Understanding your instrument part 2

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

It is funny you should say Hendrix was a student of the instrument. I don't think he was.

When someone is passionate about cars they delve into everything about a car. They understand everything about cars. They can carry hours and hours of conversation on anything from transmissions, engines, etc. Most can fix any problem a car has. They are regular grease monkeys.

Same goes for anything in life. A student astronomer knows tons and tons about stars and planets. A doctor goes to school and knows about medicines and medical procedures, and can diagnose symptoms of illness.

YET, when it comes to music, most guitar players know nothing. They are play by ear, tab readers. Does one really love the instrument when he finds no pleasure in exploring the guitar AND ALL THAT GOES WITH IT. That means notes, theory, technique, etc

Vai and satch said Hendrix was the best guitar player ever because he was their hero. However, I am not sure if Vai or Satch would trade their knowledge AND TALENT of guitarplaying for hendrix style of guitar playing.

Again being impressionable has everything to do with it. Vai and satch say that machine gun was the greatest performance ever, BECAUSE THEY IDOLIZED HIM AND AT THAT MOMENT, THEY WANTED TO BE HENDRIX.

I am not sure you can call anyone great who DOESNT GET ALL THEY CAN OUT OF THE GUITAR.

Chet Akins one can say could be one of the greatest guitar players ever, the same goes for Joe Pass. They could read as well as improvise. They could play in many different styles.

Hendrix was NOT A CLEAN PLAYER. He hid behind tons and tons of distortion and was OUT OF TUNE quite often. He did not even use much PICKING AT ALL. Much of his playing consisted of HAMMER ON'S AND PULL OFF'S , all this while hiding behind tons of distortion.

The very thing you think is great about hendrix is not really THE GUITAR. Whammy bar gimmicks are not really THE GUITAR. Lion roars, machine guns, a horse, etc are neat at first but after A FEW MINUTES GETS OLD.

That is why Hendrix ONLY appeals to guitar players. Once you get past the guitar player crowd, hendrix is look at like a bunch of noise. I can say this because HENDRIX IS DEAD TO THE AVERAGE MUSIC LISTENER. Hendrix is only remembered by the guitar players. You ask any 20 year old and younger person and 95 percent will tell you HENDRIX WHO? Even people like my grandma who is 79 years old NEVER HEARD of jimi hendrix and she would have been 40 around when hendrix was at his prime. Which tells me hendrix only appeal to the guitar metal heads of the 60s Because AVERAGE AMERICA who was into the beatles never like hendrix.

Hendrix is god to you because YOU LIKE HIM. You are judging his godliness on your PERSONAL TASTE of him. What you are failing to realize is TECHNIQUE. Other than whammy bar antics, what is so great about his technique.

If Jimi was alive in the 80s he wouldn't of expanded his playing ability to be able to do what van Halen was doing. Simply because he was uneducated and showed no desire to improve in his craft. Many guitar players who are uneducated NEVER CHANGE THEIR STYLE or EXPAND THEIR KNOWLEDGE.

If you want my opinion about the greatest ROCK guitar solo performance i have ever heard. IT WAS VAN HALEN LIVE WITHOUT A NET.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

Jimi Hatt wrote:To me, Hendrix goes beyond technique. He was a devoted student of the instrument, for sure, and a renowned sideman before he achieved fame on his own. But what really sets him apart for me is that he was such an UNINHIBITED musician. He unleashed the full force of his personality directly through his instrument, completely unfiltered. It's Primal Scream Therapy on guitar.

