Wireless In Ear Monitors

[lonewolf]

I've been looking at the Shure PSM600 wireless IEM system to replace traditional floor monitors in a small stage-run, primarily vocal PA. In small rooms, I probably wouldn't mic the guitar and bass. I'm wondering if this kind of monitor system works well to monitor vocals with stage volume from the instruments using non-isolating ear buds.

Anybody tried this?

By the same token, would the non-isolating ear buds cause problems with a fully mic'd system with complete monitor mixes?

Has anybody seen the new Galaxy AS1000 system (from HotSpot fame)?

The specs are as good as Shures costing 4x, but I haven't heard them.

[LHSL]

Lonewolf,

what is the reasoning for going with non-iso? I can't say for sure that it will/won't work. However, most foam sealing earplugs can offer upto 30 dB of noise suppression. However, that's usually at a given frequency range. A more realistic number is like 10-15 dB. That said, a pair of in-ear headphones with foam inserts will probably offer less protection/isolation.

So, depending on stage volume the non-iso headphones might work...

As for how they'd interact/cause problems with a fully mic'd system... don't see it happening. No way an iem can get loud enough to cause feedback. (If that's what you were getting at.)

I don't have first hand experience with the Galaxy, but I'm gonna bet that it doesn't even compare to the Shure systems.

I use the Shure E2c in-ears and I love them for casual use. Isolation is very good, and they sound fantastic for a $99 pair of ear buds.

[lonewolf]

Since the instruments wouldn't be mic'd in a small room, they won't be in the monitor mix. I want to be sure to hear the stage volume of the instruments while performing. Isolating earbuds might block too much of the stage volume for this to happen. I guess my question is; Do isolating earbuds block outside sound so effectively that you can barely hear the stage volume?

On the other side of the coin:

I'm not worried about feedback at all. With all the instruments mic'd and in the monitor mix, my concern is that non-isolating earbuds might let in too much stage volume and blow away the monitor mix. I suppose lower levels in the mix would compensate for that, as long as there's some headroom above the stage volume.

It would suck to spend all that money and find out that it doesn't suit my needs.

[LHSL]

Gotcha now...

Here's a suggestion. Next time you are practicing with the band, get a cheap pair of those earbud headphones like that come with the iPod. Play some music through them while band plays and see if you can make it out.

That's about all I could think of to see if you will have enough headroom.

My guess is, that if the other musicians just go balls to the wall with volume, you will have a hard time hearing the headphones. I've found it hard to hear over cranked marshalls with cans on out front mixing. It's rare, but it does happen. And that was just stage volume.

However, like you said the mix can compensate some with isolating ear buds. If you think about it, you can still hear the stage volume even with a pair of earplugs in. So If you have the ear buds in even without everything in the mix, you can just lower the overall volume to match the thing you can't hear that is on stage.

Most iem rigs get everything in the mix, 'cept bottom. Usually everything will get crossed over below 150 or so and send it to a side fill with proper subs. That will give you the "feel." Others will run a full range side fill and send 20-20k to the side fill, but only 150 or 200 on up to the IEMs.

Still others are just comfortable getting a vox mix in the IEM. I think you will find it a paradigm change in how you monitor yourself. You will need to put some time in with it to find a sweet spot I'd imagine.

However, my vote would be to get a sealing pair of headphones. But, that's the cheapest part of it and it's modular. If you buy non-iso and don't like it you aren't stuck with them. You can just get another pair that are isolating and just plug 'em in and go.

[DATASOUND]

I think LHSL is giving some great advice. My opinion, Go with the isolated earbuds. You should still be able to hear everything on stage, just at a lower level. And if there is anything you can't hear, then it probably needed mic'ed anyway. The embient earbuds are not good for loud stage volumes. If to much stage volume reaches your ears, you will have to turn the buds up extremely loud. I guess what I'm saying is- isolated earbuds will work in pretty much every situation. Embient earbuds will only work with moderate embient(stage) volumes. Been there, done that.

I strongly recommend the Shure PSM series. This is definately one of those situations where "you get what you pay for". Look at it this way. The best Shure PSM unit still cost less then a quality monitor speaker, eq, amp.

Oh, another option is to only use one (isolated)bud. Let the other hang. One ear hears embient stage. The other ear only hears what you want in the mix. Your brain doesn't need the earbud cranked to match the stage volume either. Your brain processes each ear seperately. you may need to concentrate to block out or ignor your open ear if the stage volume is extremely higher then your earbud.

Hope this helps and doesn't fall on deaf ears...

[lonewolf]

I picked up a Galaxy AS1000 system for under $400. The wireless signal transmission is excellent! With the 100mW transmitter and true-diversity receivers, dropouts are not a problem and this aspect is as good or better than anything Shure makes up to and including the PSM700.

The earbuds are OK (much better than Nady) but aren't quite as good as the ones that come with the Shure systems. I might just spring for a set of E2s or E3s.

I've tried the system at rehearsal, but as I feared, I'm having trouble hearing the "stage volume" guitar and bass over the drums and vocals. This could be a directional problem in a small practice room, but it looks as though I'd have to run guitar and bass thru the monitor mix whether they need reinforced or not. I don't think I could handle playing a solo thru earbuds!

