Questions for Guitarists

Matt_22 · Post by **Matt_22** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

I see that the bassists have a little tech talk and I'm glad that they can blame thier mistakes on the drummer, its cute in some odd kind of way. But guitarist don't have to blame anyone because we flat out don't make mistakes.

Beyond that, what would you think is the absolute best guitar rig out there. I'm talkin guitar, Amp, pedals, rackmounts, ect. And also can anyone tell me the characteristics of Mesa Boogie Rectifier(dual,Triple) and compare them to the characteristics of a marshall. What makes these two high end amps so different?

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

Matt_22 wrote: But guitarist don't have to blame anyone because we flat out don't make mistakes.

Beyond that, what would you think is the absolute best guitar rig out there. I'm talkin guitar, Amp, pedals, rackmounts, ect. And also can anyone tell me the characteristics of Mesa Boogie Rectifier(dual,Triple) and compare them to the characteristics of a marshall. What makes these two high end amps so different?

Tubes, or the amount of....Marshall's come with 8 or 9 total(4-5 preamp, 4 output), mesa's come with 12-14. this means two things, realistically, mesa's are way hotter, and to replace tubes in a mesa costs an arm and a leg. but my sound of preference is the older 5150's. they have 9 tubes, and are alot hotter than marshall's. they are not quite near what a mesa boogie is but, for my style, i go more for a cutting, shredding tone, than a gained out one. but i think there are many ways to get the best sounds, it depends on what you want. less effects generally means more crunch unless you use a bypassable loop where you get that unadultered crunch sound then use effects only when necessary. and i prefer foot pedals but, cant find a damn ducking delay in a pedal so i have to use rackmount ....

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

The biggest difference between high end Boogies and Marshalls is the tone characteristics. The Marshalls have a distinct almost nasal tone (best way I can describe it) and the Boogies have a broader, more open tone.

Marshalls are generally not as versatile as Boogies, but the Marshall sound is engrained in 40+ years of rock recordings.

If you want a versatile Marshall rig, try a JMP-1 pre-amp with one of their power amps--even the Valvestate rackmounts. You can get all the classic marshall sounds and still have clean channels to process thru the FX loop for versatility. The Boss VF1 is an excellent processor for the money, although it is no longer in production. I liked it so much that I sold my TC Electronic GForce, bought 2 more VF1s and pocketed $200. For Marshall cabs, I prefer the 1965 4x10 cabs over the 4x12s for punch. Only the model 1965 cabs though...the new ones are junk.

On the Boogie side, I like the Mark IV simul-class and may get back on the tube bandwagon with one. The Triaxis preamp is killer too, but get your wallet out. Most Boogie cabs are hard to beat, and I am using two 1984 1-12" RoadReady Thieles with Boogie 90W celestions. I'll never part with them.

Frustrated with getting good tubes, I sold all my marshall stuff (see above) last august and am having some good success using Boss VF1s to model tube sounds, but the sound is only 95%...not 110% like Marshall and Boogie.

Matt_22 · Post by **Matt_22** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

Ok, I can help out with the delay pedal that isn't out there. Line 6 makes a delay that is a footswitch. It runs about 300$ but you can not beat the job it does. I used to play a Line 6 Pod Pro rackmount unit powered by a Crate Blue Voodoo 60 watt tube amp. The line 6 does a impressive job being one of the highest end modulaters but as posted above it just all isn't there. I then purchased the Mesa Dual Rectifier. This rig works great.
One thing that really isn't right is that alot of guitarists I've seen in this area feel that to get a heavy metal sound you have to scoop the mids and crank the highs, lows, and the gain. In reaility you have a bass player let him do his job. A guitars tone needs the 2.5K and the 4K to cut through a mix. Sure it doesn't sound as mean when your playing alone but with a band it let enough space for everyone to breathe and makes the overall sound about 110% easier on the ears. Just my $.02.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

Good post about letting the bassist cover the low end, I totally agree. And Lonewolf, you're right, it's hard to beat those Thiele boxes. I can't imagine why more guitarists don't use them. Matt Bopp used to use 2 of the Thiele's, then bought a Boogie 2 x 12" cab in a floor-monitor configuration... it really cut down on the stage levels because it aimed right at him, and eliminated the audience wash from his rig, so the PA could do the heavy lifting. Oh, and it sounded fantastic, but the Thiele's did, too.------->JMS

Sanctify · Post by **Sanctify** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

I have a mesa boogie trip rectifier... I love it... the replacement tubes aren't that bad either... about $25 a pop for channel tubes... power tubes are a little more expensive.. I"ve had mine for a year and 4 months... not a single problem yet... the difference between the dual and trip is the 3rd channel's prensence starts where the 2nd leaves off... major major difference... yeah they are expensive... but it was well worth it to me...

www.innergband.com

Matt_22 · Post by **Matt_22** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

I would have bought the triple rec. but I thought 150 watt of mesa would just be too much. I love the dual rec. that I just bought it back in the end of december, and I agree it is worth every penny.
Though the other guitar player in our band Ever SInce Yesterday has a Marshall JCM 800 and that really puts it out. I mean that head with a distortion pedal is a mean line up.