I think this is the best response in this on going debate about Hendrix. To me, it's not a matter of how clean Hendrix's technique was or how well versed he was in harmonic theory, Hendrix moves me and that's all there is to it. As a bassist, I think one of the most overrated players to ever pick up the instrument would be Les Claypool. I think he has sloppy technique, his slap playing is very mediocre, and his tone is gawd awful. Compared to cats like Stanley Clarke, Rocco Prestia, and Adam Nitti, Claypool's a total hack. But I still listen to Primus and respect Les Claypool for making music that I enjoy. If some kid who's never heard of Jaco Pastorious, worships Claypool instead, I'm cool with it. I just hope that he one day discovers Mr. Pastorious' music so he can understand where Les came from. The same with Vai, Satch, Malmsteen, Tafoya, and Angelo. Hendrix laid the blue print for them to build upon. Hendrix was an innovator no matter how you look at it. And I disagree with Hendrix only being able to play Rock. Hendrix was starting to get into Jazz as he evolved in his music. He even formed a Fusion band called "Sky Church". It didn't really ever get off the ground, but Hendrix was thinking beyond Rock music.

I don't know; I buy music cause it moves me. I like Hendrix and I like Segovia. I enjoy the playing of both. Obviously, Segovia's technique blows Hendrix's out of the water, but it doesn't mean his music is worth more to me.

HurricaneBob · Post by **HurricaneBob** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

Sounds like someone here has nightmares about Jimi Hendrix, its ok man! He's dead! After talking with every musician on this board we have all agreed to stop playing all off Jimi's music live, ive trashed all his albums and tapes and also called every radio station in america and they have also agreed to quit playing his music. Phew! sleep well my child, the Jimi monster is not under your bed anymore......

Through the purple haze we see Joe grab his gun and chase the Foxy Lady......MUHAHAHAA!

Just kidding!....Pepsi also trashed their commercial.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

Maybe you need to ask those 20 year old girls at the office who Satriani is. Or Vai. Or Chet Atkins, Merle Travis, Scotty Moore, Django Reinhart, Yngwie Malmsteen, Micheal Schenker, Angus Young, Roy Nichols, or Ry Cooder.

Now ask them who plays guitar for Blink 182. Sum 41. Any group that has numbers in their name.

It's apples and oranges.

------------>JMS

wake up drumming · Post by **wake up drumming** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

I really can't believe this guy! (metal rules). Your ego is so huge you don't even reconize it! I can't even stand to read any more of your shit. Does it kill you to even acknowledge Jim's ability or his influence on modern day guitar? IF you truly believe that he's had no impact on the music world then you're flat out BLIND! (no matter how educated you think you are!)

And what a cop-out even bringing up Britney or Madonna! Are you just pissed off that you're Mr. All Knowing on guitar and still haven't made it out of your garage!?? Even if you have, you will never reach Jimi status...EVER!

Ask those same teenage girls who Steve Vai is and I bet they don't know that either, ask your gram who Pet Townsend played for! C'mon, that's all you got!?

I agree with Punkinhead, this thread is bullshit! SORRY RON, YOU KNOW I NEVER GET ON HERE AND ATTACK PEOPLE but Metalrules: YOU ARE AN EGOTISTICAL ASSHOLE!! ALL THE GUITAR THEORY IN THE WORLD WON'T EVER CHANGE THAT!!!!

mad hatter · Post by **mad hatter** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

I think this "metalrules" guy just wants to argue. He's an obvious dickhead and sounds like a broken record. I'm willing to bet he doesn't even know half of what he's talking about. I bet you don't have many friends, do ya buddy? Here's an idea for you, put down the "100 reasons why Hendrix wasn't the best guitar player" article, and turn the page in this music theory book you're reciting from and GET A LIFE. Here's another idea for you, start studying up on how NOT to be an annoying know-it-all bastard.

Post by **Ron** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

Another total hack is that Picasso guy. He couldn't even paint people's noses on the right part of their face or blend colors correctly. It's all blocky looking. I've seen crayon drawings by 5 year olds that are more anatomically correct. I studied art for 20 years and can get that nose on the right side, every time. And don't get me started on Monet... hell you have to stand 10 feet away to figure out what the subjects of his paintings are. Now Escher... he was a genius.

Just making a point.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

The truth of the matter is I am not sure hendrix has any influence on todays guitar players, since no one even solos in todays music scene. Practically all the metal bands in todays scene have no guitar solos in their songs. So again, i am not sure what influence he has on todays music.

