I want to show you the same lyric, THE ONLY DIFFERENCE will be that the chorus has changed.
In doing this , ONE LYRIC WILL BE CRITIQUED AS A BAD UNCONTROLLED LYRIC, the other will be viewed as A WELL CRAFTED LYRIC.
The first example will be HEART'S THESE DREAMS WITH MY EXAMPLE CHORUS ALONG WITH IT. Sudden the song is NOT WELL CRAFTED
Spare a little candle
Save some light for me
Figures up ahead
Moving in the trees
White skin in linen
Perfume on my wrist
And the full moon that hangs over
These dreams in the mist
Darkness on the edge
Shadows where I stand
I search for the time
On a watch with no hands
I want to see you clearly
Come closer than this
But all I remember
Are the dreams in the mist
CHORUS:
HOLD MY HAND AND DON'T LET GO
I REALLY LOVE YOU DON'T YOU KNOW
EVERY DAY THAT WE ARE TOGETHER
MAKES ME WANT TO BE WITH YOU FOREVER
Is it cloak 'n' dagger
Could it be spring or fall
I walk without a cut
Through a stained glass wall
Weaker in my eyesight
The candle in my grip
And words that have no form
Are falling from my lips
CHORUS
There's something out there
I can't resist
I need to hide away from the pain
There's something out there
I can't resist
The sweetest song is silence
That I've ever heard
Funny how your feet
In dreams never touch the earth
In a wood full of princes
Freedom is a kiss
But the prince hides his face
From dreams in the mist
CHORUS
CHORUS
Suddenly the song looses the JUSTIFIABLE FACTOR of being able to use FRAGMENTED THOUGHTS AND CONFUSING IMAGERY.
Now the song is JUST ANOTHER I RAMBLE AND HIDE BEHIND SMOKE SCREENS AND MIRROS. Again ANYONE, ANYONE, ANYONE can NOT MAKE SENSE and bibble babble.
The song now shows NO CONTROL, NO DIRECTION
However now lets look at the SAME LYRIC, with the Bernie Taupin CHORUS SECTION
Spare a little candle
Save some light for me
Figures up ahead
Moving in the trees
White skin in linen
Perfume on my wrist
And the full moon that hangs over
These dreams in the mist
Darkness on the edge
Shadows where I stand
I search for the time
On a watch with no hands
I want to see you clearly
Come closer than this
But all I remember
Are the dreams in the mist
CHORUS:
THESE DREAMS GO ON WHEN I CLOSE MY EYES
EVERY SECOND OF THE NIGHT I LIVE ANOTHER LIFE
THESE DREAMS THAT SLEEP WHEN IT'S COLD OUTSIDE
EVERY MOMENT I'M AWAK THE FURTHER I'M AWAY
Is it cloak 'n' dagger
Could it be spring or fall
I walk without a cut
Through a stained glass wall
Weaker in my eyesight
The candle in my grip
And words that have no form
Are falling from my lips
CHORUS
There's something out there
I can't resist
I need to hide away from the pain
There's something out there
I can't resist
The sweetest song is silence
That I've ever heard
Funny how your feet
In dreams never touch the earth
In a wood full of princes
Freedom is a kiss
But the prince hides his face
From dreams in the mist
CHORUS
CHORUS
The lyric for the most part IS THE SAME in all the verses. However one version is NOT WELL CRAFTED and the OTHER IS. Why? because ONE DISPLAYS CONTROL and the OTHER DOES NOT.
Bernie's chorus JUSTIFIES THE USE OF CONFUSING IMAGERY and FRAGMENTED THOUGHTS.
My example lyric DOES NOT. My chorus section in combined with the actual lyric just makes the song sound like has NO DIRECTION AND NO CONTROL. Again, anyone can not make sense.
Do not confuse IN THE BOX with having control. As you can see the verses stayed the same. WHich proves YOU CAN DO ANYTHING YOU WANT IN MUSIC AS LONG AS IT IS (JUSTIFIED)
BOX THEORY PART2
What you have to look at is the fact that, WHAT DOES MY EXAMPLE CHORUS HAVE TO DO WITH ALL THAT CONFUSING IMAGERY.
All that confusing imagery TO LEAD TO THE CONCEPT OF STAY WITH ME FOREVER? Again, what does the imagey have to do with that.
