Understanding your instrument part 2

[Banned]

the comment or UNDERTONE that I am getting from many players is that you either have HEART and play by ear, or you have KNOWLEDGE AND THEORY and play mechanical. That concept is just flat out ridiculous.

Because a guitar player is limited in knowledge or is a play by ear guitar player doesn't make him JOE FEELING on guitar. I find the complete opposite is true. A player who is so limited in knowledge often times is a STIFF, RIGID , I LOOK AT GUITAR NECK THE ENTIRE TIME, type of player. Because of their limited knowledge they often time just MEMORIZE the position and its so foreign to them they often sound mechanical.

The person who knows theory and under stands how to read and write music can improve MUCH BETTER. This leads to more feeling and confidence in their playing.

The miss conception by most at this site is that if you read music you can't improve and play without seeing the music. THAT IS NOOOOT TRUE. Readers make the best improve guitar players. Readers are the better guitar players who don't see the music to play it.


most of you guys here are failing to see that KNOWLEDGE IS POWER. It i benefits you in ANY field. Knowledge NEVER, NEVER, NEVER limits anyone. Knowledge EXPANDS peoples horizons.

THe person who knows theory and knows how to read will be able to comprehend complex chord progression without looking at the music.

Suppose you are JAMMING out with your buddies. Someone says lets improve and jam out to this chord progression. ( he says it but doesnt write it out)

Ebm11 Fm9 Bb7(b9#5) Bb7 Ebm7

stretch each chord out for 2 bars.


The person who knows how to read will be able to understand that progression without having to write it out. HE WILL SEE IT IN HIS HEAD.

The person who does not know theory or how to read will say, HUH?



The thing most are failing to understand is, HIGH SCHOOL CHORUS BAND, AND JAZZ BANDS those players lack the UNDERSTANDING of theory and how to use it. The often miss conception is if a player knows how to read he can't play without the music or he is unable to solo.

What they don't realize is that its high school kids who do not understand the concept and how to apply the theory. Most of those kids are not really that good they just are able to play a few things and that is it. Don't judge knowledge on those types of players

The best site readers in the world are great at playing without the sheet music.

Also the best site readers use the sheet music as a BLUE PRINT. I always tell people PLAY IT DONT RESITE IT.

Sheet music is often times to straight sounding and stiff. Specially old jazz tunes that are in lead sheet form. None of the great jazz musicians played those songs like the lead sheet indicated. Simply because it was arranged boringly and often to straight and stiff. Jazz musicians saw the notes but used techniques like ANTICIPATION, or ALTERNATE CHORDS, etc.

When you are just a play by ear kind of player and you no absolutely no theory or can't read or write music, YOU ARE THE ONES WHO ARE IN A BOX

LIMITATIONS=BOX
KNOWLEDGE= EXPANDABILITY and GROWTH

knowledge creates a box?, THAT IS CONTRADICTING.

[songsmith]

Bassist25, that was very well thought, and seems to me to be pretty much spot on. My view of the Pop level is that the attraction to this level is more of a social phenomena, as opposed to the more personal levels of Emotional or Intellectual. I think the Pop level has to do with issues like how a person's perceived peer group reacts to a certain artistic endeavor ( example: all my 13 year-old niece's friends like Good Charlotte, so she does,too), the comfort factor ( pop art is generally easy to consume, and easy to understand), and even more simply, what is made readily available (hearing the same 20 songs over and over and over, ad nauseum, until you know every nuance of every song, whether you wanted to or not). As a songwriter, the Pop level is the part I agonize over... emotion and intellect is a given, if I wasn't moved to write the song, I wouldn't have attempted to write it... still, I have to structure the piece in an accessible way if I want it to be easily consumed, which is the part I struggle with the most. I have the technical means to compose whatever I want however I want it, but would the average person want to experience what I've created? In the end, the songs that I write for my own artistic jollies seldom get played for an audience, and I'm constantly straddling that line between what's good to me, and what's good for the audience.