As for teenage girls knowing steve vai , your right they dont, or pete townshend. So my point are again right. No one cares about guitar solos or wild guitar playing OTHER THAN GUITAR PLAYERS

That is why steve vai had to start his own record label company called FAVORED NATIONS. Because no record company was interested in signing him.

Record companies look for what is in and what sells, and right now guitar solo cds only appeal to a small crowd, US GUITAR PLAYERS.

The point that i am trying to make to you people is, THESE SO CALLED STARS BREATHE THE SAME AIR WE DO. You are so impressionable that you see these guys as LARGER THAN LIFE

Do you want to know the truth about these players, MOST DON'T SOUND THAT GOOD LIVE. Why? Because many of them are PUNCHING IN AND OUT THE GUITAR SOLOS during the recording process.

Jason Baker CAN'T PLAY AIR LIVE. What he did was record each voicing at a tempo of like 40, and then speeded the tape up to get the faster version.

Eddie Van Halen punched in and out every guitar solo 5150, and he only played like 2 bars before the next punch in punch out

When I go to see these guys live they muffle their way through their own guitar solos. I saw Lynch Mob in concert and George Lynch played like shit.

Hell you even have people like ADRIAN VANDENBURG FAKING A BOWED GUITAR SOLO on " STILL OF THE NIGHT"

Talk to any sound engineer and producer and they will tell you many of these bands take for ever to record because they are out of time or out of tune. Hell it took
Motley crue for EVER TO RECORD doctor feel good. The engineer said those guys kept playing out of time

Most of you here don't realize this but probably HALF OF YOU PEOPLE here are probably better than many of the so called famous guitar heros.

That is the point I am trying to make

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

No one cares about guitar solos or wild guitar playing OTHER THAN GUITAR PLAYERS

Sad but true.

mad hatter · Post by **mad hatter** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

Just for argument sake, let's say that you knew every bit of music theory there is to know. It still might take you a week to record a guitar solo, so where are you going with this thread? First you're shoving theory down our throats, now you're telling us who sucks live and who takes a year to record an album. WHO CARES?!

Now I'll tell you who doesn't suck live, Strung Out (I don't know or care how much theory they know). Larger than life? Oh Yeah.

Post by **Jim Price** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

I've been holding my tongue on this thread, but since it seems to have drifted from the original discussion of the merits of music theory into arguments about the impact of Jimi Hendrix, I'll attempt to inject some semblance of sanity back into the discussion.

First, I think that not just in music, but in ANY endeavor you pursue in life, you should try to learn everything you can. That applies to music, career, golf, fishing, hunting, ANYTHING! The more you learn, the wider the foundation of knowledge you have to tap into when the need arises. Sure, you may never need to apply theory or the ability to read or write music to what you do; but it can't hurt to have that knowledge in your arsenal in case a situation arises where you can use it. Learn all that you can; use what you need. Just don't become a prisoner to your knowledge, and don't be afraid to go outside the lines.

Just last week, I was reviewing the new Ian Anderson (Jethro Tull) solo album, Rupi's Dance (you can check out the review in "JP's Corner," shameless plug). Ian Anderson is a self-taught flute player, who never took any organized training on that instrument. One of the songs on Rupi's Dance, "Raft of Penguins," is about how Ian often feels awkward when performing alongside an actual orchestral or symphonic group - to quote his album liner notes about the song: "Who is the more terrified in such encounters? Me or them? I play a bit out of tune, out of time and read not a not a note of those Dead Sea Scrolls written so carefully upon the stave of life. But when the wind gets up and the music stand blows over, I can busk it with the best of them. It's all in the head, you see. And in the heart. And that improvisational adventure remains a mystery to many a first fiddler and his tribe."

