THe song by reading its contents I get. The song is about someone who is against rigid conformity and staying within the lines. The song embraces going out of the lines. The song emphasizes points by saying WHEN HE GOES OUTSIDE THE LINES HIS INTUITION IS BETTER, ETC. He states that OVERTHINKING AND ANALYZING causes the mind to not be connected to the body.
At the basic LOWER LEVEL, meaning is there. The point, theme, message, etc are easily understood.
From a SUPPORTIVE Standpoint, and an EXECUTION standpoint, there needs to be work here with this song.
1. The song NEVER FURTHERS in story. Each verse SAYS THE SAME THING, only stated differently. Example, if one says YOU ARE MY DREAM MY DESIRE in the first verse, and then in the 2nd verse states YOUR THE ONE FOR ME, MY TRUE LOVE, ( the story does not further) Again, you are repeating same idea only stated differently.
The same goes for this song. Each verse says WHEN I WAS YOUNG I SAW THINGS BLACK AND WHITE, AS I GOT OLDER I STARTED TO SEE BEYOND RIGID THINKING; HE PUSHES THE BOUNDARIES
He repeats that concept in the 2nd verse and in the 3rd verse. This creates the repetitive idea which does not further the story.
When you REPEAT THE CONCEPT over and over and over, IT MAKES THE SONG CONCEPTUALLY GROUNDED. This creates THE OPPOSITE in what you want. Simply because the song TALKS ABOUT BEING RANDOM, GOING BEYOND RIGID, GOING BEYOND CONFORMITY.
Yet, this song oozes conformity. IT LATCHES ON AN IDEA AND STAYS WITH IT, NEVER TO PROGRESS. Hence, it CONTRADICTS ITSELF.
Overall, EVEN THOUGH I GET THE MEANING, it OOZES POOR PROSODY BETWEEN THE MEANING AND THE SUPPORTIVE ELEMENTS
IN OTHER WORDS, THE SONG TALKS THE TALK, BUT DOESN'T WALK THE WALK. If it did, the story would have PROGRESSED and not CONFORM TO THE SAME IDEA STATED OVER AND OVER.
In other words, IT'S DOING WHAT HE STATES HE DOESN'T WANT TO DO
THE LYRIC EVEN CONFORMS IN STRUCTURE. Look at the respective song sections. You could lay the verses over the other verses, with almost an identical match. This is because STRESS AND METER ARE LOCKED IN. FROM A CLEVER STANDPOINT, THE SONG SHOULD NOT HAVE RIGID METER AND STRESS. Again, SUPPORT THE ELEMENT OF RANDOM. That means there should NOT BE ALL THIS REPETITIVENESS IN METER, STRESS, STRUCTURE, AND CONTENTS
Also, WHAT IS LATERALUS? I looked it up and there is no word listed in the dictionary. I wish he would have WORKED THE TITLE INTO THE STORY.
Again, MEANING IS THERE, EXECUTION AND SUPPORT ISNT
LATERALUS CRITIQUED
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RobTheDrummer
- Diamond Member
- Posts: 5227
- Joined: Tuesday Dec 10, 2002
- Location: Tiptonia, Pa
Critics are worthless. They say what they think although no one else may think it, they think they are right, when it is up to the individual to think what he thinks. People can think and decide for themselves, therefore, we need not a man to thinketh for us but to thinketh for himselfith...yes, I DO feel like being a retard.
The bottom line is THEY SETTLED and GAVE INTO THEIR LIMITATIONS
The song only gets the meaning across and that is it. It does what it has to do and stops there.
There never looked at their song from a supportive standpoint.
SONGWRITERS THINK DIFFERENTLY THAN PERFORMERS about songwriting.
For most of these rock bands, LYRICS ARE A CHORE to them. Whatever they manage to get down, IT STAYS AND THEY DON'T CHANGE IT.
If I were them, I would have done several rewrites on the lyric before releasing it. Because it comes off contradicting.
