Understanding your instrument part 2

[lonewolf]

Metalrules. Just curious. What do you do for a living?

[songsmith]

Hello metalrules, my good buddy! If you were truly EDUCATED, unlike myself who scratches in the ground for tidbits, you would have known that:

First, even with permission, posting song lyrics in a public forum can constitute PUBLICATION of same. You have legally published someone else's song, and they have a right to sue for damages, because publishing companies generally reserve the right of initial publishing... they don't want product that's already been released. Balistic may or may not prosecute this action, it would be up to them, nevertheless, it's done. (How could someone so uneducated as myself possibly know that? Oh yeah, experience. The ultimate professor.)

In addition, your rewrites, while certainly clarifying to what you felt was the point of the song, were strictly bargain-basement. The ABAB rhyme scheme is based in folk music in use for about a thousand years, and needs little teaching due to it's simplicity. It's such a staple of Western Music that even nursery rhymes use it most often. My very first song had an AAAABBA rhyme scheme, with resolution on the final line. I was 8 years old when I wrote it.
Beyond that, if you posted rewrites of MY songs, I wouldn't resolve the problem in an internet forum.
You are free to think and act however you like, but this forum is for musicians to share ideas and stay open, not to pontificate. I believe it was the great philosopher Fez, who said, "I said good day!"------>JMS

[wake up drumming]

The Beatles sucked, Jimi sucked, Slayer sucked, Nirvana sucked, Anthrax sucked, blah, blah, blah! Why did I even waste the time to come back here? What a joke! Hey Metal Rules please come out to a WAKE UP SCREAMING show. You can give a listen, tell us all what we're doing wrong, and how you would do it better, and then we'll gladly beat the shit out of you!

[mad hatter]

Metalrules,
No ifs, ands or buts about it, you are a true piece of shit. No one cares what you think of Sheryl Crow and Kid Rock's song. You are obviously not ever going to write any songs that people are going to give a shit about. Every single post of yours has practically said the same thing, hence "broken record."

"There's no list of rules and regulations, there's a right way and a wrong way." Dude you're an idiot without an iota of respect from anyone on this board. Seriously, post your id so we can know who we are not respecting.

Come to a VERTIGO show. We'll beat the shit out of you too!

[ToonaRockGuy]

hehehehhh...metalrules, you better be careful in your rockpage writing style...people might figure out who you are....

WELL CRAFTED DOOOES NOOOOOT EQUAL PERSONAL TASTE.

That clearly is soooooooo unbuyable and not an accurate description of what would go on.

The lyric is a complete disaster. NO AMOUNT OF EXCUUUUUSES LIKE BY THE BOOK, will justify that piece of crap work .

Hmmm....the last person here at Rockpage who wrote like that...strrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrretching out words was...

Say it with me, Rockpage Faithful...

AJA, THE DISCOURAGED SINGER!!!!

All the signs are there...the sttttrrrrrrrreeeeeetched out words, and mostly, the saying the same thing over and over and over and over again. Damn, welcome back, Aja, not good to see ya again!

[Jim Price]

Actually, ToonaRockGuy, while there might be a connection to Aja (R.I.P.), I think the following link may expose Metalrules' identity:

www.geocities.com/grimessongwritingboard

Metalrules posted this link a month or two ago here on Rockpage. As you will see when you visit the link, lyric dissection and overhauls are apparently his specialty...

[lonewolf]

Not to get off the subject or anything, but for electric guitar, "understanding your instrument" means understanding your rig.

A Strat thru a Crate stack is a different instrument from

a Strat thru a Twin Reverb which is a different instrument from

a Strat thru a Roland Jazz Chorus.

An Em7b5 thru the Crate on a gain of 11 isn't gonna sound much different than Pete Townsend smashing one of his guitars. But drop the D and hit a power chord and you will get some cool thunderous sound.

By the same token if you drop the D and hit a power chord on the Jazz Chorus, you probably wouldn't get very excited. But run thru a circle of 7ths and you will get some real nice response.

I also thought it might be a good idea to remind some that this is the ROCK page. Not the JazzPage and certainly not the hiphop page.

[Skate Toad]

Hey Jim thanks for letting us know who. But just a warning that site is a POP UP HELL! So be warned. My pour pop up killer went spastic and bogged down my computer for 15 min. I guess i should of guessed that site would be just as annoying as this subject!