Regarding the Jimi Hendrix debate; just as music historians and scholars have debated the merits and historical impact of various composers throughout history, there will continue to be music debates on who the most influential names in rock history have been, whether their perceived impact is over- or under-rated, etc. Each individual has his/her own feelings about Jimi, his influence and abilities. I don't think this debate on Rockpage will change how history views Jimi Hendrix and his impact. He was the man with the guitar at that right time in history, done deal.

If Jimi would only have selected that Coca Cola and the accordion instead of the Pepsi and the guitar (as the Pepsi TV ad would have us believe), I might have been inspired to become the Eddie Van Halen of the squeezebox...sigh.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

Truthfully, I don't think metalrules is a dumb person, or even has dumb ideas. He's right, I think, but only to a point. Guitar solo's have become blase' to the youthful American kid, maybe because at one time EVERY song had an over-the-top lead break right after the second chorus. I see his point. However it takes big ol' brass gonads to make a point like he has. It was just a poor example, which is something I'm prone to do myself. Kinda like yelling "Theater!" in a crowded firehouse.

------>JMS

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

songsmith wrote:Truthfully, I don't think metalrules is a dumb person, or even has dumb ideas. He's right, I think, but only to a point. Guitar solo's have become blase' to the youthful American kid,

I agree to a point as well but, im putting polls up on all message boards im on to see who really knows who jimi hendrix is....i go on all boards with younger people mostly so well find out....

and solos are not dead....you have to listen to the new metal that is coming out....im not talking nu-metal like disturbed and linkin park....im talking the balls to the wall shit that is out now like Shadows Fall, Arch Enemy, the Crown, Nevermore....these guys can rip, and ive seen them all live, they do it then too (with the exception of the second time i saw Shadows Fall at laga on headbangers ball tour, danais must've been drunk, he sucked that night but, killed at ozzfest so im guessing so, that and i saw him chugging beers offstage for the first two bands, for about 75 minutes straight)....alot of younger people are into these bands. not the masses like in the 80's but, you go to laga for shadows fall and there is a full house, all younger people...what can laga hold, at least 1500 people, maybe more, so its not dead, popular music is just being forced down people's throats that just lacks talent for some reason

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Thursday Feb 19, 2004

Punkinhead, good call on the Nevermore. I have Dreaming Neon Black and Jeff Loomis and Tim Calvert smoke throughout the whole thing. Great band. Do you like Iced Earth?

April · Post by **April** » Thursday Feb 19, 2004

Ron wrote:

Another total hack is that Picasso guy. He couldn't even paint people's noses on the right part of their face or blend colors correctly. It's all blocky looking. I've seen crayon drawings by 5 year olds that are more anatomically correct. I studied art for 20 years and can get that nose on the right side, every time. And don't get me started on Monet... hell you have to stand 10 feet away to figure out what the subjects of his paintings are. Now Escher... he was a genius.

Though I certainly do not know much about music theory, I do have an art degree and I think the point you were trying to make here, Ron, is this: Most of these artists have an extensive technical knowledge of their craft. If you look back at their early work you will find extremely realistic technical works, but did any of them become famous for those? no. Hovever, their technical background gave them the knowledge to see what was possible and and the ability to deviate from that and produce something completely new and thought provoking. not necessarily popular. They took their knowledge and distorted it into something new. you can't rearange and distort something until you know where all the pieces go to begin with. My opinion is that the same applies to music. The more you know technically, the more you can take those bits of knowledge and change them into something no one else has done before. simplify them, expand on them, complicate them, whatever.
Sure, I could copy a Picasso. a monkey could copy Picasso. but would it mean anything? no. The beauty is in the thought process behind the art, and the inovativeness of it that makes it stand apart. The common joe probably won't appreciate it. Just like the common joe may be more likely to listen to Brittany than Motzart. So I guess the question I have is What is more important? Talent or popularity? In this business it's the popularity that makes the money, but the talent and innovation that earns the respect. I guess the best place to be is somewhere in the middle. But I definately think that knowledge may not be everything, but it definately opens up doors to new things. heart is just as important. The technical is nothing without the imagination to break from it.