Now you people will say, OH YOU ARE THINKING IN THE BOX. However I will respond back by saying AND YOU ARE MINDLESS. Mindless in the fact that you are EXCEPTING a song without justification. Mindless means YOU EXCEPT EVERYTHING AND PASS IT ON AS JUST ARTISTIC EXPRESSION.
All that confusing image that is stated in the verse is JUST CONFUSING IMAGERY. IT is literally bibble babble.
However, the Bernie Taupin lyric NOW JUSTIFIES IT. Dreams often bibble babble. Dreams often do not make sense.
All that confusing imagery TO LEAD TO THE CONCEPT OF STAY WITH ME FOREVER? Again, what does the imagey have to do with that.
Now you people will say, OH YOU ARE THINKING IN THE BOX. However I will respond back by saying AND YOU ARE MINDLESS. Mindless in the fact that you are EXCEPTING a song without justification. Mindless means YOU EXCEPT EVERYTHING AND PASS IT ON AS JUST ARTISTIC EXPRESSION.
All that confusing image that is stated in the verse is JUST CONFUSING IMAGERY. IT is literally bibble babble.
However, the Bernie Taupin lyric NOW JUSTIFIES IT. Dreams often bibble babble. Dreams often do not make sense.
Point taken - Bernie's lyric is a more unified whole than your example. But it's kind of surprising that you like Bernie's lyric to that particular song, because it's pretty typical pop-radio stuff. He throws a lot of pretty imagery out there without really saying anything. It sounds deeper than it really is. "Dreams are bibble babble" isn't a very bold statement.
And the craft isn't even that good. The first line of the chorus has made me cringe ever so slightly for years:
THESE DREAMS GO ON WHEN I CLOSE MY EYES
Not only does it state the obvious, it does so awkwardly. It's like saying:
THE SUN RISES UP WHEN IT'S DAYLIGHT OUT
And what does this line mean:
THESE DREAMS THAT SLEEP WHEN IT'S COLD OUTSIDE
When it's cold outside, the dreams go away? What does that have to do with anything? Wouldn't it make more sense for the speaker to be having these fantasies when it was cold and dreary outside?
Taking a longer look at it, how do you interpret the line about "hiding away from the pain". Is the source of the pain the dreams that are haunting and tempting the speaker? Or are the dreams an escape from some undefined pain in her real life, an escape that is unfulfilling because the dreams are so fleeting? Okay, so at least that part of the song is interesting . . .
If you want to discuss Bernie Taupin and "The Box", take a crack at something like Solar Prestige a Gammon, where he goes totally Dadaist and crafts a nonsense lyric based purely on the tone of the words. That song is so whacked that it makes I Am The Walrus sound like See Spot Run.
And the craft isn't even that good. The first line of the chorus has made me cringe ever so slightly for years:
THESE DREAMS GO ON WHEN I CLOSE MY EYES
Not only does it state the obvious, it does so awkwardly. It's like saying:
THE SUN RISES UP WHEN IT'S DAYLIGHT OUT
And what does this line mean:
THESE DREAMS THAT SLEEP WHEN IT'S COLD OUTSIDE
When it's cold outside, the dreams go away? What does that have to do with anything? Wouldn't it make more sense for the speaker to be having these fantasies when it was cold and dreary outside?
Taking a longer look at it, how do you interpret the line about "hiding away from the pain". Is the source of the pain the dreams that are haunting and tempting the speaker? Or are the dreams an escape from some undefined pain in her real life, an escape that is unfulfilling because the dreams are so fleeting? Okay, so at least that part of the song is interesting . . .
If you want to discuss Bernie Taupin and "The Box", take a crack at something like Solar Prestige a Gammon, where he goes totally Dadaist and crafts a nonsense lyric based purely on the tone of the words. That song is so whacked that it makes I Am The Walrus sound like See Spot Run.
THESE DREAMS GO ON WHEN I CLOSE MY EYES
This generic line is SO IMPORTANT. It clears up and is the JUSTIFICATION LINE for the verses.
The verses ARE THE IMAGES OF THE DREAM. All those confusing imagery and fragmented thoughts are WHAT IS GOING ON in the dream.
Without the generic chorus reading THESE DREAMS GO ON WHEN I CLOSE MY EYES, the above verse says nothing.
