Hilary 08 ...

[Hawk]

You totally avoided my response to your post. Which was about needed social programs.

Taxation began with George Washington. I believe he was president before 1913. I was pointing out that the founding fathers started taxation.

I'm not sure what the amendment has to do with the discussion you and I were having concerning social projects ?

Clinton is a socialist. I don't think you can seriously argue otherwise. I'll give you one program that will lead us down that path- universal health care.

Health care is becomming too expensive for the middle class. Something needs to be done. What would you do ?

[Hawk]

I would go so far to say that if everything were privatised and unregulated (and therefore you had to pay directly for everything you use) you would have less money in your pocket. The rich and the poor would be further separated. Only the rich would be able to afford such luxuries like toll roads and education and health care.

How stupid was Ben Franklin ? Common, Libraries payed for with taxes so everyone has access to information. Another stupid social economic idea ?

It's about looking at the whole picture (as someone suggested) . Do you want what best for you ? Or do you want whats best for everyone ?

People like Washington And Franklin realized that, what's good for everyone will in the long run, benefit the individual (you).

[Hawk]

If I remember my history correctly, turn pikes were in place in the 1800s. These were privately built roads. A pike is a log which was placed across the road. If you paid the toll, the pike would be turned away to let you through. (Hence the term "turn pike".)

If you couldn't pay the toll (some very high and at the digression of the owner of the road) you didn't travel.

Everything (not just roads) would be like that today without some social programs which benefit the masses.

[mjb]

what is the income needed to be considered middle-class?

just wondering what the govt. considers middle class.

thankyou in advance.

[Sapo]

It's about looking at the whole picture (as someone suggested) . Do you want what best for you ? Or do you want whats best for everyone ?

People like Washington And Franklin realized that, what's good for everyone will in the long run, benefit the individual (you).

Maybe if we took a close look at WHY it has gotten so expensive we would find some interesting things.

So YOU are the arbiter of what's best for everyone?

I don't ever recall reading where they said that. And the road to hell is paved with "good" intentions.

Who is qualified to decide what's "good for everyone?" You are heading down the road to fascism with that line of thinking.

[Hawk]

I also didn't say socialism was good or evil, just that it doesn't work

While it is not perfect, our social programs are good. Every time you drive a car on public roads, walk down a publicly lit side walk. Drink clean public water. (And I can go on.) You are using a socially economic project that you personally benefit from. Thank your lucky stars for that.

I would say they do work and you take them for granted. Or you would have already recognized their contributions to society in general and you in particular.

[Hawk]

It's about looking at the whole picture (as someone suggested) . Do you want what best for you ? Or do you want whats best for everyone ?

People like Washington And Franklin realized that, what's good for everyone will in the long run, benefit the individual (you).

So YOU are the arbiter of what's best for everyone?

Who is qualified to decide what's "good for everyone?"

No I am not qualified to decide anything. That's why we hire a president and congress to debate those issues.

And the first amendment gives you and I the right to debate it, and cast our vote according to our beliefs.

Ben Franklin was adamant about educating the masses. He saw that it would be good for the country. How can you disagree with that ?

[Sapo]

If you recall, I never said I was against all government provided services. There are some services that can't be provided by private companies because they are a shared good and not profitable. That being said, I think all governments (local, state, federal) overtax and waste money.

This topic will never be resolved here but i invite all those with counter views to come out and debate it with me (over set breaks - and in a friendly manner) at the osceola hotel this saturday where my band will be playing. I'll even buy the first round!

Now how is that for capitalism?

[Hawk]

One of the first things I said was "Pure Socialism sucks". I believe you agree with that. That would inherently suggest that too much socialism also sucks. Again you would agree.

Some social programs are good. Do you agree with that ?

If you do :

The debate between us is simply as to where to draw the line. And we will likely agree on many programs and disagree on others. But (I think) our discussion would become clearer.

[Hawk]

If you recall, I never said I was against all government provided services. There are some services that can't be provided by private companies because they are a shared good and not profitable. That being said, I think all governments (local, state, federal) overtax and waste money.

This topic will never be resolved here but i invite all those with counter views to come out and debate it with me (over set breaks - and in a friendly manner) at the osceola hotel this saturday where my band will be playing. I'll even buy the first round!

Now how is that for capitalism?

Government provided services is a form of socialism. The wealth is collected (taxed) and used to provide social economic services for the good of all. That's the point I've been trying to make from the beginning.



I agree we are overtaxed because of government waste. And you (seem) to agree some government services are good. (BTW water and roads would make a fortune if they were privatised.)

AND I would love to share a brew with you ! I don't know if I can make your gig though. Loved the discussion man. I'd be glad to buy you a brew too.

[f.sciarrillo]

I'm voting for Hillary Clinton to be extricated out of the country. I can't stand that women. She will never be elected. Too many people can see right threw her.

[edited for improper grammar]

[Hawk]

I'm voting for Hillary Clinton to be extricated out of the country. I can't stand that women. She will never be elected. To many people can see right through her.

That's enlightening ! Thanks !







Now, exactly what is it you see when you look through her ? I feel a need for all of us (but especially me) to know.

If you can't say.........you don't know.


BTW I fixed what I thought you meant to say.......not trying to put words in your mouth though.

[Hawk]

what is the income needed to be considered middle-class?

just wondering what the govt. considers middle class.

thankyou in advance.

