Not useless for musicians part II (spinoff thread)

[MeYatch]

I was thinking about the Theory discussion in the singer's prejudice thread, and I thought now might be a good time to discuss some music theory and hopefully everyone will learn something.

I have a question about modes.

I understand keys, and I understand intervals in keys, and I understand that different modes, are the same as the original key, but starting off in different places.

IE C major scale is C,D,E,F,G,A,B,c (I'm sure there's a name for this mode, I don't know it)

and a mode, which I don't know the name of would be D,E,F,G,A,B,C,d

and the relative minor mode (I'm pretty sure the name of the mode starts with an A) is
A,B,C,D,E,F,G,a

I don't know the names of the modes (well, I know a couple, but I don't know what they mean), and I don't really know how they apply to something that I would find usefull.

So does anyone have any pointers about what I should do with this modal information? Relating it to a bass part would be helpful to me, but I'm sure it has applications for solos, or riffs that guitar players would find usefull as well.

by the way, here is the original "not useless" thread from a long long time ago
Not a waste of time for guitarists, unlike most other posts.

[MeYatch]

ok, I'm making my own attempt at this using bits and pieces from the other thread that I am now re-reading.

Lets say I write a song in d minor. Which is D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C, D

Now lets say I write a bridge/solo part, and I decide to play the chords
A, and C (for no particular reason)

the A is the 5th degree of the scale, and according to paul's post is Mixolyodian mode. which would be A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G, A

and C, is the 7th degree of the scale and is Locrian mode according to paul, which would be C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C



Now according to what eric wrote the pentatonic scale should be the I, III, IV, V, VII, and the octave


So if I wanted to perform some pentatonic wankery around the bridge, I should play from something from
A, C, D, E, G, A over the A chord
and
C, E, F, G, Bb, C over the C chord

as opposed to playing

D, F, G, A, C, D over the whole thing which is the D minor pentatonic scale.


Is this right?

[Gallowglass]

Firstly, the mode you referenced beginning on "C" is termed Ionian.
The same set of notes beginning on "D" is termed Dorian.
The relative minor, beginning on "A" is termed Aeolian.

Since all these modes share the same key signature, the actual set of notes involved is relative. What is more important is to analyxe the way in which the intervallic relationship of the notes changes relative to which note is now seen as a new root.

I would suggest a good place to start is by going through each mode as if it were an entity unto and by, itself (which it rightly is). Note that each mode now has a new intervallic series that differs from the parent Ionian scale:

Ionian: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,
Dorian: 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7
Phrygian: 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Lydian: 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7
Mixolydian: 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Aeolian:1,2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Locrian: 1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7

Next, work through the chordial construction of each interval (at least up to the 7th) for each mode (you will quickly see patterns emerge and it won't be nearly as tedious as it seems). You will now have a template for understanding the chordial construction of any piece of music based upon these modes (there are other modes based upon other parent scales, but they essentially function the same way). You will be able to tailor your bass lines in a way that succintly outlines the harmonic content of the chords and understand the way in which those chords are intervallically related to the other chords in the piece.

Of course, this is just a beginning, but I think it's a good place to get off the ground and start running in a way that would be fundamentally important as relates to the bass line of a song.

[metalchurch]

I'm taking lessons now, but I'm only being shown licks, and shredding tips, and tricks.

Tom is helpful, but alot of it is over my head, and I'd rather know more theory and why I'm playing certain things and where they fit or don't fit.

I wanted to start off from the beginning and go from there.
I'm still gonna stay with Tom Brown, because he's showing me the style I want to play.
I would like to get another teacher to show me those things as well.

Can anyone recommend a teacher in the Altoona area that is good with theory?

Here's a site I found that is somewhat helpful:
http://www.theshredzone.com/content/art ... tegoryid=6

[MeYatch]

Ionian: 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,
Dorian: 1,2,b3,4,5,6,b7
Phrygian: 1,b2,b3,4,5,b6,b7
Lydian: 1,2,3,#4,5,6,7
Mixolydian: 1,2,3,4,5,6,b7
Locrian: 1,b2,b3,4,b5,b6,b7

you lost me here, sorry.