Sanctify · Post by **Sanctify** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

yeah but again.. my trip rec.. needs no distortion pedal... and I get serious crunch... especially when I use my ghs zakk wylde sig series strings... 60 -10.... crunch...

www.innergband.com

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

I have a dumb question, and way too much spare time...

For those of you who tune down, I mean WAY down, do you use heavy strings or light to do that? Back in the day, the band tuned down a half step, because of the heavy sound, and because it made the nut-twister notes easier to sing. I didn't play guitar onstage then, and when I tried to years later, the strings were so loose, they felt all spongey and boingy, and I kept pulling every note sharp. Can you do this with larger profile frets, or do they have to be pretty low? Should I even attempt this with my Strat, or should I have a flatter radius fretboard for this? Can it be done with an acoustic?
This isn't something I'd do all the time, but it'd be cool to play along with the old stuff, and it might add some color to my recordings.---->JMS

crakkedhalo · Post by **crakkedhalo** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

i love crates.

crakkedhalo · Post by **crakkedhalo** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

Yeah I understand that your triple rec doesnt need a distortion pedal and thats fine if you want the same tone as everyone else who owns one.

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

I use 10-60 gauge strings for standard tuning and for when we tune down....the marshall jcm 800 with a distortion pedal in front of it is a staple in metal....zakk wylde, kerry king, yngwie, jonathan danais all use it to name a few. oh and so did this little fellow by the name of rhoads i believe....

Matt_20 · Post by **Matt_20** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

Heavier strings like the zw will allow you to tune lower. If you want to tune down you should set your intonation to what you are setting your tuning for. See maybe the fender doesn't have a strong enough neck to hold a .60 low string but if you never tune it any higher than be then it won't have enough tension to warp your neck. If you are an avid heavy string player maybe you should think about a guitar with a double truss or something. Also if you put that heavy of a string on your fender you will have to adjust the nut and and adjust your bridge. Since the strings are fatter they will be closer to the fretboard and therefore buzz themselves out. SO you can just put thicker strings on but if you want them to sound good there is some minor changes that make a big difference. And a tuned down heavy string will keep you from playing things sharp and it will also make you feel like you are hitting something.

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Monday Feb 16, 2004

I know a fella that trashed his first Ibanez guitar from when he was a youngin by messin with all the drop tuning stuff, It probably makes sense that he tried to take that guitar back to standard tuning with heavier strings on. It actually split the fingerboard from the neck down towards the body. Good thing I'm too lazy to mess with that stuff

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Tuesday Feb 17, 2004

We tested several different heads and preamps out while trying to find the sound we went for on our CD. Two Mesa's (Duel Recto and Rectoverb), a VHT Pittbull, a Zinky, Ignator Preamp, Carvin Quad X preamp, Kosh preamp, Laney all tube head, Randall solid state head, Rocktron Voodu Valve preamp, and a Steavens "The Brick". These heads and preamps were tried with many different combinations of poweramps, speaker cabs, and direct in's. Out of everything that was tried, the Steavens came out as #1 for an overall sound. The clean tone is out of this world and the preamp has 4 seperate channels to suit your needs. We ran the preamp into a VHT poweramp, then into a 2 12" greenback loaded cab. I believe we didn't run the gain full tilt either, which is going to change

. The VHT Pittbull was a very close second, but we thought it was too much for what we were going for at the time. For those that have heard the demo version of the CD, we're in the process of beefing it up guitarwise.......a lot. Whenever the CD was mastered, for some reason, the guitars were pushed into the background while the keyboard parts were brought forward. We didn't know what to exactly expect out of the mastering guy and were left very dissatisfied with the results. However, it was a $1500 experience worth learning and it's going to be remixed and remastered to have a heavier edge. If anyone's interested in hearing the guitar tone on the demo version, RST will be on The Backyard Rocker this Sunday. Tune in and mail me your thoughts. We'd like to hear from you all.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Tuesday Feb 17, 2004

If the objective is two channels (1. shred and 2. more shred), then a Boss VF1 modeler, a 200W+ power amp, a midi switcher and ballsy cabinets will do it. You have your choice of Boogie, Marshall I & II, Soldano, 5150 and a few others. For shred, I prefer the 5150 for rhythm and Soldano for lead.