Remember at this point the above contents in the verses do not have to make sense. Simply because dreams do not often make sense. The singer is saying to the audience THIS IS WHAT I DREAMED.
THESE DREAMS THAT SLEEP WHEN IT'S COLD OUTSIDE is a bit awkward and could be written a bit better. However, what he tried to do was make the point of
THESE GREAT DRAEMS THAT I HAVE (DON'T HAPPEN) when I am OUTSIDE OF THEM. In other words THE COLD WORLD.
Every moment that i am awake THE FURTHER I AM FROM THOSE DREAMS
I agree with you on the I NEED TO HIDE AWAY FROM THE PAIN. Simply because the singer really doesn't LINK IT WITH ANY EMOTIONAL PAIN of her reality. The line just hangs out there with no really justification on using it.
However, the song is OVERALL WELL CRAFTED. One can always nit pick here and there in a lyric. What a writer should try and do is GET THE SONG AS BEST AS THEY CAN, even when they have to meet deadlines.
THE CHORUS SECTION, EVEN THOUGH IN GENERIC FORM, still serves as the most important part of the song, because it CLARIFIES AND JUSTIFIES the bibble babble.
Even though there is a lot of confusing fragmented imagery in this song, IT IS STATED IN A VERY BEAUTIFUL AND INTERESTING WAY. I would have hated it to go to waste. That is why I am glad there is a JUSTIFICATION FACTOR in this song. Again, it is the generic but clarifying chorus
Again, OVERALL the lyric is well crafted
This generic line is SO IMPORTANT. It clears up and is the JUSTIFICATION LINE for the verses.
The verses ARE THE IMAGES OF THE DREAM. All those confusing imagery and fragmented thoughts are WHAT IS GOING ON in the dream.
Without the generic chorus reading THESE DREAMS GO ON WHEN I CLOSE MY EYES, the above verse says nothing.
Remember at this point the above contents in the verses do not have to make sense. Simply because dreams do not often make sense. The singer is saying to the audience THIS IS WHAT I DREAMED.
THESE DREAMS THAT SLEEP WHEN IT'S COLD OUTSIDE is a bit awkward and could be written a bit better. However, what he tried to do was make the point of
THESE GREAT DRAEMS THAT I HAVE (DON'T HAPPEN) when I am OUTSIDE OF THEM. In other words THE COLD WORLD.
Every moment that i am awake THE FURTHER I AM FROM THOSE DREAMS
I agree with you on the I NEED TO HIDE AWAY FROM THE PAIN. Simply because the singer really doesn't LINK IT WITH ANY EMOTIONAL PAIN of her reality. The line just hangs out there with no really justification on using it.
However, the song is OVERALL WELL CRAFTED. One can always nit pick here and there in a lyric. What a writer should try and do is GET THE SONG AS BEST AS THEY CAN, even when they have to meet deadlines.
THE CHORUS SECTION, EVEN THOUGH IN GENERIC FORM, still serves as the most important part of the song, because it CLARIFIES AND JUSTIFIES the bibble babble.
Even though there is a lot of confusing fragmented imagery in this song, IT IS STATED IN A VERY BEAUTIFUL AND INTERESTING WAY. I would have hated it to go to waste. That is why I am glad there is a JUSTIFICATION FACTOR in this song. Again, it is the generic but clarifying chorus
Again, OVERALL the lyric is well crafted
The thing I like BEST about These Dreams by heart, is the SHOCK VALUE that the chorus PUNCHES YOU.
It is like a door that was suddenly opened and MEANING JUST POURED IN LIKE A TIDAL WAVE SENDING YOU FLYING
If you just read the first 8 lines of the song, the verse DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Again, the imagery is confusing and the thoughts are fragmented.
As soon as you hear that chorus land............ WHAAAAAAAAAAAAM. Meaning just PUNCHED YOU right in the face.
He creates that WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM effect by techniques and control
1 he sets the verse up using PRESENT TENSE ACTION. The action is going on now, OR SO WE THINK.
2 he avoids explaining the actions as dreams until the chorus comes.
That control technique is what allows for us to be PUNCHED
Lets DE-PUNCH the song.