I really don't know and I don't think you'd find a consensus. However It's easy to figure what the top 10% is, or the top 1%. Whose taxes have gone way down since Bush took office, along with his (former) lockstep congress.

[Sapo]

AND I would love to share a brew with you ! I don't know if I can make your gig though. Loved the discussion man. I'd be glad to buy you a brew too.

Thanks Hawk! It was fun. Hope to see you there!

[f.sciarrillo]

I'm voting for Hillary Clinton to be extricated out of the country. I can't stand that women. She will never be elected. To many people can see right through her.

That's enlightening ! Thanks !







Now, exactly what is it you see when you look through her ? I feel a need for all of us (but especially me) to know.

If you can't say.........you don't know.


BTW I fixed what I thought you meant to say.......not trying to put words in your mouth though.

Thanx for the edit. People know how much of a fraud she is. Time for a change, the only change I can see with her is the day she falls off the face of the earth. I know I wouldn't miss her. In fact, I am sure so many more wouldn't miss her either ...

[Banned]

You totally avoided my response to your post. Which was about needed social programs.

Taxation began with George Washington. I believe he was president before 1913. I was pointing out that the founding fathers started taxation.

I'm not sure what the amendment has to do with the discussion you and I were having concerning social projects ?

Clinton is a socialist. I don't think you can seriously argue otherwise. I'll give you one program that will lead us down that path- universal health care.

Health care is becomming too expensive for the middle class. Something needs to be done. What would you do ?

Comrade Hawk, I would get the government out of all health care. Eliminate Medicare, and Medicaid to start. Then pull out all of US spending in any and all foreign countries. This would enable us to eliminate the income tax completely. With all of the extra money that American citizens are able to keep, the economy would explode and unemployment would dissapear. Small businesses would grow overnight, and buying your own health care from a private company would be very affordable for all.

These are not my ideas alone. This is what Ron Paul will do in his first year as President.

[Hawk]

I'm voting for Hillary Clinton to be extricated out of the country. I can't stand that women. She will never be elected. To many people can see right through her.

That's enlightening ! Thanks !







Now, exactly what is it you see when you look through her ? I feel a need for all of us (but especially me) to know.

If you can't say.........you don't know.


BTW I fixed what I thought you meant to say.......not trying to put words in your mouth though.

Thanx for the edit. People know how much of a fraud she is. Time for a change, the only change I can see with her is the day she falls off the face of the earth. I know I wouldn't miss her. In fact, I am sure so many more wouldn't miss her either ...

So..........your answer to the question is................. you.........uh........can't tell me.....................OK.

More enlightenment from the gallery. Totally without substance.

[Baceman Spiff]

Comrade Hawk

[Hawk]

Comrade Hawk

LOL

[RobTheDrummer]

Damn Commies...and we wonder why his last band was called "Red Eye"....hahaha. Anyways, anyone but Hillary, for the sake of the nation. We need a true conservative in there that will cut all the bullshit spending and know how to run a war. You don't win wars by throwing money at them. How many problems have been solved by simply throwing money at them? Usually it causes more fucking problems! Cut spending, cut taxes, let people work and earn money instead of taking it from them.

I say we should dedicate one month out of the year to be "tax free month"...that would stimulate the economy! (tax free for the middle class and working poor that is!)

[Hawk]

Comrade Hawk, I would get the government out of all health care. Eliminate Medicare, and Medicaid to start. Then pull out all of US spending in any and all foreign countries. This would enable us to eliminate the income tax completely. With all of the extra money that American citizens are able to keep, the economy would explode and unemployment would dissapear. Small businesses would grow overnight, and buying your own health care from a private company would be very affordable for all.

These are not my ideas alone. This is what Ron Paul will do in his first year as President.

I'd have to see some numbers to see if this would work.

BUT at least you post with WELCOMED substance !

Comrade I hope your tongue is planted firmly in your cheek

[Hawk]

While I have been defending Hillary, She is too liberal on Social issues for me. (No I didn't say social economic issues).

And when I think of it..so is Rudy !

[ToonaRockGuy]

These are not my ideas alone. This is what Ron Paul will do in his first year as President.

BWAAAAAHAAAHAAAHAAA!!!!

Come on, Joe, get real. Didn't you read my semi-annual political post?
Ron Paul won't do it.
Hillary won't do it.
Obama won't do it.

NOBODY CAN DO IT.

The office of the President has NO POWER. The power is in the House and Senate. God, when will you "political experts" realize that it doesn't matter who the president is, all campaign promises are LIES. The prez can't do jack without the House and Senate. I'm a political retard, and I at least know that much.

It doesn't matter who is in office. The election always comes down to choosing the lesser of two evils. And we're screwed either way.

[Hawk]

I graciously disagree since G W created his own Monarchy. Even when he gets caught breaking that law, he cites Executive privilege.

[Banned]

Kev, Ron Paul will set the Guiness Record of vetoes as pres. He is called Dr. No in Washington because he actually votes no more times than any other congressman ever has. He will wear out many pens vetoing all of the trash that congress tries to pass. He judges every vote by the Constitution, asking himself if the Constitution grants Congress the right to pass this crap they do. 90% or more is not-Constitutional.

No matter what Congress may want, even political idiots know the President has the VETO power to stop them. Now, that can be overcome with a majority vote, but that does not happen that often. GW has only vetoed 3 bills in his term so far. Ron Paul will average that a day.

Lets see what happens when the president will stand in the way of congress throwing our money away by the trillions.

It ought to be worth a try, what else has worked lately???????