The jury is still out.....

[P MAC]

I too have been considering IEM options. I play a good bit in the solo / duo realm with acoustic instruments. Lonewolf, you said you did not think you could use te IEM for a solo gig. What problems would you anticipate?

[lonewolf]

I too have been considering IEM options. I play a good bit in the solo / duo realm with acoustic instruments. Lonewolf, you said you did not think you could use te IEM for a solo gig. What problems would you anticipate?

I meant a guitar solo. I like playing electric guitar thru guitar speakers and cannot stand the awful honking sound that PA horns add to guitar tones. I can only imagine hearing my solos thru earbuds for 3 hrs.

As far as the solo show, this Galaxy system works great with my midi solo rig. Everything's all mixed together and I just send it out the "record out" jacks to the stereo-in jacks on the AS1000. I just haven't needed monitoring for the solo rig--I place one of my PA speakers nearby for that--but it was worth testing the Galaxy. I expect that this system would really excel at acoustics and vocals.

The Galaxy is a true stereo system, so with some Y adapters on the earbuds, you can actually manage 2 separate mono mixes with one system if you like. The transmitter also has a headphone out that will drive an additional set of wired stationary earbuds (i.e., for a drummer or other band member who doesn't move around).

Since I am an old dog, I may give up on this new IEM trick in favor of remaining with traditional monitors. In that case, I will have a barely used Galaxy AS1000 system for sale.

[lonewolf]

We've been doing this in-ear thing at practice for about a month and one thing that I suspected (see above) was made perfectly clear:

Unless you have a near-recording quality monitor mix of the whole band, sound-isolating type earphones like the Shure E-series are nearly impossible to work with. Its just too difficult to hear everything.

SOooo, I started checking out the non-isolating earbuds to see what was out there. These are the ones that sit in the little V above your ear lobe, but don't go into your ear-canal. Since most people want the sound-isolating canal type for their Ipods, the quality non-isolating earbuds are a lot, lot cheaper.

The models that kept popping up in reviews were the Sennheiser MX500, the AKG K12P/K14P and the V-Moda Remix M-Class. I bought one MX500 and a two AKG K12P's for under $10 each from a Canadian eBay store that sells OEMs cheap.

They came in today and it looks like this might work out pretty well. I tried them just playing rock and roll guitar at normal volume and monitoring my vocals thru the buds. The AKG's sound excellent thru the wireless receiver and the SX500 (with volume control) works great wired from the headphone jack (this will be wired for the drummer). Best of all, I can hear my guitar again!

If anybody is having trouble doing the IEM thing because you can't hear the instruments right, try a set of AKG K12P earbuds. Sounds great.

[ToonaRockGuy]

I may have to check those AKGs out, Jeff. I tried IEMs once during a one-off subbing gig with a now-defunct local band, and I absolutely hated them. I couldn't feel anything. I mean, we started the first song, and as soon as I hit my snare drum, I had to check to make sure that the snares were on. It felt and sounded dead. I ended up ripping the IEMs out of my ears and just using the FOH from the speakers as my reference point for the night. But these earbuds that your talking about combined with a ButtKicker may be just the thing so I can get rid of the two Yamaha Wedge Monitors currently residing on the Scream drum riser.

[lonewolf]

I may have to check those AKGs out, Jeff. I tried IEMs once during a one-off subbing gig with a now-defunct local band, and I absolutely hated them. I couldn't feel anything. I mean, we started the first song, and as soon as I hit my snare drum, I had to check to make sure that the snares were on. It felt and sounded dead. I ended up ripping the IEMs out of my ears and just using the FOH from the speakers as my reference point for the night. But these earbuds that your talking about combined with a ButtKicker may be just the thing so I can get rid of the two Yamaha Wedge Monitors currently residing on the Scream drum riser.

Hey Kevin. That's kinda the feeling I had with the guitar. If you are talking about using this wired from a headphone jack (if available on stage), you would probably want to go with a set that has an integral volume control like the AKG K14P or the Sennheiser MX-500 (just as good). That way you could control the level without moving or signalling somebody else.

Here's where I got them:

ebay

[lonewolf]

We have decided that IEM is overkill for what we are doing right now.

If you are doing a vocal only monitor mix, the system works really well with inexpensive non-isolating earbuds. I liked the Sennheiser MX400 and MX500 the best. They makes even better ones for a little more green, like the MX51. The AKG K12P earbuds worked well too, but aren't as warm sounding as the Sennheisers.

If you use the isolating canal earbuds, you need a really good monitor mix that includes all the instruments. To work well, this would be more similar to a recording mix than a traditional monitor mix.

In our first three gigs, we haven't needed to mic instruments yet and have gotten good results with one floor monitor

[Merge]

My band uses the Shure PSM 600 Series wireless IEM system, and it's the best investment we ever made. No matter where we play, we mic everything. That way, we can run everything into the ears. It also cuts down on stage volume, you don't have to have the guitar or bass amp on 9 to hear it. They will also make your band a lot tighter. You can hear every little mistake. I highly recommend them to anyone that is in a band..