It's like a priest who damns prostitution, YET EVERY FRIDAY HE GOES OUT AND GETS ONE.
This song does that. IT KNOCKS CONFORMITY, YET IT CONFORMS IN EVERY WAY.
1 CONFORMS TO STORY, DOESN'T FURTHER IT
2 CONFORMS IN STRUCTURE, METER, STRESS,
The song only gets the meaning across and that is it. It does what it has to do and stops there.
There never looked at their song from a supportive standpoint.
SONGWRITERS THINK DIFFERENTLY THAN PERFORMERS about songwriting.
For most of these rock bands, LYRICS ARE A CHORE to them. Whatever they manage to get down, IT STAYS AND THEY DON'T CHANGE IT.
If I were them, I would have done several rewrites on the lyric before releasing it. Because it comes off contradicting.
It's like a priest who damns prostitution, YET EVERY FRIDAY HE GOES OUT AND GETS ONE.
This song does that. IT KNOCKS CONFORMITY, YET IT CONFORMS IN EVERY WAY.
1 CONFORMS TO STORY, DOESN'T FURTHER IT
2 CONFORMS IN STRUCTURE, METER, STRESS,
that is because you are judging the song on PERSONAL TASTE.
PERSONAL TASTE DOES NOT EQUAL WELL CRAFTED.
I like songs to that are not very well crafted. Like I have stated before I love sade's music. However, I AM EDUCATED IN SONGWRITING TO KNOW THAT HER LYRICS ARE NOT VERY WELL CRAFTED.
Well crafted = technique, control, direction NOT PERSONAL TASTE
PERSONAL TASTE DOES NOT EQUAL WELL CRAFTED.
I like songs to that are not very well crafted. Like I have stated before I love sade's music. However, I AM EDUCATED IN SONGWRITING TO KNOW THAT HER LYRICS ARE NOT VERY WELL CRAFTED.
Well crafted = technique, control, direction NOT PERSONAL TASTE
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bassist_25
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6815
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: Indiana
Re: LATERALUS CRITIQUED
God, you have really showed how uneducated you really are. THE SONG IS PURPOSELY BASED ON THE FIBONACCI SEQUENCE.metalrules wrote:
THE LYRIC EVEN CONFORMS IN STRUCTURE. Look at the respective song sections. You could lay the verses over the other verses, with almost an identical match. This is because STRESS AND METER ARE LOCKED IN. FROM A CLEVER STANDPOINT, THE SONG SHOULD NOT HAVE RIGID METER AND STRESS. Again, SUPPORT THE ELEMENT OF RANDOM. That means there should NOT BE ALL THIS REPETITIVENESS IN METER, STRESS, STRUCTURE, AND CONTENTS
Here's a much more interesting interpertation of the song. Of course, it's probaly all "wrong" since it much more well thought out then your pseudo-intellectual garbage.
http://www.bofe.org/overthinking.htm
And isn't it ironic that Maynard is singing about overanalyzing?
TRUST ME ON THIS PEOPLE, the drummer may be doing some FIBONACCI NUMBER SEQUENCE, AHAHAHAHAHHHHH but the song is about NOT CONFORMING AND BEING SO RIGID. IT IS ABOUT DRAWING OUTSIDE THE LINES, BEING DIFFERENT, ETC
Black then white are all I see in my infancy
THAT MEANS IN MY YOUNGER AGE, I SAW THINGS IN BLACK AND WHITE
red and and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me, lets me see
THAT MEANS SUDDENLY I STARTED GETTING CREATIVE, THINKING DIFFERENTLY, IT BECAME MORE APPEALING TO THINK THAT WAY, IT IS WHO I AM NOW
This concept of NOT CONFORMING AND DRAWING OUTSIDE THE BOX is further emphasized in the chorus section
OVER THINKING, OVER ANALYZING SEPARATES THE BODY FROM MIND
that means YOUR ALL MIND AND THE NATURAL RAW ABILITY YOUR BODY CREATES AND JUST DOES NORMALLY IS LOST AND NOT USED
THE LYRIC AS FOLLOWS
Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
lets me see.
