PA Speakers

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Monday Mar 15, 2004

I was wondering if anyone might be able to guide me in the right direction as far as what a decent set of speakers would be for our acoustic duo. The two biggest factors are sound and price (I think these two things fall for everyone. heh). Some speakers I've been looking into are Behringer's B1520, Carvin's 1230, and JBL's SF15. Any input? I've heard the Carvin's and dig them, but would like to look around and see what might be a better buy.

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Monday Mar 15, 2004

Now I thought you told me Carvin was Junk? Anyway I like all the Carvin stuff I got, I don't know how big you want to go but the 1584 would give you a nice 3 way system. I have the 1588 's and they definatly bring out some clear highs and mids. If you do go with the Behringer ( wich is definalty good in the price category ) let em know how you like them 'cause I may look into some monitors from them in the future.

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Monday Mar 15, 2004

Carvin is junk for mixing a full band. If you're just mixing two guys acoustic it's not that bad. I've been making calls and found out that I can get a great deal on the JBL's. I found a place that'll let them go out the door for $475. Carvin wants $850 and Behringer wants $360 for the equivalent. As it stands, I'm probably going to go with the name after doing some research. The only bad thing I found out about them is they are being discontinued, which doesn't really bother me. JBL is an awsome company.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Monday Mar 15, 2004

Carvin fro $850 and JBL for $475?? Are you comparing apples to apples? I have a bunch of Carvin stuff that I love. Sure, it isn't the worlds greatest, but I think "junk" is a bit much. I'll agree that if the speakers are comparable, for the price I would go with the JBL for the name.

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Monday Mar 15, 2004

With the experience I've had and seen with Carvin is what I'm basing my evaluation from. The following are the specs for both:

Carvin's 1540
$274.98 (Includes shipping) I priced it wrong with my previous post because the one I was looking at was powered where this one isn't.

Technical Specs

Frequency Response: 65 Hz to 17 kHz ±3 dB
Useable Low Frequency: 50 Hz (-10 dB)
Power Handling: 400w continuous
Recommended Amp: 50 to 600 watts
Sensitivity: 100 dB SPL, 1 Watt @ 1 meter
Coverage Angles: 90° Horizontal, 45° Vertical
Nominal Impedance: 8ý
Horn Driver Protection: Yes
Inputs/Outputs: Two 1/4", two Twist-Lok
Woofer Enclosure Type: Vented Box
Construction: Internally braced
Enclosure Covering: Black Duratuff II™
Dim/Wt: 20"W x 14"D x 26"H, 46 lbs.

JBL SF15
$237.50 (Includes shipping)

System Type: 15" 2-way, sound reinforement speaker
Frequency Range (-10dB): 38Hz - 16kHz
Frequency Responce (±3 dB): 50Hz - 12.5kHz
Sensitivity (1w/1m): 98 dB SPL
Nominal Impedance: 8ý
Power Capacity: 250 watts
Peak Power Capacity: 1000 watts
Maximum SPL: 128dB
Nominal Dispersion: 90° x 50°
Crossover Frequency: 1.6kHz
Dimensions (H x W x D): 27.5 in x 18.1 in x 17 in
Weight: 61lb
High Frequency Driver: JBL 2412, 1" exit compression driver mounted on Progressive Transition Waveguide
Low Frequencey Driver: JBL M115-8A
Input Connectors: Parallel Neutrik Speakon NL4 (x1);1/4" TS pone jack (x1)
Enclosure Construction: 19 mm (3/4 in) MDF (Medium Density Fiberboard); with glued and mechanically fastened joint detail; covered in black carpet.
Grille: 18-guage, powder-coated steel
Mounting & Suspension: 35 mm, cast aluminum pole-mount socket

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tuesday Mar 16, 2004

Given those models and the great price you are getting on the SF15's I would go with the JBL's for sure.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Tuesday Mar 16, 2004

We've also had issues with Carvin tech support... so far it's been difficult the few times it came up... when you say jump, they say"...eventually..."
For the money, I'd choose the JBL's. Also, Behringer doesn't have a good reputation with speakers in general... they're made in China from designs lifted from other manufacturers. Behringer actually does make some decent gear, like processing and such, but it's a per-model-number basis, some pieces do very well, others are literal junk, and customer service is non-existent.------>JMS

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Tuesday Mar 16, 2004

I have dealt with both Carvin tech support (twice) and Behringer support (once). I didn't experience problems with either. I think I was extremely lucky with the Behringer support call. There has been so much talk about poor support that I expected the worst. I was really surprised when the call was completed in about 10 minutes and a free upgrade part was being sent to me. The unit was out of warranty and the upgrade chip did resolve the problem. Lucky me..