He he would have started the song off by saying I HAVE DREAMS AT NIGHT, THIS IS WHAT I SEE................ spare a little candle , save some light for me, etc, etc
The song now looses all its shock, punch you in the face, value
It is like a door that was suddenly opened and MEANING JUST POURED IN LIKE A TIDAL WAVE SENDING YOU FLYING
If you just read the first 8 lines of the song, the verse DOES NOT MAKE SENSE. Again, the imagery is confusing and the thoughts are fragmented.
As soon as you hear that chorus land............ WHAAAAAAAAAAAAM. Meaning just PUNCHED YOU right in the face.
He creates that WHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAM effect by techniques and control
1 he sets the verse up using PRESENT TENSE ACTION. The action is going on now, OR SO WE THINK.
2 he avoids explaining the actions as dreams until the chorus comes.
That control technique is what allows for us to be PUNCHED
Lets DE-PUNCH the song.
He he would have started the song off by saying I HAVE DREAMS AT NIGHT, THIS IS WHAT I SEE................ spare a little candle , save some light for me, etc, etc
The song now looses all its shock, punch you in the face, value
But the chorus doesn't punch you. Look at the end of the first verse . . . . it tells you that it's all a dream before it even gets to the chorus. So there's no big surprise. And the imagery should give it away anyway. Shadowy figures, hazy images moving in a mist, feet not touching the earth - standard cliche dream images. The song doesn't have to come right out and tell you what it's about, but it does anyway. The lyrics do the thinking for you. What fun is that?
It still is very punchy because
1 the action is going on now.
2 we don't know it is the narrators DREAMS YET.
When an action is going on now, the listener thinks of it in present tense. So if the guy is A SLEEP, he couldn't be telling the audience about a dream in present tense.
However, HE GETS AWAY WITH IT, because He TALKS of the dream in present tense, AND YOU DON'T GET THAT UNTIL THE CHORUS LANDS.
The ending sections of each verse 2 sections could mean DECEPTION, rather than actual dream. For instance , I SAW A SHADOWY FIGURE UP AHEAD, HOWEVER WAS IT SOME SORT OF ILLUSION OR DREAM?
That does not say the guy is dreaming at this point. The action is PRESENT TENSE GOING ON NOW.
So when the chorus lands it says THOSE ARE MY DREAMS. To me it is very punchy.
The fact of THE ORDER OF EVENTS also is not the COMMON CLICHE WAY
Most writers who lack control or have only limited knowledge would have set the song up in the TYPICAL CLICHE ORDER. And, that is
I HAVE THESE DREAMS AT NIGHT......................AND THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE, ETC
This song reverses the action. It describes confusing imagery, and then says OH BY THE WAY THIS IS WHAT I DREAM AT NIGHT
I am sorry you can't see the CONTROL AND CLEVER FACTOR OF THAT TECHNIQUE. That is a shame
1 the action is going on now.
2 we don't know it is the narrators DREAMS YET.
When an action is going on now, the listener thinks of it in present tense. So if the guy is A SLEEP, he couldn't be telling the audience about a dream in present tense.
However, HE GETS AWAY WITH IT, because He TALKS of the dream in present tense, AND YOU DON'T GET THAT UNTIL THE CHORUS LANDS.
The ending sections of each verse 2 sections could mean DECEPTION, rather than actual dream. For instance , I SAW A SHADOWY FIGURE UP AHEAD, HOWEVER WAS IT SOME SORT OF ILLUSION OR DREAM?
That does not say the guy is dreaming at this point. The action is PRESENT TENSE GOING ON NOW.
So when the chorus lands it says THOSE ARE MY DREAMS. To me it is very punchy.
The fact of THE ORDER OF EVENTS also is not the COMMON CLICHE WAY
Most writers who lack control or have only limited knowledge would have set the song up in the TYPICAL CLICHE ORDER. And, that is
I HAVE THESE DREAMS AT NIGHT......................AND THIS IS WHAT THEY ARE, ETC
This song reverses the action. It describes confusing imagery, and then says OH BY THE WAY THIS IS WHAT I DREAM AT NIGHT
I am sorry you can't see the CONTROL AND CLEVER FACTOR OF THAT TECHNIQUE. That is a shame
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Punkinhead
- Diamond Member
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- Location: The ninth circle of Hell
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HurricaneBob
- AA Member
- Posts: 2790
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: /root/2/pub
- Contact:
Hey Metal!
If you spent as much time actualy playing your instruments as you do running your mouth, you just might someday be as good as you think you are.