As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
drawn beyond the lines of reason.
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
lets me see there is so much more
and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
drawn outside the lines of reason.
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
Reaching out to embrace the random.
Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
I embrace my desire to
feel the rhythm, to feel connected
enough to step aside and weep like a widow
to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
to swing on the spiral
of our divinity and still be a human.
With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
between the sounds and open wide to suck it in.
I feel it move across my skin.
I'm reaching up and reaching out.
I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out. Keep going...
As you can see the song is what I just stated. There is nothing about DRUGS, AND FIBONACCI NUMBERS. If some drummer is doing something weird like that IT IS A SUPPORTIVE ELEMENT, to help add to LETS NOT BE NORMAL feeling
Again, the problem of this song is like a priest that damns prostitution but gets a hooker on fridays
It talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
The message is easy to get. DONT CONFORM, THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX, ETC
The problem i have is THERE ARE NO SUPPORTIVE ELEMENTS
1 structure is repetitive
2 story is repetitive
Hence, STRICK RIGID, BOXED IN, and CONFORMS
Black then white are all I see in my infancy
THAT MEANS IN MY YOUNGER AGE, I SAW THINGS IN BLACK AND WHITE
red and and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me, lets me see
THAT MEANS SUDDENLY I STARTED GETTING CREATIVE, THINKING DIFFERENTLY, IT BECAME MORE APPEALING TO THINK THAT WAY, IT IS WHO I AM NOW
This concept of NOT CONFORMING AND DRAWING OUTSIDE THE BOX is further emphasized in the chorus section
OVER THINKING, OVER ANALYZING SEPARATES THE BODY FROM MIND
that means YOUR ALL MIND AND THE NATURAL RAW ABILITY YOUR BODY CREATES AND JUST DOES NORMALLY IS LOST AND NOT USED
THE LYRIC AS FOLLOWS
Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
lets me see.
As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
drawn beyond the lines of reason.
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition, missing opportunities and I must
Feed my will to feel my moment drawing way outside the lines.
Black then white are all I see in my infancy.
red and yellow then came to be, reaching out to me.
lets me see there is so much more
and beckons me to look through to these infinite possibilities.
As below, so above and beyond, I imagine
drawn outside the lines of reason.
Push the envelope. Watch it bend.
Over thinking, over analyzing separates the body from the mind.
Withering my intuition leaving all these opportunities behind.
Feed my will to feel this moment urging me to cross the line.
Reaching out to embrace the random.
Reaching out to embrace whatever may come.
I embrace my desire to
feel the rhythm, to feel connected
enough to step aside and weep like a widow
to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
to swing on the spiral
of our divinity and still be a human.
With my feet upon the ground I lose myself
between the sounds and open wide to suck it in.
I feel it move across my skin.
I'm reaching up and reaching out.
I'm reaching for the random or what ever will bewilder me.
And following our will and wind we may just go where no one's been.
We'll ride the spiral to the end and may just go where no one's been.
Spiral out. Keep going...
As you can see the song is what I just stated. There is nothing about DRUGS, AND FIBONACCI NUMBERS. If some drummer is doing something weird like that IT IS A SUPPORTIVE ELEMENT, to help add to LETS NOT BE NORMAL feeling
Again, the problem of this song is like a priest that damns prostitution but gets a hooker on fridays
It talks the talk but doesn't walk the walk.
The message is easy to get. DONT CONFORM, THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX, ETC
The problem i have is THERE ARE NO SUPPORTIVE ELEMENTS
1 structure is repetitive
2 story is repetitive
Hence, STRICK RIGID, BOXED IN, and CONFORMS
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facingwest
- Retroactive Member
- Posts: 651
- Joined: Wednesday Apr 09, 2003
- Location: Key West, FL
- Contact:
For the person criticising, I'm curious to hear what your works are and where we might be able to listen to them. I'm really interested in what you've written and recorded.