The two times I spoke to Carvin support were both fine as well. The one thing I didn't like is that they refuse to sell complete PCB assemblies. I needed a board for one of my DCM2000 amps. I asked for the PCB and they would not sell it to me. They had no problem selling me the 2 10k pots that I needed to fix the problem though. I spent $12.00 on parts and 30 minutes replacing the pots.

In my opinion, it is difficult to match the value you get with Carvin gear. Sure there is better stuff out there. But for many applications (small band / club SR) it is a great deal. I will say that if money were no object (wouldn't that be great), that I would probably buy Midas, EAW and Crown over Carvin and Yamaha.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Tuesday Mar 16, 2004

Oh, for sure the Carvin stuff is an overall good value for the local-level guys, if you treat that stuff right it's very cost-effective. And I really like their guitars and other MI-type stuff. It may be that we've just caught them on bad days, too ( I know how that is...). Given the choice, though, I'd still probably take the JBL's.---->JMS

Post by **Ron** » Tuesday Mar 16, 2004

For an acoustic duo, 15" 2-way speakers from any manufacturer aren't a good choice IMO. Here's some reasons why I don't think they would be a good choice.

- Acoustic setups are usually geared more toward sound quality than volume. 15" two-way speakers as a rule have terrible sound quality. A 15" can't produce frequencies high enough, and a 1" or 2" throat horn doesn't go low enough to get a smooth midrange transistion. They all have the typical "boom-sizzle" sound.

- With no toms, kick drum or bass instruments, there is nothing but subsonic noise below 100Hz. Almost 1 1/2 octaves of speaker capacity that will rarely ever be used, but will affect the midrange quality.

- More weight, higher price.

Something with a 12" or dual 10"s would probably serve your purpose much better.

And don't forget my #1 speaker buying rule.
Don't buy them without listening to them first.

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Tuesday Mar 16, 2004

Actually I think those guys have a bass and congas on hand at some shows thats why I suggested the 1584 with a 15 and an 8, I have the 1588 with dual 15's and 8's and I definatly get alot out of the 8" speakers, It sounds like there's more coming out of them that the 15's.

As far as Carvin gear goes I guess time will tell. Of course I would rather have an expensive JBL set up but I would be playing for the next 5 years to pay for them. I have definatly heard good sounds come from bands / clubs with Carvin gear and that is what I made my decision on.

While we are on the speaker subject, I'm considering some 12" monitors ( have 15's now but have vehicle space issues ) Catch is I need bass guitar through them, what frequency response can I get away with? Also do you think ambient lows from the mains will fill some low end void in the monitors?

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Wednesday Mar 17, 2004

tonefight wrote:Actually I think those guys have a bass and congas on hand at some shows thats why I suggested the 1584 with a 15 and an 8, I have the 1588 with dual 15's and 8's and I definatly get alot out of the 8" speakers, It sounds like there's more coming out of them that the 15's.

Tonefight,

I have 4 of the TR1503's and I also get plenty of sound out out the 8" mid driver. They make it very easy to get the vocals out of the mix.

Craven Sound · Post by **Craven Sound** » Wednesday Mar 17, 2004

The band that I used to work with used a 2x15 and a 2" as a mid-high box, and I was never happy with the upper mid range out of the system, but I could only work with what tools I was provided. There are no touring systems out today with a 15" mid, the largest mid driver I've seen is 12", and some even use a 6.5 for a high-mid. Just a suggestion.

