Warning ! Political Thread . What is (was) Bush Thinking ?

[Hawk]

More Americans have been KILLED in Iraq than in the twin towers of 9/11 !

The Shites and Sunnis never attacked the USA and they don't want us there in Iraq.

The U.S. forces are attacked 800 to 900 times a week. No sign of letting up.

Stay the course ?

Sedam Husain had NOTHING to do with 9/11 ! And had NO weapons of mass destruction !


"We got rid of a dictator who killed his own people." At What Cost ? Could there have been another way to get him ?

There is no end to this. These people have been fighting each other for hundreds and hundreds of years. You can't change the way they think.


Stay the course ?


If you can't comment in a mature manner , then don't comment at all please.



.

[Banned]

What should we do Hawk? Pull out and let Iran add another country that is under their control like Lebanon amd Syria. If Iran controls more of the Middle East, they will feel even more powerful and no one will stop them when they get their nuks up and armed (if they are not already).

Al queda put out a press release saying that we have killed 4000 terrorists in Iraq. I am glad our trained and armed soldiers are killing them over there than having them come here and fight on our soil against untrained civilians.

I do not have an answer, and there is certainly no easy answer.

[Bert|Evil]

If you can't comment in a mature manner , then don't comment at all please.



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If you can't think for yourself, don't bother posting this prattle!

[Hawk]

If you can't comment in a mature manner , then don't comment at all please.



.

If you can't think for yourself, don't bother posting this prattle!

Huh ?

The problem is too many people aren't thinking . My thoughts are my own. If you think talking about Americans being killed is PRATTLE, than I'm guessing you are one who cannot be reasoned with.

[bfoust]

If you can't comment in a mature manner , then don't comment at all please.



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If you can't think for yourself, don't bother posting this prattle!

That reply is ironic. Read it before you post...

I for one am Pro-Bush but I do think too many Americans are being killed over there. I'm not even going to suggest what I think should happen but there needs to be an end to this.

[Plastered Bastards]

More Americans have been KILLED in Iraq than in the twin towers of 9/11 !

The Shites and Sunnis never attacked the USA and they don't want us there in Iraq.

The U.S. forces are attacked 800 to 900 times a week. No sign of letting up.

Stay the course ?

Sedam Husain had NOTHING to do with 9/11 ! And had NO weapons of mass destruction !


"We got rid of a dictator who killed his own people." At What Cost ? Could there have been another way to get him ?

There is no end to this. These people have been fighting each other for hundreds and hundreds of years. You can't change the way they think.


Stay the course ?


If you can't comment in a mature manner , then don't comment at all please.



.

I thought this was Rockpage.net ?
Not, Face The Nation.
This is ridiculous,don't you know that 2 arguments that you can't win is either about Religion or Politics.
Tired subject here
Maybe it's just me

[Hawk]

More Americans have been KILLED in Iraq than in the twin towers of 9/11 !

The Shites and Sunnis never attacked the USA and they don't want us there in Iraq.

The U.S. forces are attacked 800 to 900 times a week. No sign of letting up.

Stay the course ?

Sedam Husain had NOTHING to do with 9/11 ! And had NO weapons of mass destruction !


"We got rid of a dictator who killed his own people." At What Cost ? Could there have been another way to get him ?

There is no end to this. These people have been fighting each other for hundreds and hundreds of years. You can't change the way they think.


Stay the course ?


If you can't comment in a mature manner , then don't comment at all please.



.

I thought this was Rockpage.net ?
Not, Face The Nation.
This is ridiculous,don't you know that 2 arguments that you can't win is either about Religion or Politics.
Tired subject here
Maybe it's just me

Musicians have been political for a long time. The section I'm in is called General Discussion.

I have ask JP if a separate section could be arranged for General Talk . Quite a bit in General Discussion is not about music.

Politics is ALL about winning .

[songsmith]

Hawk brought up two undeniable points. There were no WMD's. Bush says so... he said it was bad intel. Owned. No spinmeister can tell you otherwise. The other point is that Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. Think for yourself, and show me a connection. Hannitization denied.

This brings me to what I've learned about talk radio, and that is that they do not want you to dig too deeply into an issue, lest you see past their smoke and mirrors. Here's how they hoodoo you:

They take a small kernel of common sense (terrorism is bad, for example) and use it to pull in listeners ("Al Qaeda is a dangerous organization, and must be stopped"), then they dump vast monologues of GOP rhetoric ("Clinton should have stopped them, but was too immoral!") then throw in a buttload of Rove-inspired propaganda ("Thank God we have a brave leader like George W. Bush instead of the Socialist Fornicator Liberals!"), along with some playing to the base (Ten Commandments in public buildings, school prayer, Creationism). Before you know it, you're not noticing that we invaded the wrong country and all our manufacturing jobs are overseas.
Other tactics:

Deny-- "The economy is stronger than ever!"
Defame-- "Liberalism is a mental disease."
Deflate-- "Clinton accomplished nothing during his tenure." (Actually Clinton brought more people off welfare than any president, especially Bush)
Deflect-- "Some Democrats took money from Abramoff, too!"