[Banned]

Lets say I write a song in d minor. Which is D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C, D

Now lets say I write a bridge/solo part, and I decide to play the chords
A, and C (for no particular reason)

the A is the 5th degree of the scale, and according to paul's post is Mixolyodian mode. which would be A, Bb, C, D, E, F, G, A

and C, is the 7th degree of the scale and is Locrian mode according to paul, which would be C, D, E, F, G, A, Bb, C

When counting modes (for example, 5th degree is Mixolydian), that's assuming that you are starting with the base major scale (Ionian in mode-speak). Since your song is in a minor key, you have to adjust a bit.

D minor/Aeolian is the same as F major/Ionian, so you can work up from the F. A is the 3rd degree from F, so that gives you A Phrygian. Then C is the 5th degree, and that's your Mixolydian.

(I hope that's right. )

[Gallowglass]

you lost me here, sorry.

OK, this will be hard to say w/o getting too verbose. Each interval in a scale is named relative to what the corresponding interval is in the major scale (Ionian mode). Think of this in terms of half steps and whole steps. For example, the third of the major scale is two whole steps away from the root. In Dorian mode, the third note of the scale is only one and a half steps away from the root (thus endind up a half step lower than the third of the major scale). We call this a b3 (flat third) to differentiate it from a third that is two full steps away from the root (major third). The list of modes and their intervallic construction I gave (now edited to include Aeolian-duh!) shows what the new modes' intervals are as compared to the major scale. It sounds insane to begin with, I know, but begins to make sense quickly if you just think about it a bit and it helps to have an instrument handy to help visualize what you are thinking about.

[MeYatch]

crap, I know that, just being dumb.

Change all the crap in my example to what jimi hatt said, is it right then? Using the modes to change the pentatonic scale?

The main thing I don't understand about modes, is if the notes don't change, what am I doing differently? besides starting a riff on a different note.

[MeYatch]

you lost me here, sorry.

OK, this will be hard to say w/o getting too verbose. Each interval in a scale is named relative to what the corresponding interval is in the major scale (Ionian mode). Think of this in terms of half steps and whole steps. For example, the third of the major scale is two whole steps away from the root. In Dorian mode, the third note of the scale is only one and a half steps away from the root (thus endind up a half step lower than the third of the major scale). We call this a b3 (flat third) to differentiate it from a third that is two full steps away from the root (major third). The list of modes and their intervallic construction I gave (now edited to include Aeolian-duh!) shows what the new modes' intervals are as compared to the major scale. It sounds insane to begin with, I know, but begins to make sense quickly if you just think about it a bit and it helps to have an instrument handy to help visualize what you are thinking about.

Thanks, I suspected thats what you meant, but when I tried to work it out on my own I started to get lost, as I have no instrument here, I figured it would be easier to just ask.


I start to get lost in the "why?" part of the modal construction. I usually know what key the song I'm playing is in, and I just kind of visualize the notes from that scale, and don't (usually) play notes outside of the scale. I suppose I'm probably using some modal playing, and not really realizing it.

[MeYatch]

Next, work through the chordial construction of each interval (at least up to the 7th) for each mode (you will quickly see patterns emerge and it won't be nearly as tedious as it seems). You will now have a template for understanding the chordial construction of any piece of music based upon these modes (there are other modes based upon other parent scales, but they essentially function the same way). You will be able to tailor your bass lines in a way that succintly outlines the harmonic content of the chords and understand the way in which those chords are intervallically related to the other chords in the piece.

Ok, lets work on this part now. I don't really understand chords very much. I've never played any other instrument besides bass, and drums.

[bassist_25]

When counting modes (for example, 5th degree is Mixolydian), that's assuming that you are starting with the base major scale (Ionian in mode-speak). Since your song is in a minor key, you have to adjust a bit.