Metalrules, I see what you're getting at now. You came off as kinda snooty at first, but I think it was just how I read it, not what you were trying to say. I get ya now!------>JMS

[RobTheDrummer]

Here's one for the drummers. Drummers that are good players know their technique and rudiments, they are more controlled, musical, and knowing. A lot of drummers that don't know proper technique and rudiments are usually stiff and tense(mostly newer drummers). They can understand what they want to do, yet they don't have the necessary tools to do so. Once my students start getting technique down and work on rudiments, it is amazing how much better they become in a short period of time. So, any drummer that is a natural and has never learned either technique or rudiments should do so. If you are already good and know technique, learning rudiments can make you that much better and more able to understand what you are doing. If you already know a lot of rudiments and technique, there are lots more to work on- the key to being good is to practice like a mo-fo...anyone want to learn about rudiments, contact me, I can help you out. Or, come to the drummer get together

[wake up drumming]

I've been trying to avoid posting here cause I surely don't want to come across as offesive in any way. But; here's my 2 cents: JUST FREAKIN' PLAY AND HAVE FUN AT IT!!! It doesn't matter if you're schooled, read music, don't read music, play from ear, or whatever! For some, it IS about learning theory, scales, rudiments, note-association, etc. and that's great -rock on! For others (like me) it's about expression, release, feeling, fun, etc. If you are comforatable with your level of musicianship, then who really gives a shit.

Whatever the case, it's not fair for one to judge the other! There are educated, music reading, theory driven musicians who never made it out of the garage while the guy next door who never took a lesson before just finished touring the country! (and vise-versa). Maybe the question here should be: How far have YOU come in your music career? I don't think it's right for anyone to judge a player like Jimi Hendrix and say he wasn't impressive. This guy changed the way guitar was played, toured the world, sold millions of albums, and did it his way!!! What have you done?
What impact will you leave behind? What can you do that's so much better to justify insulting the career of a legend? Again, I'm not trying to be rude but COME ON!!

[Ron]

I have to agree that knowlege is power, but it is conventional wisdom that creates "the box". I had a discussion once about "the box" with one of my college math professors. One of the things he stressed was that the more you learn, the harder it is to to think past it. Most people think that math is concrete... 2+2=4... but in reality, math is extremely abstract. A good example is pi... it is used every day, but nobody knows what it's true value really is.

Nothing that I can think of has been "invented" on guitar using conventional technique in the past 20 years. The closest things that come to mind are two-handed tapping, whammy tricks, alternate tunings, and electronic effects. These things tend to be 'dissed' as breakthroughs by those who are more knowledgeable in music theory. Mainly because it takes a lifetime of dedication and hard work to learn the "right" way. Hence discussions like this can hit an emotional chord. Sorry if I've offended anybody.

If you look at music in the same light as visual art, music has many more roadblocks to creativity. In conventional music, the tools are much more expensive, harder to use, and the palette is limited. It's a wonder that anything original at all comes out of our instruments, and I have to respect those who study for years to hone their skills.

I must say that my whole esoteric view is mainy mental noodling, and wake up drumming said it best. Just play and enjoy, no matter how well you know your instrument.

[lonewolf]

I DONT HAVE A PROBLEM LEARNING ANYTHING. I DONT THINK I HAVE YOUR BOX PROBLEM. I WAS AN A.P.. STUDENT WITH A 162 I.Q I ALSO HAVE 21 ORIGINALS AND THEY ARE FAR FROM GARBAGE, PAL. REMEMBER THIS !
OPINIONATED FACT IS ALL WE ARE TOUGHT IN SCHOOL. MUSIC THEORY IS THIS . IF IT SOUNDS LIKE IT SHOULD SOUND THAT WAY IT IS CORRECT AND MOST PEOLPLE DONT CARE FOR COMPLEX MUSIC. MOST OF ALL SIMPLE AND TRUE APPLIED FEELINGS FOR THE MASSES ARE WHERE IT IS AT.

Uh huh. 162 on a scale of 160. Where were you tought spelling?

[Ron]

I think that the maximum IQ score depends on the test. The current champ is supposedly Marilyn vos Savant with a score of 223! The amazing part is her job... not a scientist, not a physicist, but... a columnist for Parade magazine! Now that's irony at it's best.

[lonewolf]

They are in the process of standardizing the different standardized tests. When they are done, vos Savant's 228 score will not be on the scale.

But you are right, it depends on the test. Some tests have no time limit and some do. Some have raw scores and some have standard deviation bell-curve type scores.

The last one I took was 12 minutes and had 50 questions. Nobody has ever finished it on the 1st go around. Most people don't even get half way. Of course, the photographic memory crowd should do well on 2nd trys.

And if the abilities are misplaced...