Mike

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Wednesday Mar 17, 2004

That sounds right. We used to use the old horn-loaded 15" Perkins boxes, stacked with 1" dual horns on top, and I missed the clean mid-high sound... of course the guys would crank the Marshalls to 11 anyway, so they filled the room with guitar to cover the high-mid. That system was awesome outdoors, but most rooms were too small for it, we needed front-mounted speakers, not horn loaded. Good thread.---->JMS

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Wednesday Mar 17, 2004

I seriously took what Ron said into consideration last night whenever we did our usual Tuesday night acoustic jam at Shooters and after listening, I definitely agree. We are lacking mid frequencies from a borrowed pair of Peavey 15"/horn loaded cabs that we used to have with a set of 12"/horns. Thanks for pointing that out Ron. Looks like I'm back to the drawing board as for as getting specs and prices from different companies, however this should be an investment worth while for our setup.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Thursday Mar 18, 2004

For what you guys are doing, the Electrovoice SX300 would be very very very hard to beat. They can cost big $$$, but I got a pair of new old stock on eBay for $600. If you only need 200Wrms speakers, the SX100plus are excellent and a lot less $$$$. These models have "ring-mode decoupling" while the older SX200 and SX100 do not. I agree with Ron about the driver size. The 12" in these models are crystal clear and punchy down to 80 hz. They go down to 50hz with EQing, but why would you want to. Match up the SX300s with the right subs and you have a great sounding band PA that will work in most local indoor venues.

Beware the name-brand low-cost lines. You can't even buy a pro rawframe JBL driver for those prices.

Heres an eBay search:

http://cq-search.ebay.com/search/search ... sicSearch=

Here are the PDF engineering specs (right mouse click and save as):

http://www.electrovoice.com/electrovoic ... 534694.pdf

http://www.electrovoice.com/electrovoic ... 535581.pdf

onetooloud · Post by **onetooloud** » Thursday Mar 18, 2004

Right on lone wolf the Ev Sx300s would be a great choice for what Facing West is looking for.

The cabs are light in weight and offer good intelligibility. The molded boxes can probably be hit buy a truck and still perform. The boxes where groundbreakers when first on the market.

Bob Capotosto has some up for sale, and If you know Bob you'll also know his gear is top shelf.

Facing West I think you guys allready have an incredible acoustic sound. I've never heard anything sound so good in shooters. Seems like that room is very favorable to acoustic acts.

ragztem · Post by **ragztem** » Friday Mar 19, 2004

Ron makes an excellent point, if no drums, no real need for 15s. Of course you always want to hear them first, but speakers are only as good as you make them. $1500 can sound like crap if you dont use them correctly, and $100 speakers can sound like a dream if done correct. When you listen to them, make sure its similiar to your gear you have and will be using.

When we did a couple acoustic shows we used a set of peavey tops with a simple 6 channel powered mixer. I really dont like peavey, but they make some decent stuff for the price and they seem to last forever. I was really suprised how well they they sounded (once we got them off the ground onto a chair or a table). Also, I have a Carvin guitar cab that i am totally satisfied with, real crisp, and has a bunch of extras that i havent seen on most cabs. But like I said, speakers are only as good as you make them sound!!!!

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Friday Mar 19, 2004

Another good point made was how acoustic music sounds vs. louder program material in a given room. That's a clear advantage the acoustic acts have... lower SPL means the room isn't as "excited," and it's easier to get a good clear sound. There's no fighting drum level or guitar cabs. (Sorry guys, I love it loud, too, but it's always been easier for me to get a good sound as a soundman with acoustic program. I never got compliments for my drum sound, but almost always for acoustic material.)
I would guess the same reasoning holds true for the frontline cabs... they don't have as much work to do at lower levels, so they sound better. I couldn't say that scientifically, but it seems that way.
I should say that, for years, my old country band used a Peavey mixer/amp, 210 watts at 4 ohms, and a pair of Peavey 100W 15" + piezo, and we never got any complaints on sound... of course I never cared much for how it sounded myself (it was my gear,too), but nobody seemed to notice, and it was all we had, anyway. They were cheap, took a pretty good beating, and made us a decent pile of money in the end... there's something to be said for that, I guess.----->JMS