witchhunt · Post by **witchhunt** » Thursday Feb 19, 2004

http://artsforge.com/gallery_new/giger/

Speaking of fantastic art, check this out. Oh yea, love Escher, too.

evenaswedrum · Post by **evenaswedrum** » Thursday Feb 19, 2004

http://darkimages.com/
if you like that you'll love this.

metalrules - you have your version, we have the truth. you started out with people backing ya up in the begnning... personally i thought you were an idiot then... but i'm glad to see you kept running your mouth and proved that you are one of those ignorant musicians you speak of.
Good luck with rewriting history.

Post by **Ron** » Thursday Feb 19, 2004

April,

Sorry... I wasn't being serious about the Picasso stuff. It was just sarcasm at the prospect that a composition in any medium can actually be judged as "better" than another on an artistic level.

I dig Picasso, Monet, Escher, and all the rest, and I didn't study art (that was part of the sarcasm), though I was a commercial graphic artist for many years. I really didn't care for the commercial end of it, as there was little flexibilty or room to create. Sort of like playing all covers and no originals.

I think it great how visual art and music mirror one another in certain ways. You may see Hendrix as a sonic Jackson Pollock, Allan Holdsworth as an Escher, or Fred Durst as a Bob Ross.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Thursday Feb 19, 2004

Don't worry Ron, I got your joke.

The funny thing is, Escher always said that math/geometry were more hobbies of his and he didn't have extensive training in either. Still, his works are marveled by both art lovers and engineers/architects.

mad hatter · Post by **mad hatter** » Thursday Feb 19, 2004

Brad makes good home-made wine. Yum! Yum! Gets you damn drunk too. Larger than life, oh yeah.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Thursday Feb 19, 2004

All I am saying is knowledge is power and knowing theory and standard notation is beneficial . Growth of a band and a musician comes from knowledge.

Most bands and musicians who know nothing about theory or standard notation are MOST likely to play nothing but POWER CHORDS or triadic bar chords.

HENCE, placing themselves and their band in a LIMITATION BOX

WHen someone knows standard notation and theory, he is MOST likely to be able to play complex chords like Em11 or Db13.

A theorist will most likely be able to explore more of the guitar neck , playing chords in 11th and 12th positions

A theorist is most likely to know how to do different guitar techniques like CHORD SOLOING, WALKING BASS LINES OVER CHANGES, ETC

A theorist will most likely know how to play in variety of styles and know what makes up those styles. Like how to comp for samba feels, mamba feels, jazz waltz feels, etc

A theorist usually thinks more clever and gets the most out of songwriting and songwriting technique. Example, the writer who helped write Garth Brooks song FRIENDS IN LOW PLACES. The co writer who was more educated in music than Garth helped him write a clever song. Like the PLAY ON WORDS AND MELODY. When the lyric reads " I got friends in LOOOOOW places," the melody DIPS WAY LOW, (hence) playing on the word LOW.

Now that is what I call NO LIMITATIONS, HENCE NO BOX

LImited uneducated writers usually have all the common cliches. There melody lines are usually repetitive, 2 bar BACK HEAVY PHRASING. There songs never progress past the I, IV, V chord progression using nothing but Triadic or power chords.

Most uneducated people usually have all their songs written in Major Keys of C, D, G or A. OR, A minor. and using a I, IV, V or i, iv, v chord progression

Uneducated musicians are LESS LIKELY to Modulate or use chords borrowed from other keys

Most likely an uneducated musician would NOT play a chord progression like this

Ebm11, Bbm9, Bm11, Em11, Am7b5, Dm9, Db13, Ebm

One thing that bothers me about uneducated musicians is when they go to set their lyrics to melody they think THE FIRST WORD OF THE SENTENCE HAS TO START ON BEAT 1. This naive way has words like (AND) on the strong beat of one, giving highlight and importance TO A STUPID NON IMPORTANT WORD

The problem lies in the fact that most people place SCALES AND MODES as their only understanding of what theory is. Theory GOES WELL BEYOND MODES AND SCALES. That is why people trivialize theory and the importance because a naive dumbass musician thinks WHY DO I NEED TO KNOW HOW TO PLAY A ( D MAJOR SCALE) whoooooo cares?