[lonewolf]

Hey Jim thanks for letting us know who. But just a warning that site is a POP UP HELL! So be warned. My pour pop up killer went spastic and bogged down my computer for 15 min. I guess i should of guessed that site would be just as annoying as this subject!

When he says pop up hell....he really means POP UP HELL! It just about the worst I've seen.

[mad hatter]

I'm glad I have a pop-up zapper.

[songsmith]

EXCELLENT point, lonewolf. Your mileage may vary. Everyone's mileage may vary. It's music... art. It's beyond subjective.

At any rate, that Kid Rock song more than lived up to it's hype. Myself, I thought the lyric was kinda lame for my taste... too twisty and the rhymes were a bit easy. However, the song played ad nauseum on country, adult contemporary, Top 40 and even rock radio, as well as MTV, VH-1, and CMT. I should be such a poor songwriter. It was popular because people liked it... art for consumption, not for study.---->JMS

[Punkinhead]

The Beatles sucked, Jimi sucked, Slayer sucked, Nirvana sucked, Anthrax sucked, blah, blah, blah! Why did I even waste the time to come back here? What a joke! Hey Metal Rules please come out to a WAKE UP SCREAMING show. You can give a listen, tell us all what we're doing wrong, and how you would do it better, and then we'll gladly beat the shit out of you!

Yes, or come to a Martrydom show...we'll take your advice, may/may not smack you upside your head but, rest assured the song we would next write about the sacrificial lamb of stupidity would be written

[Banned]

Again, I am not missing WHAT THE SONG IS ABOUT, however, YOU GUYS ARE MISSING THE POINT.

Any fool can get what sheryl crow's song is about. There is nothing deep and complex about it. However, IT IS AN UNBUYABLE STORY.

1. Even though the 2 characters in the story are extremely selfish and sleep around, NONE OF THEM IN REAL LIFE would tell the other. PERIOD, PERIOD, PERIOD. It is a far fetched story. In real life, they would do it behind each others backs. Period ( YOU KNOW THIS TO BE TRUE, DONT ARGUE ABOUT IT)

2. FACT: there is a LYRICAL TIME FRAME PROBLEM. PERIOD, PERIOD, PERIOD

WHen someone calls his girlfriend up in the middle of the night and says" HEY BABY, I'M HAVING SEX WITH ANOTHER GIRL, BUT I WAS HAVING PROBLEMS GOING THROUGH WITH IT, SO I PUT YOU PICTURE AWAY, NOW I CAN DO IT"

( THE RESPONSE TO THAT STATEMENT IS VERY IMPORTANT)

The person responding would NOT SAY this" SOMETHING AINT RIGHT, I CAN HEAR IT IN YOUR FRIENDS VOICE, THAT YOU ARE UP TO SOMETHING, I CAN'T TELL WHAT IT IS, BUT I KNOW SOMETHING IS UP"

THAT MY FRIENDS IS A (LYRICAL) TIME FRAME PROBLEM

The reason being is because AT THAT POINT, she ALREADY KNOWS what is happening. It is highly not possible for her to question him of what is going on. SHE ALREADY KNOWS HE TOOOOOLD HER

The problem with you people is YOU JUST SETTLE FOR GETTING THE POINT ACROSS, YOU DONT (EXECUTE ACCURATELY)


(I HAVE A HOME WORK ASSIGNMENT FOR ALL OF YOU)

The home work assignment is this: LOOK UP THE SHERYL CROW AND KID ROCK LYRICS CALLED ( PICTURE)

1. I want you to FLIP FLOP the first verse with the 2nd verse. In other words SHERYL CROWS 2ND VERSE ( MAKE IT THE FIRST VERSE) and Kid rocks first verse (MAKE IT THE 2ND)

As you will see THIS IS A QUICK FIX TO THE TIME FRAME PROBLEM ( HENCE THE IMPORTANCE OF REWRITING)

This will show you THE SEQUENCE OF EVENTS Now make better sense. You will see now

1 sheryl questions " WHAT IS GOING ON, I HEAR SOMETHING IN YOUR FRIENDS VOICES THAT LEAVE ME TO BELIEVE SOMETHING IS GOING ON OVER THERE"

2 Now kid rock CONFESSES " BABY I AM SLEEPING AROUND ON YOU, BUT I HAD TO PUT YOUR PICTURE AWAY TO GO THROUGH WITH IT"


Now AT LEAST THE LYRICAL TIME FRAME PROBLEM is fixed. HOWEVER the story is still UNBUYABLE yet, simply because the character needs to LIE AND TRY AND GET OUT OF THE SUSPICION OF SHERYL.

