday Nov 13, 2003
- Location: Raleigh, NC
Hey Dave,
I guess I only met you once but you played a fernandez strat and you only brought one guitar to the show cause it never let you down and you hadn't broken a string in years right? I checked out your website, I have dial up so only one MP3 but it was cool , sounds like a good recording job too. My Dad lives in New Bethlehem so maybe next time I go up I'll look you up for a CD. As far as Jason, I haven't seen him in a couple years I think he got into dirt bike hill climbs and got out of the music scene. I was playing in a barband type thing for awhile and then my wife and I played acoustic gigs for a few years and just now getting a band back together, we are on the band page under Never Enough.
I guess I only met you once but you played a fernandez strat and you only brought one guitar to the show cause it never let you down and you hadn't broken a string in years right? I checked out your website, I have dial up so only one MP3 but it was cool , sounds like a good recording job too. My Dad lives in New Bethlehem so maybe next time I go up I'll look you up for a CD. As far as Jason, I haven't seen him in a couple years I think he got into dirt bike hill climbs and got out of the music scene. I was playing in a barband type thing for awhile and then my wife and I played acoustic gigs for a few years and just now getting a band back together, we are on the band page under Never Enough.
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Mysterytrain
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bassist_25
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