[lonewolf]

MUSIC IS ABOUT FUN. NOT YOUR EGOS.

Ok, well then what's this all about?:

I WAS AN A.P.. STUDENT WITH A 162 I.Q I ALSO HAVE 21 ORIGINALS AND THEY ARE FAR FROM GARBAGE, PAL. REMEMBER THIS !

[bassist_25]

John, I think you are stressing over the "Pop" level a little to much. Whenever you create a piece of art, the pop level will always be there. It's simply the meaningless asethetic of the art. But you can always make a conscious effort, as an artist, to work on the pop aspect of your piece. Like I said, the pop level is very important. An example would be, if you wrote a song and used a flange effect on your guitar. The flange effect would be operating on the pop level. Of course, if the flange were to be interepeted as a respesentation of something, such as water, (I don't know, whenever I here flange, I associate it with water ) then it would cease to be "Pop" and then it moves on to being an intellectual or emotional device.

I remember the lead singer of Fuel once said something like "Hooks just seem to be ingrained in my head". He seems to be recognizing the Pop aspect of his music. Likewise, bands like the Beatles are brilliant. (along with the help of George Martin of course ) That Jet tune that's out right now is totally "Pop". (the retro aspect makes it even more pop)

As far as IQ tests, I don't put much worth in IQ tests simply because they only measure Linguistic, Mathematical, and Spatial intelligences. As you can tell, I'm arguing from the point of Howard Gardner's theory of the 7 intelligences. The educational system is very biased and doesn't help develop children's talents. Well, they somewhat have a system based on the 7 intelligences; it's called the "Academic, Business, and General Vocation" curriculums. Applying Howard Gardner's system would be a huge paradigm to the educational system. Of course, we probaly won't be seeing that soon cause we all know that change costs money and you have all of the purists set in their ways, believing that standardized testing on subjects is the only way to measure success. So back to IQ tests, there is no way to measure somone's true capacity by looking at an IQ tests that only measures a small part of someone's intellect. If you take a person, who scored a 112 on an IQ test but has a highly developed intrapersonal intelligence, then put them in the real estate business, they are probaly going to do better than someone who scored a 154, but doesn't have a highy developed intrapersonal intelligence.

Then we have to ask if intelligence is measured by rote information, or the actual thought process. I bet many of a valedictorian really isn't all that "smart", they are just good at taking tests and working with rote information.

[Banned]

To respond to the Jimi Hendrix revolutionized guitar comment, I say NO HE DIDN'T.

When you start to learn theory and really understand your instrument the so called greats get devalued in the GOD SENSE.

I used to think Jimi Hendrix was LARGER THAN LIFE. As I got older and learned a hell of a lot about music, Jimi is brought down to life for me. Suddenly he is not larger than life.

I start to notice Jimi's LIMITATIONS rather than his so called revoulutionizing technique.

1 Jimi Hendrix couldn't even tune a guitar. I think everyone here knows the old story of him saying, " is John or Paul in the audience, i need my guitar tuned"

2 All he did was penatonic blues scales saturated in heavy distortion.

3 many of his life performances you can hear guitar strings OUT OF TUNE

When I first heard Jimi Hendrix the thing that amazed me was his

1 Whammy bar techniques
2 his rebel ways for that generation

After awhile the whammy bar bomb and lion roars get old. For one it is NOT THAT HARD TO DO with a little practice. Anyone can start to make horse sounds and cat meows with a whammy bar.

When I started to learn guitar the whammy bar was the first thing I could start to do. Simply because it is easy to make animal sounds. Noodling and immitating is one of the easy things for beginning guitarsists to do. Simply because they do not know anything, so the noodle side comes out.

I find the guitar players like Joe Pass, Chet Atkins, Kenny Burrell, etc show more brilliance in their playing than Jimi Hendrix did.

Most of those guitar players couild do more with a guitar

1 They could read music
2 They got more out of their guitar from the technique stand point, like WALKING BASS LINES OVER CHORD CHANGES, CHORD SOLOING(MELODY AND CHORDS AT SAME TIME),

Those guitarist I mentioned could FUNCTION IN ANY STYLE of music from LATIN, SAMBA, ROCK, JAZZ, BLUES, COUNTRY, BLUE GRASS, etc

Jimi Hendrix only functioned in the rock style, he couldn't play in any other style or format. HENCE LIMITATIONS

[lonewolf]

tyroon, I don't know what to tell you except that you are no longer worth my time.