What they don't realize is that scales and modes are the most basic of theory knowledge. Theory goes well beyond that.

EXAMPLE

MELODY: melodic phrase, conjunct/disjunct motion, writing for the voice
PITCH: stable and unstable tones, tone tendencies, tonally open and closed phrases

RYTHM: pulse, meter, rhythm stress, summative stress,

TONE: tone tendencies, immediate resolution, delayed resolution, no resolution

SYMMETRY/ASYMMETRY: compositional variables, balance vs symmetry, phrase lengths, rhythm of the phrase, matched and inexactly matched and unmatched phrases

MELODIC OUTLINE, MELODIC CONTOUR: ascending, descending, arch, inverted arch, stationary

PHRASE ACCELERATION/DECELERATION
RHYTHMIC ACCELERATION/DECELERATION

MELODIC PLACEMENT: melodic placement, strong cadential points, pickup notes, beginning on the weak part of the measures or metric grouping

BUILDING SECTIONS: symmetric section, creating open sections, unbalancing a section, creating interesting balanced sections

MELODIC DEVELOPMENTAL TECHNIQUES: repetition, rhythmic retention/pitch change, sequence, extension, truncation, inversion, retrograde, diminution, augmentation, fragmentation, permutation, interversion, conjunction, ornamentation, thinning, rhythmic displacement, dove tailing, etc

ALL THOSE melodic developmental techniques alone can help writers write better more memorable melody lines.

ALL WHAT I JUST STATED IS A VERY SMALL FRACTION OF THEORY, I JUST RATTLE A FEW THINGS OFF MY HEAD, THERE IS SOOOO MUCH MORE

Theory and music education is more useful and has more meaning and delves deeper than just knowledge of scales. One is pretty naive to think scales and modes make up theory and that is it. This is why people could care less BECAUSE THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT IS OUT THERE, and how to get the most out of music

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Thursday Feb 19, 2004

bassist_25 wrote:Punkinhead, good call on the Nevermore. I have Dreaming Neon Black and Jeff Loomis and Tim Calvert smoke throughout the whole thing. Great band. Do you like Iced Earth?

Iced Earth is really cool...Ripper Owens is a nice fit for them now too...they actually were in this month's guitar world, a good interview...

a couple of my other favorites still ripping are children of bodom (it's insanity, progressive black metal) and In Flames (no shred but damn, it's good guitar work, especially the older shit...)

Metal rules, you're preaching to the choir as far as the theory thing is concerned. Rest assured man, you don't really have to go into a theory lesson on here. There are those on here that know it already, and others could give a fuck, either way it works for them.
The problem I have with not giving Hendrix his due. You say that some Van Halen live album is the best ever, yet without Jimi, Eddie Van may not ever create his sound...You did hit a good point about some guitarists piecing solos together and not being as good as they sound. However there are many who are as good as they sound. Hendrix did have limitations but, who doesn't? The point was his creativity, oh and about young people not knowing him, I have 27 votes on my poll on my other message board, full of teenagers and people under 25, like myself. Not one person doesnt know Jimi, Im sorry man you're wrong in that respect.

Whoever posted on here about Neil Young-I heard him do a live version of All Along The Watchtower, and yes he should be banned from improvisation. Im sorry to the Neil fans but, damn, it was the worst thing Ive ever heard.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Friday Feb 20, 2004

Wow, I didn't know that Ripper was in Iced Earth. Who's singing for Priest now? COB and In Flames are cool; as is Opeth.

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Friday Feb 20, 2004

Halford's back, they reunited to do Ozzfest...

Opeth is cool. Did you ever check out Blood Bath?

Its the lead singer of Opeth's second band, it's pretty good.