I've seen your type before, you're the guy sitting at the bar, bragging to any one who'll listen, that you're better than the band.
Funny that no one ever hears your music, just your mouth.
I suspect that your mouth is the only thing you know how to play.
I got it now, Diarrhea of the mouth, Facist mentality, obbsession with political correctness, Chronic eliteism, rules are for the little people, self idolization, can't play a sax worth a shit!!!
I know who you are now!!!!
YOU"RE BILL CLINTON!!!
PLAY GUITAR!!!
If you spent as much time actualy playing your instruments as you do running your mouth, you just might someday be as good as you think you are.
I've seen your type before, you're the guy sitting at the bar, bragging to any one who'll listen, that you're better than the band.
Funny that no one ever hears your music, just your mouth.
I suspect that your mouth is the only thing you know how to play.
I got it now, Diarrhea of the mouth, Facist mentality, obbsession with political correctness, Chronic eliteism, rules are for the little people, self idolization, can't play a sax worth a shit!!!
I know who you are now!!!!
YOU"RE BILL CLINTON!!!
PLAY GUITAR!!!
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esa
- Diamond Member
- Posts: 1172
- Joined: Tuesday Dec 09, 2003
- Location: I am the Who when you say "Who's there?"...
- Contact:
I'd actually like to hear him critique Jefferson Airplanes' WHITE RABBIT. That line in it about being "Sloppy Dead" would make great coversation.Jimi Hatt wrote:If you want to discuss Bernie Taupin and "The Box", take a crack at something like Solar Prestige a Gammon, where he goes totally Dadaist and crafts a nonsense lyric based purely on the tone of the words. That song is so whacked that it makes I Am The Walrus sound like See Spot Run.
Or..that one song "You're so vain, you probably think this song was about you." (I don't know who sang it or if that's even the right tital) It says about finding clouds in her coffee. Oooh. What could that mean? (I honestly thought the first time she said that it was "Clowns in my coffee". That made more sense?)
I have this unavoidable feeling that he can play one other thing. He had to shut up once to listen to another person rant/ramble/teach this psycho babble of music theory and etc... so... I bet he is a great player of the skin flute. Pinky up style.Jawwge wrote:Funny that no one ever hears your music, just your mouth. I suspect that your mouth is the only thing you know how to play.
One can write music anyway they wish to. If she was writting these lyrics of depression (which is how I take the song to sound) to upbeat music, then so be it. Expression is expression. It was how she felt. It can't be dictated other than that. February started out as a bad bad month. Within less than two weeks, I had 7 near and dear people (family and friends) die on me. Three of them were with in a few hours of eachother. When I got the call about the last person, I sat and giggled. No, I'm not off my coffee. No, it's a sad thing that they are gone. But I had cried so much that week, I couldn't any more. That's the emotion that went through my body. Same thing with her. She's upset, but the music is pretty. Oxymoron? Nope. Just her way of doing things.
If you took every musician that was hurting for some reason or another and tried to group their musical lyrics with what the music tone should be, you'd get a whole bunch of Corey Taylors screaming their hearts out. Or Amy Lee's. (Slipknot/Stone Sour and Evanesence)
Give it up, man. Let people alone with their music. How one decides to express themselves is as uncalculated as picking your blood type. The music inside can be changed to fit the style of song they want, but the groove of their heart wanting to make the music never changes.
Heavy. Soft. Melodic. Broken. Pefectly calculated. Hoping to rhyme ever other sentence. Short snippits. Ballads. Blues, rock, metal, easy listening, country, polka, opera.
We are the creators and the dream makers and we are the children of the melodies in our hearts.
~*~Esa~*~
I'll be the one left standing behind you, looking the other way as you glance back at what you've lost.
I'll be the one left standing behind you, looking the other way as you glance back at what you've lost.
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the herald
- Gold Member
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- Contact:
good example metalrules these dreams is the most rockin headbangin moshpit startin song since we built this city by starship!!!!!!! 
hey lets try it with that song........ chorus: knee deep in the hoopla!!!!! knee deep in the hoooooooooooooooplaaaaa!!!!! wow actually it makes the song better!!!!!!!!!!! 
hey lets try it with that song........ chorus: knee deep in the hoopla!!!!! knee deep in the hoooooooooooooooplaaaaa!!!!! wow actually it makes the song better!!!!!!!!!!!