Don't forget the old saying: "violence is the first resort of the small mind"

[wake up drumming]

I don't care what style Jimi Hendrix played. The fact remains that HE WILL ALWAYS BE KNOWN AS ONE OF THE BEST GUITARISTS OF ALL TIME PERIOD! Regardless of your opinion, this is an opinion shared by "EDUCATED" musicians and us "IGNORANT" musicians alike! Plus the everyday normal music lover!!! Dude, give some credit where credit is due for god's sake. Nobody's arguing that sure, Jimi didn't know everything about guitar but guess what.....neither do you! Maybe he didn't know how to tune the guitar but he still sold how many albums, toured the world how many times, has how many hit songs that are still played on radio today??? DO YOU? It takes some huge balls to get on here and say Jimi's talent was minimal. Until you've accomplished half of the things that he has, you have no room to talk! I apologize for my IGNORANCE.

[songsmith]

Jimi has to be taken in context, too. When he did The Star Spangled Banner at Woodstock, it was a galvanizing moment, not only in music, but in America. Whammy-bar histrionics are commonplace now, even cliched. In 1969, however, it sounded like space aliens. Add in sound effects that recall dropping bombs and machine gun fire, during the height of the most unpopular war the US had ever fought, not to metion the only one we had ever really lost, and it's no wonder people still recognize his version immediately. I've seen interviews with "nobody's" like Clapton, Beck and Townshend, when they ALL went to clubs to see Jimi. Bear in mind they were all already huge stars. They wouldn't make a pilgrimmage to see such a loser, would they?
On a different note, I heard a few rumors that Joe Pass sometimes stopped in Altoona to jam with local friends. anybody here ever hear that?--->JMS

[bassist_25]

I remember Todd, the guy who use to run the pawn shop/trading post type of place in Juniata (he use to be in Tyrone, but then moved his shop to Juniata, last time I talked to him, he was going into video editing business full-time) told me this story of how he use to work in a music store. One day, while he was sitting around playing on his break, an older guy walks in to buy strings. The guy looks at Todd and says something like, "Those are some nice chops you have there". After the guy leaves, one of Todd's co-workers is excited. He asks Todd if he knew who that guy was. That man, who walked in to buy strings, was Joe Pass.

[lonewolf]

Jimi Hendrix only functioned in the rock style, he couldn't play in any other style or format. HENCE LIMITATIONS

Much of what you say is true, however, he not only functioned in the rock style, he defined many aspects of rock guitar even though he never lived to see 30.

You forgot to mention Roy Clark, Joe Negri and our very own Ed McGuire.

We shouldn't be talking about Jimi, though. Congress should act quickly to pass a law forbidding Neil Young access to electric guitars. He should only be allowed around them when other band members have them in their possession and playing them.

[Ron]

Bassist_25, I've heard that story before. Todd and I are good friends, though I haven't seen him in years. That happened at the Big Red Note in the Logan Valley Mall. Todd always lovingly referred to it as the Big Dead Goat. I bought my first guitar there.

[Punkinhead]

To quote Frank Zappa:

"SHUT UP AND PLAY YER GUITAR!"

Look, I know a shitload of theory, I've taken upper level classes at two different schools. I've trained classically for a couple years. I have a whole catalog of Bach, Beethoven, Chopin, and Flamenco guitar, and I am a guitar teacher. But even I AM NOT brash or dumb enough to rip on Jimi Hendrix....

When you metalrules can take a guitar and show me a war in a 7 minute solo. When you can speak for a nation by hammering out a version of the national anthem that defines a time period. When you can change the face of rock and roll with YOUR guitar, when you can communicate to the masses and make them understand....THEN AND ONLY THEN can you talk about Hendrix...yes, theory is invaluable, yes i enjoy that I know it, yes, it helps me, NO, I am not dumb enough to talk shit on the most influential guitarist that has ever lived....

This thread has become bullshit.....

[Banned]

Jimi Hendrix as a great guitar player? Yeah, but in whos minds. Hendrix record sales were not all that impressive. He did ok for his time period well enough to keep him signed to a label. However, in todays sales his sales would be considered average or poor.