[songsmith]

.... And in that old song,"I Know An Old Lady Who Swallowed A Fly," she couldn't have possibly ingested all those animals in one sitting, and even if she did, she would have likely died well before getting to the horse.
Try rec.music.makers.songwriting in Usenet. I used to follow that group for the first few years of it's existence. It lead to a writer's block I'm still getting past... people spouting rules and regulations which are supposed to "help" with songs. It mostly turned out to be anal-retentive nobodies telling other nobodies that they were nobodies, and would likely remain to be nobodies. Don't EVER assume I don't know the rules. The only rules that REALLY matter for good art are as follows:

1) F*CK THE RULES.

2) See Rule #1 ----------->JMS

[huntzen]

I don't think anyone implied that this was the "hip hop" or "jazz" page .I only replied to the below the belt insults that were posted.I don't care for much disco or hip hop myself.....and i all but hate country,but I "RESPECT" it cause Roy Clark is one bad moe foe.

My point is this,how can you dis a whole era or genre for that matter and maintain that you're open minded? So many contradictions..........

[oobie]

i think playing music in most eyes is all about having fun at what your doing for yourself, and for whomever you play it for, if you even want to play it for anybody else. it seems like that is the point that is going missed here by metalrules. sure you may limit yourself by not knowing alot of theory or any at all(i know i limit myself), but if you yourself can pick up a guitar play your song or somebody elses song to your ears delight and are having a blast at it. BAM your having fun! thats what music does for me! sure i like to be critical when i go to a concert and i try to pick at some stuff that the band or musician suck at (at the time)but thats because they are making lots of money doing what they love and i'm jealous, because i gotta get up and work forty hours a week, you know what i mean? i play for the rudys, i wouldn't play if i wasn't having fun, our songs don't have much meaning behind them and the lyrics quite frankly are off the wall in some of them but you know what, they means alot to us and we have a f@#$ing blast every time we play whether it be at practice or a show. as for writing lyrics to songs you can't go by a standard or a method, at least thats what i think, because you are limiting yourself to the ART of writing the lyrics. i mean look at some of the lyrics people have written for songs, it amazing, it all has to fit YOUR vibe to your song or what YOU want to make of it. right? not what some critic wants? its all about you and your band doing what you want to do not what somebody or some book wants you to do, right? sure i love to take advice from other musicans about music like them telling me we should try this in that song but if i or the band don't like it and it makes that song no more fun, f@#$ it, its going back to the way it was, there are many very good points in here but if your a musician out to have a good time i would say to stay away from this thread because it makes my heart weap, that some people take music so seriously to pull the fun out of it for some people. don't get me wrong if you wanna be techincal and that is fun for you i am damn happy for you but you shouldn't tell other people they can't be good musician without know the in's and out's, thats my $.2

[bassist_25]

I'm sure everyone notices that my avatar is a picture of Brian, the dog from the cartoon, Family Guy. He speaks very eloquentley, reads the newspaper, and drinks martinis. But I'm going to stop watching Family Guy because a talking dog is so UNBUYABLE. I mean, c'mon, a talking dog; that's not realistic. And let's not forget Pulp Fiction, I mean, c'mon, Vincent gets killed by Butch in the middle of the film, but we see him walk out of the dinner at the end of the movie. That's a time frame problem.

[DMFJ03]

Does that mean that one eyed, purpled hair women, like on Futurama, don't exsist?

Say it isn't so! ::Falls to knees and sobs::

[songsmith]

Family Guy was brilliant, man. Far and away the most subversive thing on television, ever, but nobody noticed because it was a cartoon. Brian's hilarious, but Stewie killed me every time. "Does anybody smell Astroglide?" Oh, my ever-lovin' God! Or a baby saying, "Why don't we just spark up a doobie and watch porno!" Plus Kiss guest-starred. Can't beat that.------>JMS

[Banned]

First off PULP FICTION does not have a time frame problem. Simply because the story STARTS OFF AT A CERTAIN POINT.

it moves in a direction that says HOW DID IT PROGRESS TO THAT POINT.