The liver is evil....It needs punished.
http://rockpage.net/bands/bands.php?band=johnsolinski
http://rockpage.net/bands/bands.php?band=johnsolinski
Again, as I stated before, these boards have HIGH THEFT in song idea stealing. I don't post my work because i have seen too many boards heavily borrow on theme, content, etc
Sorry, I just don't trust anyone of you. I find that PA has bands that play mostly cover tunes, and are itchy to have original material which they seem to not be able to efficiently write.
Also I would like to say that WHAT I DO, has NOTHING TO DO WITH FACTS
A math whiz says 2+2=5, a high school drop out says, no you are wrong it is 4, WHO IS RIGHT?
I always like to tell people PRETEND I CAN'T WRITE IF THAT MAKES YOU SLEEP BETTER. However, IT STILL DOESN'T RIGHT THE WRONGS OF WHAT I CRITIQUE. A lyrical time frame problem will be a lyrical time frame problem whether I post or don't, whether I can write or can't write
Sorry, I just don't trust anyone of you. I find that PA has bands that play mostly cover tunes, and are itchy to have original material which they seem to not be able to efficiently write.
Also I would like to say that WHAT I DO, has NOTHING TO DO WITH FACTS
A math whiz says 2+2=5, a high school drop out says, no you are wrong it is 4, WHO IS RIGHT?
I always like to tell people PRETEND I CAN'T WRITE IF THAT MAKES YOU SLEEP BETTER. However, IT STILL DOESN'T RIGHT THE WRONGS OF WHAT I CRITIQUE. A lyrical time frame problem will be a lyrical time frame problem whether I post or don't, whether I can write or can't write
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bassist_25
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6815
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: Indiana
Dude, YOU're just fishing for things wrong so you can prove your point that the musicians/artists we supposedly idolize, are idiots. Both Maynard James Keenan and Danny Carey OBVIOUSLY chose to use the Fibonacci sequence. Because the form of the song changes every meter, the melody NEEDs to conform to the rythm. Using a polyrythmic or polymeter device may in fact clutter up the song. YOUR other thread complained that the verses didn't have much form to them. You're contradicting yourself in almost every post. You still haven't given any opinions on what constitutes ART. I was hoping that you would chime in on the thread about playing with a SPOON. To me, doing things like that is thinking outside of the box. I do applaud you for holding art up to high standards and analyzing it to better yourself. Some people might be FED up with you, but I think you and I are more alike than either of us would like to admit. I'm actually one of the biggest perfectionist you'll ever meet. I enjoy entertaining "abstract" thoughts though. If I were TO anaylze a song, I would go more for the cultural meaning behind it. One of my favorite poets is Allen Ginsberg because he broke traditional forms. He believed that form held back the raw emotion of what he was trying to express. Either way, I hope YOU think about what I said in regards to abstract thought. It's funny how the brain will pick up on patterns and such. Thus how it relates to Lateralis and the fabonacci sequence.
I am not contradicting myself simply because EVERY SONG IS DIFFERENT AND GETS JUDGED DIFFERENTLY
I tell people DON'T HAVE FRAGMENTED THOUGHTS IN A SONG.
I tell them HAVE FRAGMENTED THOUGHTS if the song calls for it. Like a song about a PSYCHO who bibble babbles
This song called LATERALUS, should not have rigid verses in structure WHICH IT DOES, simply because the song is ABOUT NOT CONFORMING AND BEING RIGID
Normally you ALWAYS WANT YOUR VERSES TO HAVE THE SAME STRUCTURE. HOWEVER, in this particular case YOU DO NOT. Again the song is about NOT CONFORMING , DRAWING OUTSIDE THE LINES, BEING DIFFERENT.
What better way than to EMPHASIZE being different than ACTUALLY PLAYING ON THE MEANING.
