DO YOU DEMAND ANY EXCELLENCE FROM ANY SIGNED ARTIST?

[Banned]

How do you people Judge art? Do you just judge it on PERSONAL TASTE? If someone like me comes to this forum and talks about CRAFT and punches wholes through peoples flawed songs and can point out FACTS, why am I looked at as wrong?

The death of the music industry is because people TAKE NO PRIDE anymore in what they do. Like the business who FIND WAYS TO CUT CORNERS and use cost effective materials instead of doing it right, the product is not effective as it was in the olden days.

Songwriting and music is much the same. Take guitar players for example. YOU THINK THE GUITAR SOLO is dead because people choose NOT TO SOLO? The reason why the guitar solo is dead, because players spend less time playing than they use to. Electronic software lots of times does it for them. Education is more important in today's standards than it was 30 years ago. Why? Because those musicians spent more time playing, a guitarist like Van Halen the guitar WAS AN EXTENSION of his arm. WIth video games, and other modern day technology, often times people spend less time with instruments. Again, technology often is used in a bad way than good.

The following songs are some of MY FAVORITE SONGS OF ALL TIME ( hence personal taste) However, THE EDUCATED PERSON IN MUSIC THAT I AM allows me to see the LACK OF CRAFT in the songs. If the writer would have spend more time to the lyrics IT WOULDN'T HAVE HURT THE SONG, IT WOULD HAVE MADE IT BETTER. The artist i am referring to is one of my all time favs SADE.

The particular album that I am referring to is STRONGER THAN PRIDE. This album in particular was RUSHED on lyrics. Almost 98% of the albums lyrics are INCOMPLETE.

Again, BECAUSE I LIKE THE SONGS, DOES NOOOOT MAKE IT RIGHT.

I WILL POST 3 SONGS FROM THE CD, EACH SUFFERS FROM THE SAME FLAW

LOVE IS STRONGER THAN PRIDE

I wont pretend that I intend to stop living
I won't pretend I'm good at forgiving
but I can't hate you
although I have tried
mmmmmmmmm

I still really really love you
love is stronger than pride
i still really really love you
mmmmmmmmm

I wont pretend that I intend to stop living
I won't pretend I'm good at forgiving
but I can't hate you
although I have tried
mmmmmmmmm

I still really really love you
love is stronger than pride
i still really really love you
mmmmmmmmm

sitting here wasting my time
would be like
waiting for the sun to rise
it's all too clear things come and go
sitting here waiting for you
would be like waiting for winter
it's gonna be cold
there may even
be snow

i still really really love you
love is stronger than pride
i still really really love you
love is stronger
i still really really love you
love is stronger than pride


LOOK AT THAT LYRIC AGAIN. Do you see how each section comes off as FILLER MATERIAL, just to get the song length. The song STORY WISE SHUTS DOWN AFTER THE FIRST 2 SONG SECTIONS. After that, the same material is stated again and again. Verse 1 says the same thing as verse 2. The STORY NEVER FURTHERS.

First off I can tell you how that song was written. The BAND jammed out and got a groove. Next sade hummed a melody line WITH NO LYRICS YET or PARTIAL LYRICS. As the song was jammed over and over and over, the BIBBLE BABBLE LA LA LA'S were slowly replaced with lyrics. HOwever, 2 factors took over the completion of this lyric. Maybe a combination of both.

1 Record companies that signed Sade wanted X AMOUNT of cds within X AMOUNT OF YEARS. In other words she had to meet a dead line. So the cd was rushed, OFTEN VISIBLE BY THE LACK OF LYRICAL DEVELOPMENT

2 Lack of education hinders her from songwriting efficiency.

NOw often times writers and performers will come up with these LAME ASS EXCUSES THAT YOU PEOPLE JUST GET SUCKERED. For example

"what I was going for is a simple album where lyrically you the listener CAN FILL IN THE BLANKS"

I say BUUUUULLLLSHIT, You the writer couldn't further the song because you were pressured to have it done, or lacked the talent to finish it.

