QUESTION FOR ALL

evenaswedrum · Post by **evenaswedrum** » Tuesday Oct 14, 2003

If a bar with a 7000 watt sound system, with a 24 track mixer, would record your live show, how much would you be willing to pay for the master cd?

BDR · Post by **BDR** » Tuesday Oct 14, 2003

Depends if there's a good sub mix...

r:>)

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Tuesday Oct 14, 2003

nothing if it sounds like crap... this may not apply in this case but I know way to many people with pro gear that should simply put their investment back in the box and and count their losses on ebay

Post by **Ron** » Tuesday Oct 14, 2003

I definitely wouldn't pay anything unless I was satisfied with the end product. You wouldn't get a multi-track master that you could fix things or do a re-mix. You would just have a CD set in stone. Without the ability to record all or most of the tracks separately, you may as well just have someone record all of your live stuff with a portable burner and pick the best individual songs.

7000 watts won't help one bit in a recording situation, and it is a bar... probably a lot of ambient noise, neon lights, refrigeration running, etc. + most bars have mics built for endurance (57's, 58's, etc) not good recording mics. Since the mics are the link between the instrument and the board, they make a huge difference.

I think that you would be much better off saving your money and going to a real studio in due time.

Bob Capotosto · Post by **Bob Capotosto** » Tuesday Oct 14, 2003

I agree that the number of channels and the wattage make no difference at all. I would be more concerned that the mic placement is right, especially on the drums. Make sure that the guy knows how to use gates and compression properly. The last thing you want on your CD are the gates acting like on/off switches that you hear in the recording. Also allignment of the main PA to the backline will be especially important in this type of recording. I also would want to know if the FOH guy is planning on using the left and right outputs in addition to some ambient mics for the recording. Using just the left and right outs may not give you a true representation of the show. If there are ambient mics used I would make sure that the outputs from the console are properly delayed to match that of the ambient mics that should be positioned at FOH. If you use ambient mics at FOH, drop the signal between 6 and 12 db relative to the outputs from the console. Try to discuss what I have told you with the FOH guy. If he looks at you like you are from outer space save your money. If he recognizes the importance and can address the issues then consider negotiating a price. I wouldn't have a problem paying somebody that has capability, otherwise, save your money. Just my .02.

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Tuesday Oct 14, 2003

Any recording we ever tried to do running straight from the board into a recorder never worked simply for the fact that you're being mixed from the room, rather than the levels going into the recorder. You will never get a true mix because of stage volumes vs what's coming out of the mains will conflict with the recording. Every other point everyone else made, I totally agree with. To make a long story short, save your money and record it in a more controlled environment. However, if you really want a true live mix, I'd have a seperate board and run individual pre outputs from the main board through the inserts. To do this, you'll be looking at a lot of extra work and time. If you have to start playing by a certain time, then you're going to have a lot more pressure that's not worth it.

evenaswedrum · Post by **evenaswedrum** » Wednesday Oct 15, 2003

What about using a Roland 24 track digital recorder as the mixer.
You then would have al your individual tracks that you could mix down your self using your computer, or just use the mix you got.

Post by **Ron** » Wednesday Oct 15, 2003

If you have a 24 track mixer/recorder, you don't need the PA mixer, so you would be better off just doing the recording at home.
No cost, no schedule, low pressure.

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Wednesday Oct 15, 2003

we have some very talented studio engineers in the area... why not build a bonfire, get a few kegs, maybe hire a stripper (or 2), and record the ulimate live album ? track it at the party, then mix it the next few days while you still have a memory fresh from the bash, as not to lose the edge of it being a "live" recording

Zenphonic Soundwerks and Daylites Studio would be good places to start. DIY is cool too, but there is something about being around a studio that just feels good, and u can meet some cool ppl there as well.

evenaswedrum · Post by **evenaswedrum** » Thursday Oct 16, 2003

I don't have a digital mixer/recorder..But A club I know does, And that's what they use as their mixer, but the don't record on it. They were thinking about recording the bands live shows there and i thought it was an excellent idea. I mean, studios charge a ridiculous amount of money to record. I figure not alot of people have the capabilities of having all their stuff mic'd properly and recorded well. So If given the opportunity to record a live show. It would give them a demo to shop around, for next to nothing. I guess it was a stupid idea. I'll let them know.
thanks for all the info.

Post by **Ron** » Thursday Oct 16, 2003

evenaswe,

It's NOT a bad idea for a club to record the live shows while mixing them. I'm sure you would record some fine performances and mixes over time, and you would have the capability to give the bands a multitrack copy.

It's just a bad idea for a band to pay for that type of situation as though it were a studio setup, because the end mix just wouldn't have the same quality as a decent studio could achieve.

