EQ & Compression

[LHSL]

Excusse me LHSL im sorry for not posting my wording exactly like you can understand it. but to tell me i can not run my rig this way is bull Compressors are used for Speaker management also. there is nothing wrong with using a compressor after your house Eq . if there was why do you see it on all the riders. I agree that you can over compress something . but from mixer to EQ to Compressor out to the mains or your crossover is a common thing. and you do not need to go to school for that.

be cause a guy ask someone how they do something or why is not the reason to bash the hell out of a guy. you can over Compensate for alot through out a system. and maybe the term cleaning up was not the proper, Wording. I end up with a Flat EQ using my set up the way it is. and use my FOH EQ for Removeing things not to boost them.

I have never seen a rider from a band with a BE that knew their ass from a hole in the ground that wanted a compressor inserted on the main mix at all let alone AFTER the EQ.

I consider myself an expert on this stuff and I hate to see bad advice get passed around. Then people start complaining about these poor little systems blowing drivers. It's just a best practice (IMO) to ditch the compressor on the main outs, get a good limiter, and bring enough rig for the gig.

[HBSPro]

Once Again you must not have read the whole post i never said i insert my comp/limiter on my mains. from the orginal post i said it was a option. that ive seen done. as far as the riders go once again I never said anything about the comp/ limiter being inserted.

I use a comp/ limiter in my signal chain after my EQ. before my Crossovers.

AS far as a expert thats your opinion just dont go to the basement for the anwsers.
and read what the guy posted not what you thought you read or bash others information.
if your useing a drive rack then thers is a comp/limiter in it do you have it turned on .

and as far as never seen a rider request for a com/limiter on the FOH your wrong. ( and again nothing said about inserting it. just a comp/limiter )

I guess if you need to see it the molly hatchet rider has it in it. and so did the (QUIRT RIOT , ART GARFUNKEL, BOC, STEPHENWOLF, and so on.

Ron Im not trying to pick a fight withn you. the post was not mine it was a guy asking for ways people use comp. or comp/limiters ive seen my share of different things in various systems nothing suprieses me.

[LHSL]

Once Again you must not have read the whole post i never said i insert my comp/limiter on my mains. from the orginal post i said it was a option. that ive seen done. as far as the riders go once again I never said anything about the comp/ limiter being inserted.

I use a comp/ limiter in my signal chain after my EQ. before my Crossovers.

And I'm not saying you do insert it. I'm saying it's a bad idea either way you do it.

AS far as a expert thats your opinion just dont go to the basement for the anwsers.

I'm not looking for answers. I know signal chain 101. I was trying to raise the signal to noise ratio around here, since 1) this is a local site dedicated to local live music and 2) I'm local.

if your useing a drive rack then thers is a comp/limiter in it do you have it turned on .

I actually suggested elsewhere to put a limiter after crossover before the amplifiers. This is pretty standard practice. Why the driverack allows one to use a compressor.... uhhh, there is this thing called soft limiting which some speaker manufacturers recommend. However, putting a compressor before the crossover before or after EQ doesn't serve this purpose. In most small bar rigs around here it acts as a voice coil cooker.

and as far as never seen a rider request for a com/limiter on the FOH your wrong.

I said no knowledgeable engineer would do it that way.

( and again nothing said about inserting it. just a comp/limiter )

What the heck are you talking about? I'm beginning to think you really don't understand this stuff. All inserting a compressor does it put it before the main outs. Makes no difference to me where it is. Before or after EQ, inserted into main outs... It's still a bad idea.

Ron Im not trying to pick a fight withn you. the post was not mine it was a guy asking for ways people use comp. or comp/limiters ive seen my share of different things in various systems nothing suprieses me.

First, who the hell is Ron? It doesn't surprise me either. My point is there are smart things to do, and not so smart things to do. And to those listening, using a compressor on the main outs of a small to medium sized bar rig is just asking for trouble.

If you need it on a big rig... then there is something else terribly wrong.

[lonewolf]

I wonder why the engineers at dbx and Sabine put a regular compressor before the crossover AND a hard limiter just before the outputs of their Driverack and NAV speaker management processors? They couldn't possibly have wanted anybody to use that compressor on the main outs, now could they?

(please read disclaimer)

[LHSL]

I wonder why the engineers at dbx and Sabine put a regular compressor before the crossover AND a hard limiter just before the outputs of their Driverack and NAV speaker management processors? They couldn't possibly have wanted anybody to use that compressor on the main outs, now could they?

(please read disclaimer)

You can't prevent users from being idiots and blowing up a system.

Additionally, the "customer" is always right.

With your argument, I could easily say "the power rating for a speaker is all that matters!, man. Everything else is bunk! Why else would Peavey, Yorkville, Yamaha, and Mackie advertise the watts?, man."