Again LETS LOOK AT ANOTHER SONG OFF THE SAME CD

PARADISE

I'd wash the sand off the shore
give you the world if it was mine
blow you right to my door
feels fine

feels like
you're mine
feels right
so fine
i'm yours
you're mine
like paradise

I'd give the world if it was mine
feels fine

feels like
you're mine
feels right
so fine
like paradise

I'd wash the sand off the shore
give you the world if it was mine
blow you right to my door
feels fine

feels like
you're mine
feels right
so fine
i'm yours
you're mine
like paradise

oooh what a life
oooh what a life
oooh what a life
oooh what a life

i wanna share my life
wanna share my life with you
wanna share my life


i wanna share my life
wanna share my life with you
wanna share my life

ooh what a life
like paradise


LOOK AT THIS LYRIC. The same thing applies as the first lyirc. THE STORY DOES NOT FURTHER. verse 1 says the same thing as verse 2. Too much lyrical repetion, it comes off as FILLER MATERIAL just to make the song longer.

TURN MY BACK ON YOU

to turn my back on you
now would I turn my back on me
to turn my back on you
now would I turn my back on me

no dont say I'm not gonna turn my back on you
you know I'll never let you down
no way
I'll never let you down
I'll never let you down, no way

try to tell you that it's alright
ooo I'm not playing
you are my religion

to turn my back on you
now would I turn my back on me
to turn my back on you
now would I turn my back on me

no dont say I'm not gonna turn my back on you
you know I'll never let you down
no way
I'll never let you down
I'll never let you down, no way

try to tell you that it's alright
ooo I'm not playing
you are my religion

o turn my back on you
now would I turn my back on me
to turn my back on you
now would I turn my back on me


LOOK AT THAT LYRIC. again, WHAT IS WITH ALL THE SAME MATERIAL in the verse? Couldn't the writer have at least FURTHERED THE STORY?


Go look up the every song on that cd at
http://www.todomusica.org/sade/sade5.shtml

You will see EVERY SONG does that FORMULA. Hence WRITING IN THE BOX.

Now what you people will focus on is the fact that is SOLD 4 MILLION COPIES.

Again, SADE IS ONE OF MY ALL TIME FAVORITES, However, PERSONAL TASTE DOOOOOESSSSSS NOOOOOOOT EQUAL WELLCRAFTED

Because I like the songs does NOT make it right. I see LACK OF CRAFT in the songs. Fact is a fact

Again, 2 factors probably contributed to the lack of craft

1 record company rushing them to fulfill the contract
2 lack of education.


You people need to stop being naive about musicians and record companies. Sade will tell you some bibble babble about, " I WANTED TO WRITE SOMETHING SO LACK THEIR OF, SO THE AUDIENCE CAN FILL IN THE BLANKS.


I say, BULLSHIT, YOU WERE RUSHED BY THE RECORD COMPANY AND ALSO LACK IN EDUCATION SO YOU CAN'T WRITE EFFICIENTLY

Pat Benatar in a recent VH1 special even talks about the pressure the record company put on her to get her shit out there. They had to release CdS that she herself, was not pleased with.

[Punkinhead]

How do you people Judge art? Do you just judge it on PERSONAL TASTE? If someone like me comes to this forum and talks about CRAFT and punches wholes through peoples flawed songs and can point out FACTS, why am I looked at as wrong?

no one is sitting here saying you are wrong...you are right on some points...what were saying now, is:

we dont care what is said on this topic anymore...

can this be deleted too? now we have 3, just an idea...

[Banned]

I personally think YOU DON'T SEE IT. You are one of these modern day politically correct people who think EVERYTHING IS GOOD.

This is why people go on american idol show and SOUND SOOOO OUT OF TUNE. Because THEY THINK THEY CAN.