How does one PLAY ON the meaning. By actually doing it.
1 NOT HAVING VERSES MATCH STRUCTURELY
2 FURTHERING THE STORY , DON'T REPEAT
I tell people DON'T HAVE FRAGMENTED THOUGHTS IN A SONG.
I tell them HAVE FRAGMENTED THOUGHTS if the song calls for it. Like a song about a PSYCHO who bibble babbles
This song called LATERALUS, should not have rigid verses in structure WHICH IT DOES, simply because the song is ABOUT NOT CONFORMING AND BEING RIGID
Normally you ALWAYS WANT YOUR VERSES TO HAVE THE SAME STRUCTURE. HOWEVER, in this particular case YOU DO NOT. Again the song is about NOT CONFORMING , DRAWING OUTSIDE THE LINES, BEING DIFFERENT.
What better way than to EMPHASIZE being different than ACTUALLY PLAYING ON THE MEANING.
How does one PLAY ON the meaning. By actually doing it.
1 NOT HAVING VERSES MATCH STRUCTURELY
2 FURTHERING THE STORY , DON'T REPEAT
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bassist_25
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6815
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: Indiana
But maybe the intention of the writer is to provide a contrast with conforming lyrics? I've stated before that the meaning to all of Tool's music is "evolution". This song is obviously about evolution. It's obviously breaking the fibonicci sequence in the later part of the song. The song is evolving.
And you kind of proved my point about thinking in abstract and how you seem to take everything at face value.
And you kind of proved my point about thinking in abstract and how you seem to take everything at face value.
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facingwest
- Retroactive Member
- Posts: 651
- Joined: Wednesday Apr 09, 2003
- Location: Key West, FL
- Contact:
That's what a copyright is for. I have original material and play in cover bands as well. You'll never hear any original unless I have the slip of paper in my hand for the copyright and if I'd hear someone else playing something that I wrote, I'd be honored that someone actually liked and showed interest in it.metalrules wrote:Again, as I stated before, these boards have HIGH THEFT in song idea stealing. I don't post my work because i have seen too many boards heavily borrow on theme, content, etc
Sorry, I just don't trust anyone of you. I find that PA has bands that play mostly cover tunes, and are itchy to have original material which they seem to not be able to efficiently write.
A person is entitled to any opinion they want to give. The part that I'm going after is the credibility behind a person's words. For someone to criticize as much as you have been, you obviously know something the majority of us don't. For that reason, I'd like for you to share the works that you've done in comparison to what you criticize about. If you can't show 'proof in the pudding', than you must be a 'blow hard'.
The liver is evil....It needs punished.
http://rockpage.net/bands/bands.php?band=johnsolinski
http://rockpage.net/bands/bands.php?band=johnsolinski
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bassist_25
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6815
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: Indiana
Oops, I see you did pick up on my message. Well, I may not over analyze stuff and fall back on ad hominem insults, but I do pride myself on knowing a thing or two about the writing process. 
Either way, it's late and I'm tired of having a battle of wits with someone who has brought a Nerf ball shooter to a tank battle. Check that out; I took a cliche and personalized it. I'm thinking outside of the box. Booyah.
Either way, it's late and I'm tired of having a battle of wits with someone who has brought a Nerf ball shooter to a tank battle. Check that out; I took a cliche and personalized it. I'm thinking outside of the box. Booyah.-
bassist_25
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6815
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: Indiana
Geez.
There's something that's bothering me.
Between Mr. Rules and Aja, I'm starting to think bad things about Berklee, an institution that I've idolized in the past, mainly because a very good friend of mine graduated from there in the 70's, and he can rock anyone's world on any instrument you can hand to him.
Metalrules' posts led me to Berklee's website. I thought that you had to have chops to get into Berklee, but from what I read, it looks like you only need to audition for scholarships, not for admittance.
Here's a disturbing quote from their website...