Hendrix fan based is limited also. WHen I ask my grandma ( who is 79 years old), who Hendrix was, SHE DOES NOT KNOW. My grandma is familiar with music and has always been. Her favorite artist is Shania Twain ( which is a modern day singer). Yet, she does not know or has never heard of Jimi Hendrix

Both of my parents who are 57, who grew up in the woodstock era, think hendrix is just a bunch of NOISE. I have heard both say on occasion " that guitar playing sounds terrible"

Also in todays standards most 20 years olds and younger do not know who hendrix was. Unless you are involved in a band or play guitar, most AVERAGE MUSIC LISTENER does not know who jimi hendrix was.

The percentage drops even farther with teenage GIRLS in todays society. At work I asked almost every young 20 year old girl WHO JIMI HENDRIX WAS, all of them did not know.

Again, most guitar players are impressionable and see Jimi as larger than life. What it comes down to is this, HE WAS AT THE RIGHT PLACE AT THE RIGHT TIME. His guitar standards which consist of nothing but pentatonic scales is considered just AVERAGE IN TODAYS GUITAR PLAYING.

Vai, Satch, Van Halen, all displayed better transition to their playing. In other words THEIR FINGERS MOVE UP AND DOWN THE GUITAR NECK, where as Hendrix just stayed stationary in a pentatonic pattern

Again, I like Hendrix, but he doesn't have that larger than life persona that I use to view him with. With my education and what I know, I see his LIMITATIONS

One last thing, DONT MENTION SUCCESS. If one judges success as who is the better musician, THAN BRITNEY SPEARS IS BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU. Also Madonna who is often scene performing with a guitar hacking out simple bar chords like a beginning child is BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU.

Do you think madonna can play the guitar better than all of you, just because she sells millions of records?

[Punkinhead]

Again, I like Hendrix, but he doesn't have that larger than life persona that I use to view him with. With my education and what I know, I see his LIMITATIONS

One last thing, DONT MENTION SUCCESS. If one judges success as who is the better musician, THAN BRITNEY SPEARS IS BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU. Also Madonna who is often scene performing with a guitar hacking out simple bar chords like a beginning child is BETTER THAN ALL OF YOU.

Do you think madonna can play the guitar better than all of you, just because she sells millions of records?

Funny that you mention Vai & Satch here bud....Guess who they credit as the best guitarist of all time? Hendrix...In Satriani's own words: "No one has come close to touching what Jimi Hendrix has done with the guitar, and no one probably will" That's in whos minds....
I didnt mention success, all I said was
if you want to rip on Hendrix you better be something spectacular....you cant be some average dude who knows theory. You have to be the innovator he was. I dont care how much you know or talk of Jimi's pentatonic boxes. Ive seen his videos, im in my early 20's, am not impressionable and have made my guitar my life, soul, and existence. Being a musician of any caliber, you have to know that the final thing is a connection. theory or not, you arent shit if you cant connect with yourself through your playing. and if you cant connect with people through a guitar, make them feel something, you aint shit to them. No one did this better than hendrix. Stop looking at technique and look at music. Don't tell me some bullshit about albums and people not knowing...you mention 4 people and think it goes for the whole world???

oh and without him cranking his marshalls to the max, where do you think eddie van halen's sound would have evolved from, or his tapping?

jimi was blues based, thats his pentatonic basing. using todays standards from your point of view i can say that tony iommi, one of the godfathers of metal sucks. of course this would be comparing him to zakk wylde, randy rhoads, james murphy, etc. but then again, would there be these people without tony iommi? doubt it....same for jimi

[Banned]

Okay, so you spend five paragraphs deriding Hendrix because nobody knows who he is . . . . but then you say that level of success doesn't determine whether or not you are a good musician? This has degenerated from an intelligent discussion into a pure pissing contest.


To me, Hendrix goes beyond technique. He was a devoted student of the instrument, for sure, and a renowned sideman before he achieved fame on his own. But what really sets him apart for me is that he was such an UNINHIBITED musician. He unleashed the full force of his personality directly through his instrument, completely unfiltered. It's Primal Scream Therapy on guitar.

Of course when you allow yourself to go completely unhinged, the results aren't always pretty. Being a Hendrix fan is tough . . . you have to wade through a lot of shit to get to the good stuff. He was both god and swine.

But the legacy is undeniable. His musical offspring includes the likes of Malmsteen, Vai, SRV, and Eric Johnson. Each one is/was a Hendrix fanatic. Satriani considers "Machine Gun" to be the greatest guitar performance of all time.