People like you are uneducated and tone deaf, so you don't have the knowledge to tell them, DUDE YOU SUCK


I JUDGE A DAMN MUSICIAN ON HIS (DEDICATION) TO MUSIC

A person who just NOODLES AND HAS THE SO CALLED FUN, ISNT DEDICATED IN MY BOOK

SO YOU CAN TAKE THAT ONE TO THE BANK ASSHOLE

[Punkinhead]

I personally think YOU DON'T SEE IT. You are one of these modern day politically correct people who think EVERYTHING IS GOOD.

This is why people go on american idol show and SOUND SOOOO OUT OF TUNE. Because THEY THINK THEY CAN.

People like you are uneducated and tone deaf, so you don't have the knowledge to tell them, DUDE YOU SUCK


I JUDGE A DAMN MUSICIAN ON HIS (DEDICATION) TO MUSIC

A person who just NOODLES AND HAS THE SO CALLED FUN, ISNT DEDICATED IN MY BOOK

SO YOU CAN TAKE THAT ONE TO THE BANK ASSHOLE

I offer you a challenge dick...go read my previous post in this previous thread...you can take your dedicated ass like this...for the last 5 years, i have practice 5 hours a day during school, 8 hours a day when off time, sometimes as much as 15 hours a day...i have been trained by a berklee grad and a git grad, i have taken lessons from virtuoso troy stetina recently..the 7 years before that, i practiced 3-4 hours a day....there is your dedication and knowledge...cut heads with me...

[Banned]

can you read standard notation?
can you transcribe?
can you place a walking bass line under chord changes?
can you chod solo?
can you play samba, mamba, jazz waltz feel?

can you look at a simple baby big note version song and harmonize it onthe spot?


If you answered no to these, than you don't impress me all that much

WIPE YOUR MOUTH YOUR DROOLIN

[Punkinhead]

can you read standard notation?
can you transcribe?
can you place a walking bass line under chord changes?
can you chod solo?
can you play samba, mamba, jazz waltz feel?

can you look at a simple baby big note version song and harmonize it onthe spot?


If you answered no to these, than you don't impress me all that much

WIPE YOUR MOUTH YOUR DROOLIN

let me pick my droolin mouth up...lets see
im classically trained so theres two yes's...and a walking bass line...yes there too, im a bass instructor and guitar instructor...now samba, mamba, jazz waltz...well, yeah...

[Banned]

Well if that is true, then why are you so hostile to education? being a teacher LIKE YOU SAY YOU ARE, one would think you would not FIGHT edcation but embrass it?

Your posts don't seem to fit the profile to me

Droolin mouth ( not envy, i was referring to ACTING LIKE A BABY)

Babies whine and drool

[Punkinhead]

me being a jimi hendrix fan has nothing to do with me embracing education...dude, im a student as well as a teacher...so i value education...if you look ive said all along theory is good, im glad i know it...im just saying, you cant make someone else see that though. you have to let them think for themselves and see what works for them.

you know the reason some of my friends aren't into God? because a preacher stands everyday at iup shouting religion at us in between each class...hes trying to make them see, he needs to realize that they need to find their own way because hes only creating people to despise him...you see what im saying?

i am a fan of theory but, youve got to realize, its not for everyone, need it or not...

[Banned]

You don't also need to try and punch wholes through my trying. That is your problem.

I am trying to change one dumb ass musician at a time.

I see lack of craft in the SO CALLED PROFESSIONALS songs.

I am trying to convince these people that FAME, FORTUNE, HITS DOES NOT EQUAL CRAFT.

CRAFT is judged on technique, control direction, etc

Good songs will find their way to the top, BUT NOT ALL SONGS AT THE TOP ARE GOOD

Well I would stay and debate longer, HOWEVER, Norah jones who I just adore is on letterman tonight. People watch and learn

[Punkinhead]

you cant change anything with your force it on people attitude...

[The Face in the Face]

metalrules is so smart! he should make a lot of money telling bands what to do! but instead, he is telling us what they should do and not making any money! it's cool though, because we all think you are smart!