"Berklee is neither just a jazz school, nor just a rock/pop school, but a college offering all styles of contemporary music for today's music industry."
Sounds almost like their buildin' robots for the record companies. And rock and pop are merely second cousins to jazz. Elitism? You bet. I have proof in 75 database entries.
There's something that's bothering me.
Between Mr. Rules and Aja, I'm starting to think bad things about Berklee, an institution that I've idolized in the past, mainly because a very good friend of mine graduated from there in the 70's, and he can rock anyone's world on any instrument you can hand to him.
Metalrules' posts led me to Berklee's website. I thought that you had to have chops to get into Berklee, but from what I read, it looks like you only need to audition for scholarships, not for admittance.
Here's a disturbing quote from their website...
"Berklee is neither just a jazz school, nor just a rock/pop school, but a college offering all styles of contemporary music for today's music industry."
Sounds almost like their buildin' robots for the record companies. And rock and pop are merely second cousins to jazz. Elitism? You bet. I have proof in 75 database entries.
... and then the wheel fell off.
Rather amusing that Mr. Music Nazi, with all his degrees and umpteen lectures as to how superior he and his ideas are to everyone one else here writes NO when he should have used KNOW and YOUR when it should have been YOU'RE. Try the local votech for English 101.metalrules wrote:And one other thing, STOP FIGHTING ME ON ISSUES YOU NO NOTHING ABOUT.
Your like a STREET BUM trying to argue medical procedures with a Doctor
Knowledge is power, dude.
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Craven Sound
- Platinum Member
- Posts: 695
- Joined: Wednesday Aug 06, 2003
- Location: Cambria County, PA
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Punkinhead
- Diamond Member
- Posts: 1431
- Joined: Thursday Jun 19, 2003
- Location: The ninth circle of Hell
this is the same thing i was thinking....this was a school at one point I was going to go to...after meeting these two yahoos, I'm kind of glad that I didn'tRon wrote:Geez.
There's something that's bothering me.
Between Mr. Rules and Aja, I'm starting to think bad things about Berklee, an institution that I've idolized in the past, mainly because a very good friend of mine graduated from there in the 70's, and he can rock anyone's world on any instrument you can hand to him.
Metalrules' posts led me to Berklee's website. I thought that you had to have chops to get into Berklee, but from what I read, it looks like you only need to audition for scholarships, not for admittance.
Here's a disturbing quote from their website...
"Berklee is neither just a jazz school, nor just a rock/pop school, but a college offering all styles of contemporary music for today's music industry."
Sounds almost like their buildin' robots for the record companies. And rock and pop are merely second cousins to jazz. Elitism? You bet. I have proof in 75 database entries.
If youth knew; if age could.
Hey Metal!
If you spent as much time actualy playing your instruments as you do running your mouth, you just might someday be as good as you think you are.
I've seen your type before, you're the guy sitting at the bar, bragging to any one who'll listen, that you're better than the band.
Funny that no one ever hears your music, just your mouth.
I suspect that your mouth is the only thing you know how to play.
I got it now, Diarrhea of the mouth, Facist mentality, obbsession with political correctness, Chronic eliteism, rules are for the little people, self idolization, can't play a sax worth a shit!!!
I know who you are now!!!!
YOU"RE BILL CLINTON!!!
PLAY GUITAR!!!
If you spent as much time actualy playing your instruments as you do running your mouth, you just might someday be as good as you think you are.
I've seen your type before, you're the guy sitting at the bar, bragging to any one who'll listen, that you're better than the band.
Funny that no one ever hears your music, just your mouth.
I suspect that your mouth is the only thing you know how to play.
I got it now, Diarrhea of the mouth, Facist mentality, obbsession with political correctness, Chronic eliteism, rules are for the little people, self idolization, can't play a sax worth a shit!!!
I know who you are now!!!!
YOU"RE BILL CLINTON!!!
PLAY GUITAR!!!
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bassist_25
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6815
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: Indiana