When in reality, power handling has little to nothing at all to do with which loudspeaker is better than another. However, to the uneducated public, power handling is king. So, manufacturers found it easier to advertise on power rather than educate users about what really matters.

So somehow, the fact that manufacturer uses a feature to advertise why their product is "better" is proof that there is merit to the science behind it.

phht. Try again.

[lonewolf]

You completely sidestepped the question. Why would those degreed, experienced top-notch audio design engineers put a compressor where you say there shouldn't be one? It is not a marketing analogy for power handling. I began a career as a design engineer when you were still swimming in your daddy's nutsack and had my first engineering patent about the time your mama squeezed you out. I can tell you that we don't design analogies.

You come on here and in so many words tell several people who have been at this longer than you've been alive that they are full of shit.

Then you have the audacity to insinuate that somehow you know more than the dbx and Sabine engineering departments.

Well sonny, I'm here to tell you that you are the one who is full of shit.

[DATASOUND]

Holy shit. I get the feeling that all you engineers don’t see eye to eye nor do you play well together. But I’m guessing you know each other? It’s a shame because I truly like talking about sound tech stuff. I was going to post a reply to each in regards to your post, but it may be a little confusing at this point. But I will say this. Just because I (the original poster) asked a question, doesn’t mean I don’t know the answers. I have mixed a couple of shows so far. I just wanted to know how others felt about the subject. Didn’t realize the feelings would be this strong.

Sorry to jump in, you may continue.

[lonewolf]

Sorry again for the disturbance Datasound. I am now officially done with this thread. There is no rivalry and I don't know this person although I've heard a lot from others recently. He had insulted you and everybody else on this thread and I just had enough of it.

BTW, I'd like to remind everybody that the title "Engineer" belongs to:

1. Persons with engineering degrees
2. Persons who pass the Professional Engineering test
3. Persons who log thousands of hours in an engineering field and receive recognition for that achievement by their company or organization.

Any other use of the title is simply fraud, just like calling a medic a doctor.

[DATASOUND]

Hey, no problem. Thanks for stoppin in.

[LHSL]

You completely sidestepped the question. Why would those degreed, experienced top-notch audio design engineers put a compressor where you say there shouldn't be one?

For the reasons I listed. My statement was already made on why this happens.

If you do a little research, only the Driverack 260, PA, and Studio provides this function you speak of. The DR480 does not. Why? because a pro using a DR480 would not want this feature.

In the Driverack 260 manual they don't even mention using the post EQ pre x-over compressor on the main outs of a system. It states:

The Compressor is the perfect tool for tightening uneven signal sources such as vocals and guitars. The Limiters are located on each output channel and have been strategically placed for speaker and amplifier protection.

They seem to know what they are talking about there. I think they made a great suggestion. I know several briefcase engineers that carry a 260 with them to use as an inserted 2 channel compressor on vocals, bass guitar, and other things while using the sub harmonic synth for bass, keys, and other items.

I know none that use the compressor as a "mix compressor." They know as well as I do, that it's a bad idea and doesn't serve much purpose.

It is not a marketing analogy for power handling. I began a career as a design engineer when you were still swimming in your daddy's nutsack and had my first engineering patent about the time your mama squeezed you out. I can tell you that we don't design analogies.

I didn't say it was an analogy. I made the analogy. I don't give a shit who you were or are. There are best practices, and I'm sorry... compression on a main mix is rarely one of them.

The problem is systemic IMO. People see this done by other people that don't really even know why or what it's doing. For instance: I went to see a good friend of mine playing out at the White Lady last summer. The guy providing and operating the sound system had a Behringer Autocom Pro on the mix output. Not sure if it was inserted or post-EQ (no matter).

He had the ratio set to 4:1 and the threshold at about -15. Then, he had his crossover input set at +6, the output set at +6 and the gains on an RMX5050 set to MAX. Main faders all the way up, channel clipping... he could make maybe 85dB at FOH 50' back. Pretty piss poor IMO. The simple reason was the dammed compressor that was set up like a 3rd grader did it. He was squashing the hell out of the signal, and trying to compensate in so many other areas it sounded like utter poo.

Hence, when I see the suggestion to put a compressor any where near the main outs, I cringe. It is completely unnecessary and does nothing for you.

You come on here and in so many words tell several people who have been at this longer than you've been alive that they are full of shit.

I'm not telling anyone they are full of shit. I'm using my engineering background and my experience in pro audio to raise the fucking signal to noise ratio around here. If you don't think I know what I'm talking about, come see a show. I can guaran-fucking-tee it will A) sound good and B) keep making good sound all night long. Ask others that have worked with me. I don't disappoint.

Then you have the audacity to insinuate that somehow you know more than the dbx and Sabine engineering departments.