Besides compressor, noise gate and 4 band parametric EQ, you also get Boss pedal effects like chorus, flanger, phaser, slow gear, distortion, etc, a mono synthesizer, good multitap delays and reverbs, intelligent harmonizing and acoustic guitar simulator--yes, you can turn your electric into a convincing acoustic.

Before I get flamed, I would like to point out that I've had 2 Marshalls and 2 Boogies, all high end, and I can get the same 110% shred out of the VF1. Doing things like tweeking bluesy tones for "quack" and responsive, clear searing lead tones is another story. That's where the 95% comes in.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Tuesday Feb 17, 2004

Also if you put that heavy of a string on your fender you will have to adjust the nut and and adjust your bridge.

You should also adjust the truss rod to compensate for the extra string pull.

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Tuesday Feb 17, 2004

Gibson added a second truss rod to Zakk's model because he was having neck problems from the guage strings he uses. Just some food for thought.

old Skool · Post by **old Skool** » Tuesday Feb 17, 2004

For versatility I use a rack system. Sansamp PSA-1 preamp, Digitech TSR24 effects & Mesa Boogie 2:90 for power. For cabinets I use 2 Boogie 2x12's loaded with an EVM12 & Celestion Vintage 30. This speaker combo really gives you great bottom end & clarity. I can get a ton of different tones out of this set up which works really well for covering different styles of material. I also run a HUSH (noise gate) in the rack which totally kills any hiss when I'm not playing. Most sound guys have told me it's the quietest rig they've ever heard. The Sansamp has a direct line out that sounds great (just ask Reddawg) and helps maintain a strong, clean signal to the board. For the "Nu-Metal" stuff I use a Schecter C-1 Elite with 10-56 gauge strings. I had to file the nut to accomodate the larger strings & set the bridge up a little but it works great (tuned 1/2 below drop D). I don't think I'd try cranking it up to standard tuning though, that's a lot of pressure on the neck.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Tuesday Feb 17, 2004

I'd like to have a Schecter C-1 myself, if only because they're damn sexy looking. Beautiful guitars!--->JMS

Sanctify · Post by **Sanctify** » Tuesday Feb 17, 2004

I use a schecter omen 6 for my drop C tunes... 60-10 guage... I modified the head nut (with a file) to accomodate the larger strings... and I also filed the saddles so they would be wider... also raised the bridge a bit... got the guitar for a great price and I only use it for those drop tunes... been using the same guage and tuning on it for a year... neck and intonation are still perfect... great guitar for drop tunes...

RamRod 1 · Post by **RamRod 1** » Tuesday Feb 17, 2004

I can't believe this board. Matt guy comes in and starts whinning about "Bassist have a little tech talk and I'm glad that they can blame their mistakes on the drummer." Then everyone jumps in and starts talking DEEP tech talk. Listen bro's. All this this tech talk sometimes gets to be a waist. I ain't saying tech stuff ain't always good, but go see Ben Dumm and the Maraudrers at the Castle Pub sometime and you'll get back to your soul.
Peace

Colton · Post by **Colton** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

a "waist" eh? i thought it was a left leg... shoulda been able to see that... STUPID ME STUPID ME

i like where my soul is, i dont want it back. I really dont mind it being stuck in my Fender HM strat... at all. Besides, it has good company there... with my heart

VINTAGE FENDERS RULE! ALL MARSHALL'S DROOL!!
ignore that if you like marshall's

please...

Matt_22 · Post by **Matt_22** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

Listen ramrod, first of all eveyone tries to blame mistakes everywhere but where its due. If anyone makes a mistake there is no blame but themselves. Thats all i was trying to say but i guess you don't read between the lines or even read at all from the character of your writing in your post. Second, if people want to talk tech its not your buisness and we are not talking to you. Finally, the marauders are a great band and i am friends with one of the former members of the band and have known him since he has been in the keystone allstars and before. These guys are not to thier soul as which you think they are. If they soaked any information off of thier former band mate these guys are more into "tech talk" than you think.

P.S> I'm not your bro!!

DMFJ03 · Post by **DMFJ03** » Wednesday Feb 18, 2004

I agree with Matt.

So maybe not being a gear head is down your alley. Perhaps you don't enjoy having a two hour car ride and talking about tone and not saying the same thing twice the whole time while in motion. There is also the possibility that hearing two grown men talking about which sounds better, the JCM 800 or a Mesa Dual Rectifier, doesn't float your boat. So you have made it clear that Tech Talk doesn't stir your stew, and that's fine. However, it is not fine when you decided to come and let your jaws flap about this, that, and the other thing. People who want to talk, will. People that don't, won't. People, who don't have anything to say, shouldn't.

Catch my drift there sparky?

ROCKPAGE

Questions for Guitarists

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