...and another thing to consider is if an entire song is diatonic. A lot of popular music isn't exactly diatonic and has a tendency to deviate from the original key center. A lot of blues and music based around the blues has a tendnecy to favor the mixolydian scale. If Mitch were to try and play a standard 12-bar, and play the I chord using ionian, the IV with lydian, and the V with mixolydian, it's not going to sound very good. Many chords in blues are treated as if they're V7 chords - which of course would be based more on the mixolydian mode. In my experience, if a song isn't fully diatonic, you can usually break down the chord progression, understand why certain chords are resolving to one another, and then figure out the melodic direction of the piece.

Of course, a lot of Western music relies heavy on chromatic "blue" notes between the 4th and 5th degress, and sometimes the b7 and 8th degreess. But that's a whole 'nother discussion.

[Gallowglass]

[

Ok, lets work on this part now. I don't really understand chords very much. I've never played any other instrument besides bass, and drums.

To build a chord you are essentially stacking intervallic distances of a third from the root of a parent scale and playing all the notes together. Since by definition a chord contains at least 3 notes, we must do this twice to get a "chord". What this ends up being in practical terms means that for a simple triad we play the 1st, 3rd, and 5th together (or 1st, b3rd, 5th for a parent scale that is minor, or 1st, b3rd, b5th if we were working w/ Locrian etc.).

You can keep stacking intervals of a third on top of each othe to create more complex chords, so if you stack another interval on top of a basic triad you create a 7th chord (of whatever type the intervals included dictate). You can keep doing this until you create a 13th chord, at which point you can't include any more intervals that haven't been previously included.

Start w/ C Ionian. Add a third (ends up being every other note). You now have C+E. Not a chord yet, Add another 3rd. Now we have C+E+G (or the 1st, 3rd, & 5th). You now have a Cmajor chord. Every voicing of a Cmajor chord, no matter where we play it is ultimately composed of C's,E's,& G's. Now add another interval of a third. We now have C+E+G+B, a Cmaj7th chord. Add another third, we now have C+E+G+B+D (you have to go above the first octave), which is a C(maj)9th chord. Does this make sense?
(

[MeYatch]

Yes, that makes lots of sense, thank you.

How do you suppose you would relate a bass line to this?

[MeYatch]

1st, 3rd, and 5th together (or 1st, b3rd, 5th for a parent scale that is minor, or 1st, b3rd, b5th if we were working w/ Locrian etc.)

are there chords that are using the even numbered intervals in a scale? I suppose that would end up being the same thing but in a different mode wouldn't it?

[bassist_25]

Ok, lets work on this part now. I don't really understand chords very much. I've never played any other instrument besides bass, and drums.

Okay, diatonically speaking - Each chord would be based around a corresponding mode. For example, if you were in the key of C, the types of C you could build would be based upon the available chords that fall in the ionian mode.

You could play a simple C triad - C, E, G
You could play a C major 7th - C, E, G, B
You could play a C major 9th - C, E, G, B, D

Okay, let's say that you're following a chart and the song is diatonic. The next chord you hit is an E. E would be based around phyrigian, which contians a minor (or flatted) 3rd.

You could play a simple E minor triad - E, C, B
You could play an E minor 7th - E, G, B, D
You could play an E minor b9 - E, G, B, D, F

Oftentimes, players will choose chord voicings that compliment the arrangement, that resolve into each other well (pianist generally spend a lot of time learning to invert chords), and that explimlify the intervals they are trying to highlight. This is especially important on bass. You don't want a chord voicing that sounds muddy. Often times, the 5th is thrown out when playing a chord* on bass. The only harmonic information that a 5th gives is that the chord is perfect, rather than augmented or diminished. In theoritical terms, a "power chord" is not a chord at all, because it doesn't contain a 3rd, which is what determines if a chord's major or minor. Rather, "power chords" are diads.