Never did such a thing. Sometimes, marketing departments can get in the way. The Driverack 260 manual is an EXCELLENT example of instruction of how to use that compressor that is pre x-over. They never suggest using it as a main mix compressor.

Well sonny, I'm here to tell you that you are the one who is full of shit.

Lonewolf, you continue to take this to a personal level. I guess you have either nothing better to do, or have a personal vendetta against me.

I'm giving people good advice and you just attack my posts. Good luck to you.

[LHSL]

Sorry again for the disturbance Datasound. I am now officially done with this thread. There is no rivalry and I don't know this person although I've heard a lot from others recently. He had insulted you and everybody else on this thread and I just had enough of it.

BTW, I'd like to remind everybody that the title "Engineer" belongs to:

1. Persons with engineering degrees
2. Persons who pass the Professional Engineering test
3. Persons who log thousands of hours in an engineering field and receive recognition for that achievement by their company or organization.

Any other use of the title is simply fraud, just like calling a medic a doctor.

It's arrogant attitudes like that that stop progress.

From Wikipedia:

An engineer is someone who is trained or professionally engaged in a branch of engineering.[1] Engineers use creativity, technology, and scientific knowledge to solve practical problems. People who work as engineers normally have an academic degree (or equivalent work experience) in one of the engineering disciplines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Engineer

I suggest you tell the tens of thousands of Computer Science graduates employed as Software Engineers that develop software and systems to monitor medical apparatus, train switching, and the dammed Internet that they are not engineers but "frauds."

[floodcitybrass]

Here's my take...
Alot of times you have to answer questions with more questions. You can't just generalize an answer for the questions and say "always put comps before eqs."

The real question that must be asked to the orginal poster is
"WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO ACHIEVE??"

Eg- Are you trying to run it as a soft limiter?
Are you trying to to gently compress (1.2:1) the entire mix?
Are you trying to squash the entire mix to fit in a smaller dynamic range?
Are you trying to make a better sounding smoother mix?
Are you trying to squash certain frequencies more than others?
etc...

So in stating all that... Yes I have seen comps on the mains and I have seen comps after eqs BUT there is a particular goal for each type. If there is no side chain in your comp, you have to insert the eq first. I have seen comps on mains but you really have to know what your are doing and be careful. If someone says that they compress the mains, you need to take it with a grain of salt. Just be very careful and don't experiement with comps on mains without knowing the following:


What is the dynamic range of your system?
Do you have unity gain throughout your entire signal chain?
What level of SPL are you trying to achieve and are your amps gains/dsp gains set accordingly?
What is the gain of your amp?
Do you understand that all of the following amps actually have the same amount of gain (QSC PLX 1202, 1602, 2402, 3002, 3402)?
Do you understand the difference between db and dbu?
Do you know the max output in dbu of your main outs?

I am not down playing anyone's audio knowledge so everyone please take no offense.

[DATASOUND]

Let me post a reminder. I'm capable of determining how I want to do this and when. I want to know how others do it and why.

[LHSL]

Let me post a reminder. I'm capable of determining how I want to do this and when. I want to know how others do it and why.

I don't understand why someone would ask that unless they wanted to learn methods different from their own.

I explained my methods and why I think they are correct. I choose to defend my methodologies because I know they work and I'm tired of seeing people in the area deal with frustrating sound quality. I can't control the fact that others wanted to make it more personal and vulgar. SoP around here though.

I've lived in this area for about 26 years. I love music, and I love it even more when it sounds good. I've devoted a large portion of my life to that endeavor.

[DATASOUND]

Let me post a reminder. I'm capable of determining how I want to do this and when. I want to know how others do it and why.

I don't understand why someone would ask that unless they wanted to learn methods different from their own.

That's part of it. I'm open minded. I'm not stuck to one way of thinking or doing things. I never stop learning. Even if this topic produces no new knowledge it helps me get to know the others who post here. And as I said before, I love to talk about this kind of stuff with other soundguys. Even if I don't agree with them, I'm not here to bash, correct, or belittle anyone.

I explained my methods and why I think they are correct.

Cool, that's all I was looking for.

I choose to defend my methodologies because I know they work and I'm tired of seeing people in the area deal with frustrating sound quality.

Been there, know what you mean.

I can't control the fact that others wanted to make it more personal and vulgar. SoP around here though.

Actually you can. Don't reply to their post. Just answer mine. I understand what you are saying about "giving bad advice" and all, but wording can go a long way. I always tread lightly on forums. It's just not the same as face to face. People can get the wrong impression very easy. I'm sure I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. Example: I thought you guys knew each other. I was wrong.

I've lived in this area for about 26 years. I love music, and I love it even more when it sounds good. I've devoted a large portion of my life to that endeavor.

Wow, your probably older then me then. LOL That was a joke, just in case. Ditto to the rest.