[Hal]

Enough of this crap. Let Mr. Know It All go run his mouth and type his arrogance in a chat room somewhere.

[DMFJ03]

*Lays down stress management kit*

BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG BANG

[bassist_25]

Here's a tip; if you want to "teach" people something, don't be condesending by calling them naive. If you are such a great songwriter, why aren't you the next John Hiatt? If you are such a great producer, how come your not being hailed as the next Rick Rubin? Oh wait, that's because you're just a fucking nobody trying to cover up an inferiority complex on a message board. If you get off by rewriting others' songs, then more power to you, but to come off as some enlightened individual sent her to educate us mere mortals on the basics of composition, none of us need your advice. Personally, I wish I had as much free time as you do to write the same asinine arguments. I'm a trained typist and I can't type that much. Isn't it funny though; someone can write so much, but in actuality, say so little.

BTW, I can also read standard notation, transcribe, harmonize on the spot, play a walking bass line, play a samba, or a jazz waltz, but I'm not here to impress you so, don't flatter yourself.

Also, I know many players who think that EVH is a lousy guitarist who is nothing but tapping gimmicks.

[lonewolf]

metalrules, you still haven't answered my question. What do you do for a living?

[songsmith]

I can do all the aforementioned fun things, walking bass lines are second nature in the blues and country, chord soloing is pretty much the only thing I CAN do solo-wise, waltz-time is child's play, and I can harmonize with the frickin' garbage disposal,if needed, in any style from Beach-Boys to High Lonesome to Barbershop to Gregorian. I must admit, though, that I am educated. I had a drum lesson once when I was 9 or 10. They taught me how to hold the drumsticks traditionally. (I play matched grip, when I play.) How the hell did I learn all this? Let me answer that with a question... How do you get to Carnegie Hall?------>JMS

[lonewolf]

To answer your post.

Nobody should expect excellence from anyone but themselves or those who work for(with) them.

To put that in context, if you pay $5 cover to see a band, they are playing for you. If you hire a manager to get exposure, they are working for you.

Last time I looked, Britney Spears was not working for you.

[Banned]

NO but what she did was take someone elses spot in getting signed.

Are you aware that most big record companies only sign 30 artist a year. Only 10 are heavily promoted.

When someone like Spears gets a record deal and has no talent to sing live, and the fact that her songs are totally cliche fluff, it JUST RUINED SOMEONE ELSES CHANCES.

It is like football. Your team is one game away from the superbowl. The team that already made the superbowl your team has beaten before and matches up in favor of your team. The team your team is now facing is this soiler underdog. however your team loses by just a point. The team that goes on then GETS SLAUGHTERED 41 TO 10 to the other team in the superbowl. This team just ruined your chances because if your team would have gotten their they could have easily slaughtered the other team , winning the superbowl. Brit spears is that no talented team that JUST SPOILED your team from going.

[Ron]

Funny metalrules... Now your applying close-minded thinking to football.

I'll try and keep this simple for you...
- Team A beats team B by 30 points.
- Team B beats team C by 30 points.
- This does NOT mean that Team A can beat Team C.

Your applying simple logic to a game that has so many complexities that it defies countless hours of the closest analysis by coaches, bookies, etc.

Remember the quote... "On any Given Sunday"? Jeez.
Or how about this one?... "Nobody likes a Critic".