It was much like STAR WARS starting with episode 4, 5, 6 and then showing the public the prequals. 1,2,3

THAT IS NOT A TIME FRAME PROBLEM. The same applies for pulp fiction, THAT IS NOT A TIME FRAME PROBLEM.


The problem with you people is YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR SONGWRITING. Remember ANYTHING CREATED IS ART, BUT ART HAS VALUE AND WORTH IN MEANING. THERE IS JUDGEMENTS PLACED ON IT BY THE USE OF TECHINQUE, DIRECTION, CONTROL

LETS SEE, I AM JUST HAVING FUN WITH THIS LYRIC

caught on the wind of turbulent lies
she teaches and guides so my life flies
i watched the radient light of the sun
only to have my life come undone


HAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHH

ALL I DID WAS STRING PERFECT RHYMES TOGETHER.

To you people EVERYTHING IS GOOD. All someone has to say is I wrote this one with MOUNDS OF COCAINE ON THE KEY BOARD and you people buy into it.

This opening verse shows, NO CONTROL, NO DIRECTION. I should know I wrote it off the top of my head. So don't sit there and try to attach some deep philosophical meaning to it. IT IS BIBBLE BABBLE STRUNG TOGETHER BY PERFECT RHYMES.

Learn the craft of songwriting my naive ignorant friends

[Ronnyd]

I will not beat you up Metal Rules but I think all of us could get you to star in my latest facial film.
P.S. shut the f--- up!

[Big Jim]

Enough, already!!

Metalrules has made many, many points. We have read them, we understand them, they may have value to some of us in pursuit of improvement. We may understand, but perhaps don't necessarilly agree. I think most everyone would agree that one never stops learning. But we don't need Metalrules to "teach" us. Let's end it.

Or, what IS the reasoning behind it all? Is the goal that we are all supposed to become discouraged and quit playing/writing, because we're "all worthless and weak"? Not a chance. Should Rockpage go away because we are using it for worthless/trivial purposes? No way.

I would like Metalrules to accept that those of us paying attention DO understand what he (or she) is saying. And now it's time for Metalrules to move on. Find another message board, or start your own. I've wasted enough time reading this thread.

And yeah, I'm old, bald, fat, and stupid, (just kidding about the stupid part), but I'm gonna keep playing my guitar. And Rockpage is AWESOME!! I've made friends, learned some technical stuff, bought & sold some stuff, caught bands at their shows, etc. Give me a break!!

Big Jim

[Banned]

No big Jim, I don't think you do get it. I don't think anyone gets it.

YOU PEOPLE HAVE STOPPED LEARNING. You talk a good talk like, "oh one never stops learning"

I SAY BULLSHIT. You guys have stopped learning and you could care less about learning.

[Jim Price]

I don't think YOU get it, Metalrules...The readers of this board know the knowledge is there to be learned...And if they so choose to learn it, they will. If they aren't interested in learning it, guess what? THEY DON'T HAVE TO!

You getting on here and jamming it down everyone's throats only makes you look pompous. Any credibility points you may have scored by touting the virtues of learning theory, reading and writing music, lyrics, etc. went out the window when you started on these repetitive, idiotic nitpick rants about how to rewrite everybody's songs.

You live in an ideal world. Your educated mind envisions these "perfect songs," with everything structurally, grammatically and otherwise correct. Everything by the rules, as dictated by all that theory and technique you learned at Berklee. Everybody must create music by the laws of Music Theory, or it just isn't acceptable music!

This is the real world. People improvise. People deviate from the rules. People paint outside the lines. And guess what? People write, compose and perform outside the parameters of accepted music theory. That's what keeps rock'n'roll interesting. Musicians throw out the rulebook, and in the process come up with something fresh and compelling. Is it "perfect" music? No. Does it have to be? No!

These threads remind me of that old Star Trek episode where the damaged Earth probe encounters the Enterprise, and - seeking perfect beings - decides that since all the human occupants of the Enterprise are "faulty," they must be destroyed. Captain Kirk defeats the probe by convincing it that it made an error, and was itself no longer perfect.

You've contradicted yourself by stating earlier that there are no rules and regulations in music; yet you have filibustered the readers of this board to LEARN! LEARN! LEARN! and follow all these guidelines of music theory to create music. You said there were no rules and regulations. But you're dictating rules and regulations to everybody on how to write songs!

You are faulty! Faulty! FAULTY!

Now step into the universe outside the Starship Rockpage, and SELF DESTRUCT!!!