For example, if I were to play an E7 (flatted 7ths are called dominate 7ths) on the bass, it would look something like this:

G---13---
D---12---
A---------
E---12---

I play the root on the E. I don't play the 5th, because it will muddy up the chord. I play the b7 on the D, and I play the 3rd on top on the G.

*When I say "chord," in this instance, I'm referring to notes played at the same time. Obviously, bass players play a lot of arpeggios, which are technically still chords.

[MeYatch]

Paul, where do you get the G#? Or is your second example unrelated to your first?

[bassist_25]

1st, 3rd, and 5th together (or 1st, b3rd, 5th for a parent scale that is minor, or 1st, b3rd, b5th if we were working w/ Locrian etc.)

are there chords that are using the even numbered intervals in a scale? I suppose that would end up being the same thing but in a different mode wouldn't it?

Though they seem to be rather uncommon, there are 6th chords (e.g., C, E, G, A).

Also, a very popular chord is the sus4. The 3rd is raised to a 4th. They have a natural tendency to resolve to perfect triads. Though are also sus2 chords, which are less common.

For example, play this on the bass:

G---12---
D---12---
A---12---
E---------

Then play this:

G---11---
D---12---
A---12---
E----------

That's Dsus4 resolving into a D major.

[bassist_25]

Paul, where do you get the G#? Or is your second example unrelated to your first?

Oops, should have mentioned that - yes, the second example is unreleated to the first.

If you were to play a diatonic G7 releated to C, then just move everything up by 3 frets.

[Gallowglass]

Paul, where do you get the G#? Or is your second example unrelated to your first?

If I may answer, the G# is from another (unrelated example). I would also like to add that in the Em example the C's listed should be G's (damn typing).
Also, this stuff works for non diatonic stuff, you just have to know how to relate it.

[bassist_25]

I would also like to add that in the Em example the C's listed should be G's (damn typing).

LOL Thanks for catching that. I only have a half hour left of work, so my mind's already on the weekend.

[Gallowglass]

I think Paul would be much better at communicating how this is relevant to a bass line, but knowing the chordial construction of what you are playing over (highlighting) is what is at the essence of it. I must sign off now gents, I will check back when I can and contribute what I can. This is a great thread.

[MeYatch]

ok, so I think I thought of an actual example. We wrote a song with End of the Sun in which I was playing arpegios. I don't exactly remember what I was playing now, but it was in Dm and I started it out with something like D, F, A, some other note (sorry)
which is I, III, V, something
and then I changed it over a different chord. So I suppose there was a good chance I was playing modal intervals based on the chords, and didn't really realize it.

By the way people who aren't teaching me things, this is how music theory helps you in song writing, and doesn't turn you into a robot.

Rather than sit there for 10 minutes figuring out the notes to use (which I did) I could have pretty much just played them based on knowledge of what I was going for and how I knew those things would sound.

[bassist_25]

Rather than sit there for 10 minutes figuring out the notes to use (which I did) I could have pretty much just played them based on knowledge of what I was going for and how I knew those things would sound.

Right, but remember: It should still ultimately be your ears that help you decide what notes are the best fit. As I said earlier, not all songs are diatonic and usually the best thing to do is to go with what sounds right. Also, sometimes changing up one or two notes in the scale or key center that you're working with can be what helps make the song sound more original and exciting.

[MeYatch]

Rather than sit there for 10 minutes figuring out the notes to use (which I did) I could have pretty much just played them based on knowledge of what I was going for and how I knew those things would sound.

Right, but remember: It should still ultimately be your ears that help you decide what notes are the best fit. As I said earlier, not all songs are diatonic and usually the best thing to do is to go with what sounds right. Also, sometimes changing up one or two notes in the scale or key center that you're working with can be what helps make the song sound more original and exciting.

Of course, and I suppose this is where the "robot" comments stem from. But if you can use knowledge of music theory to get you 90% there, and then use your ears to tweak what your head has already come up with, you can save a lot of time.

[MeYatch]

by the way guys, I've got a lot to chew on in this thread already. Are there any other topics anyone wants to discuss?