[daveb]

Personal taste is ABSOLUTELY the only way to judge art. It's art after all, not quantem physics. There is no wrong way to create art. Only different points of view. Metalrules, I applaud your dedication to your art. Your credentials are outstanding. I hope that along with all of your technical skill and study of theory, that you have also studied groove and soul. Swagger and grit. There are many forms of art. If you study the poetry of ee Cummings you'll see incorrect punctuation and made up words. Caps where there should be lower case and visa versa. John Steinbeck used simple words and very basic sentance structure yet his works were powerful. When I'm standing in an art museum, I don't care if the painter was formally schooled or not. I don't care if he used a brush or if he was finger painting. It is how the art affects your soul. Your soul doesn't know or care how popular or how many copies of something has sold. And your soul doesn't ever say " I could do that better than him". Music is perhaps the most subjective art form, simply because it is so popular. But it moves all of us at our very core. Everyone on these forums that is all horked off at you is because you're being harsh towards the thing we love. When you are rough on BB King, you are rough on the people that love him and that are transended by his music. The very simplicity that you loathe, is exactly what makes him special to so many fans. His playing is humble ....just like him. You can't expect us to feel better that you say we are all better than BB King. YOU CAN'T be better than him or EVH or Steve Via. They are individuals. No one can be better than an individual. You can't out Steve Via Steve Via right? Lyrics are also very subjective. What is filler to you metalrules, may be the most important statement to someone else. Peoples lives are changed everyday by the lyrics to songs. I have never really cared who was more popular than who when I am listening to the radio. Popularity is a curse on creative people everywhere. It breeds competition and contempt. I was signed to a label in the early 90's. Our songs were about love and self fulfillment and reaching a higher place. The most popular song at the time was "I'm too Sexy " by Right said Fred. That drove me insane. I thought there was an injustice in the universe. I hated people that liked that song. Here our band was trying to change the world and people just wanted to to listen to what I thought was total shit. Then I realized that people just liked that song better than any one of ours. Did that mean that I'm too Sexy was better than "Eve of Destruction". No It just meant that more people had a chance to hear it. Right Said Fred had millions of major label dollars behind it. We had a couple of thousand bucks that we scrounged up to promote our CD. That is NOT injustice . That is just the way it goes. If we had a million major label dollars behind us, people may have still liked Right Said Fred better. That would not have been injustice either. That would have been just the way it goes. Good songs make it or they don't . Bad songs make it or they don't. The only difference is who thought they were good or not. And if you were trained at Berkley or just some dude like me that plays from the gut, it feels the same when you have a good show or a bad one. Thanks for letting me vent my blowhole.

[Ron]

Nice post daveb, cool signature too.

[Banned]

NO you SHOULD, NEVER EVER JUDGE ART ON PERSONAL TASTE. YOu could be the type of person that likes shit.

You are missing the point. No one says YOU CANT USE SIMPLE LANGUAGE.

Here is an example. The song will be about an AMISH GUY and his life

OPENING FIRST VERSE OF EXAMPLE 1

hey old jakey, throw the horse over some hay
and outten those lights so I don't have to go out of my way
milk those cows nah
before the sun goes down


Opening FIRST VERSE OF EXAMPLE 2

Look Jake, at those horses running ostentatiously over there
Their legs move with commanding grace
Their mane swirling like rope in whirling wind
the open range is their stomping place


The FIRST EXAMPLE is BETTER CRAFTED THAN THE 2ND. Its cheap , uneducated linguistics IS PERFECT for the AMISH SONG. The 2nd example is not geared towards ACCURACY OF CHARACTER.

I don't know of any amish people who would talk like the 2nd example. Every amish I know would talk like the first.

HENCE, simple and uneducated DOES NOT MEAN LACK OF CRAFT

This is why you guys fail to see CONCEPTS AND IDEAS. You are not seeing the JUSTIFYING FACTOR.

The simple, dumb, uneducated linguistics of the first example IS BETTER GEARED AND BETTER CRAFTED TOWARDS a song about amish. Because its more accurate in the way they talk. HENCE, JUSTIYING REASON

[daveb]

Well , it's painfully obvious that I, indeed did miss the point. Now, on top of that, I may be a shit-liker and didn't even know it. Alas, I'm off to fill my auditory glands with pure fecal matter. I hope to come around to metalrules way of thinking. But until then, I'll have corn on my Q-tip and a smile on my face.

[Ron]

metalrules, you still haven't answered my question. What do you do for a living?

Now we know... "Amish Songwriter".