Post by **Jim Price** » Thursday Oct 16, 2003

I don't know if they still use this set-up, but when 105.9 The X in Pittsburgh used to run their local music show a few years ago ("The X Files"), I understand they actually had a recording studio-type set-up in the studio where the guest band for each week would perform. The idea was that the band's performance on the show could be recorded and the band could use the recording for a demo. (I'm not certain if The X used an actual engineer or producer during these shows.) I know a radio studio is quite a different setting than a live stage situation, but the idea of recording a live performance for demo usage isn't a bad one, but the equipment and room situation would have to be good for that purpose, and the band would have one shot at getting their song(s) down the first time; they wouldn't be able to record them over if they screwed up. I imagine for a band just starting out with only a small budget, it might be a viable option if the price was reasonable.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Friday Oct 17, 2003

The club recording situation would likely have to include a remote mixing/monitoring location, like a room in a diiferent part of the building,etc. If you were in the same room, even with cans on your head, you'd have problems with time alignment causing comb filtering, and there'd be so much bass loading with a loud heavy band that, in the room, the low end could be crushing, and the tape could sound like an AM radio. Plus you'd need a stereo mic pair for ambience and audience response. I have lots of board tapes from well-attended shows where at the end of the song, it sounds like 4 people clapping, even though there were 400 there. Makes it sound kinda pathetic.----->JMS

Post by **Ron** » Friday Oct 17, 2003

songsmith wrote:If you were in the same room, even with cans on your head

Like this guy?
<br>

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Friday Oct 17, 2003

Those look like jugs to me.

SUperstar · Post by **SUperstar** » Monday Oct 20, 2003

I agree with Ron above!

If they are already using it as their mixer they shouldn't charge you anything to get a live CD of your set. Bring them the blank disc and burn your live show. How hard is that. Just another club looking to make another dollar off the bands that they already don't pay enough money to play there in the first place

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Saturday Oct 25, 2003

7000 Watts?? 24 channels??? If they are just dumping a house mix to a CD recorder, odds are that vocals and "PA only" instruments will be louder than the instruments that have stage volume (guitars, bass,drums) on the mix. The last time I dumped a digital live mix, I just gave the bands the CD when they were done as a souvenir (sorry JP--didn't know you wanted them for "backyard rocker" until it was too late). They are usually only worth the price of the blank CD, a press of the record button and a big smile.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Saturday Oct 25, 2003

Speaking of bars that literally want to make a buck off the bands. Don't you love it when you find out you have to pay for drinks, so you get one or two before the show for $1.50 and find out after the 1st set that you have to pay $2.00 because now YOU ARE PLAYING!!!!!

Danette · Post by **Danette** » Monday Oct 27, 2003

I dont know about tryin to make a buck off the band - I know from past experiences that the bar staff see so many faces and everyone expects you to remember them. It's gets hard to keep track sometimes of who is who with new bands coming and going and member changes in exsisting ones. The bar staff in some places don't come in til after set up and sound check and sometimes don't even get to see who is in the band til the end of the night. Everyone gets doing what they need to do that sometimes people don't always get introduced. Sure - the person in charge might know who you are - but thats not a guarantee that the next person serving you will. Maybe a "Hi, how ya doing Im ______ from ____ " before you go on stage will help ya out a lil in that dept in the future.. can't hurt to try.

Mark Rickabaugh · Post by **Mark Rickabaugh** » Monday Oct 27, 2003

It's easier to keep a 12 pack in a cooler behind the drummer

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Oct 27, 2003

Danette...the barmaid is MY SISTER'S BEST FRIEND and also one of mine....she was just doing what her boss told her to do.

It was worth the fifty cents to laugh at how cheap the owner's son is...

I asked her if that was REAL TOMATO catsup on their hotdogs and if they had a can where they were saving all their bottle caps and can tabs...

byndrsn · Post by **byndrsn** » Monday Oct 27, 2003

Where have I heard this scenario before?

Jake: Bob, about our money for tonight.
Bob: That's right. Uh 200 dollars, and you boys drank 300 dollars worth of beer.
Elwood: Uh well like, when we first come in the bar lady never charged us for the first round so like we figured you know beer was like complimentary for the band, you know.

To make matters worse you get the old "hey thanks... you guys are great...everyone had such a good time.... I'll call you in a week or so when the money we promised ya gets here, thanks for spending what you had on ya at the bar. We gotta close up now so get your shit and get out!" This of course happens after you played an additonal 30 minutes at the end of the night because everyone wanted to hear "one" more!!

Oh well..... good thing we're all just in it for the love of music!!

Dan

Chevelle7982 · Post by **Chevelle7982** » Monday Nov 03, 2003

I agree, it shouldn't happen the way it usually does. If I owned a bar or was in charge of the entertainment, I would want to present myself to the band before the show, introduce them to the barmaids. Let's see that would take a whole 10 minutes. If it is a bad night and attendance is down for the weekend then I can see making a band pay for drinks because they are dishing out the money to pay you to play and receive nothing through the door and nobody is there to buy drinks, but at least give a discount. And... if the house is packed or at least close to 100 people, the band should never pay for beer, they will make enough money by the end of the night.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Tuesday Nov 04, 2003

It depends on the band, I think. When I booked, I learned that free beer for some guys is NOT a good thing, and turned the show into "The A**holes With Microphones Show." Getting too wasted is my all-time fastest pisser-offer.--->JMS

Chevelle7982 · Post by **Chevelle7982** » Friday Nov 07, 2003

I agree, but I know with my band, we are all mature enough and care way too much about the entertainment factor. OUR audience comes first and we would never want to drink too much and displease them or the person who booked us. Who do you book for, give my band a shot?

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