The daytime attack machine will just sound dumb if the Dems take back the legislative branch. Oh, they'll still be there like they were during the Clinton administration, but they'll just be pathetically funny... like they did during the Clinton adminstration.
The political pendulum swings as always... will the Iraq bungle swing it back towards the left? We all know that if the Dems take Congress, they could translate that into enough momentum to take the presidency in '08 as well. For a very short time, we political moderates will swing some weight, too. Either way.
Look at how politicians are getting popped for e-mailing teenage boys, Rumsfeld's on the ropes, books coming out almost daily, Clinton's blowing a gasket on Fox... there's blood in the water, baby. No more deflective Natalee Holloway stories on Fox News... oh, life is brutal and life is good! Watch the daytimers squirm attempting to put positive spin on the bloodbath, and oh yeah, think for yourself.--------->JMS

[Hawk]

Well written songsmith ! I'm glad to see people looking beyond the rhetoric !

[lonewolf]

Water under the bridge is worthless to anyone but the fish under the bridge. I have a solution that could be put in place right now.

North: The Kurds are doing fine. They already handle most of their security.

South: A coalition of the local Shias and the Iraqi government can handle security. Move British troops out of populated areas to a fortified position near Kuwait.

Baghdad: Move all U.S. troops to a fortified position surrounded by a secure buffer zone to the southwest of the Baghdad airport. This will serve as the primary Iraqi training area as we immediately turn central Iraq's security over to the Iraqi government. If insurgents start a full scale uprising out in the open, US troops can be called upon to put it down. We need to at least find out what the Iraqi government can do.

As for politicians, anybody who wants to increase taxes on capital gains and dividends can suck me. Its the only real leverage Washington has on the economy and the 2nd best way to wreck the economy besides watching the fed raise interest rates.

Anything they say about the rest of the issues is pure bullshit, because neither party in Washington can or will do anything about them anyway.

[songsmith]

I have a solution that could be put in place right now.

North: The Kurds are doing fine. They already handle most of their security.

South: A coalition of the local Shias and the Iraqi government can handle security. Move British troops out of populated areas to a fortified position near Kuwait.

Baghdad: Move all U.S. troops to a fortified position surrounded by a secure buffer zone to the southwest of the Baghdad airport. This will serve as the primary Iraqi training area as we immediately turn central Iraq's security over to the Iraqi government. If insurgents start a full scale uprising out in the open, US troops can be called upon to put it down. We need to at least find out what the Iraqi government can do.

As for politicians, anybody who wants to increase taxes on capital gains and dividends can suck me. Its the only real leverage Washington has on the economy and the 2nd best way to wreck the economy besides watching the fed raise interest rates.

Anything they say about the rest of the issues is pure bullshit, because neither party in Washington can or will do anything about them anyway.

I agree that the Kurds can take care of themselves, the only way even Saddam could bust their asses was by gassing them. I'm not sure about the Shia in the south, though. I think primarily-Shiite Iran would wind up having too big a role in it if went that way... as well as the usual Sunni sour grapes throwing stones at the sectarian bee's nest.
I have a different plan for Baghdad... I'd move all troops to the buffer zone... all of them, fast, and in broad daylight. I'd make the withdrawal without warning, and very loud so everybody sees it. Give a little background chatter about a tactical nuclear strike, some "leaks" to the press, etc. Then complete quiet. Radio silence. Any US soldier outside would be in full NBC turnout gear, and would say nothing. Turn off the electricity. Then, again in broad daylight, a single B-52 drones across the sky. Dropping leaflets. In Arabic, the leaflets say,"America does not hate Islam. We want you to have your own country. However, some in your country want to kill us. Give them to us, or the next plane will not drop paper. Islam may someday have a bomb. We have all the rest of them. you have 24 hours." Then pop off a flash/bang firework for effect. Instead of the promised "streets running red with American blood," I believe the streets would run yellow with Insurgent urine. Actually, it could draw the turds out into the open, where Predators could zap them like ants in a magnifying glass. The Iraqi people would ferret out the rest, with the new motivation that they'll be vaporized if they don't. Oh sure, we wouldn't use a nuke, but hey... we have before, right? That's a Biggie-sized saber to rattle, I'd say.
So there you go. Decidedly non-Liberal, huh!
Hey, we had the entire world's sympathy and cooperation after 9/11, and squandered it by going to Iraq in the first place, so now they hate us. We can cry over that, or point out that we are still the 800 lb gorilla in the whole Armageddon department. I'm not about being a world bully, but being the world's policeman isn't working either, and we need to remind that a planet without a strong America is a third world kinda place to be.------------>JMS

[lonewolf]

We don't have a choice about working with the Shia in the south. Iraq is almost 2/3 Shiite and the south is all but Shiite. They have been and are still more cooperative than the Sunnis. There is very little insurgency in the south and a comparative minimum of US security is required. Why do you think the Brits are in the south? If the Shia majority decides to join with Iran, there is very little we can do about it. However, that's about as likely as Buddhist Japan merging with Buddhist China. Iran's ethnicity is almost entirely Persian. The Shias in Iraq are mostly Arab. Iranians may want to subjugate their Arab neighbors, but I doubt they'd ever go for a merger of equals.

John, what buffer zone are you talking about? Your scenario might make a decent storyline in a fiction movie, but it has no basis in reality. We can't and don't threaten nuclear attack every time things don't go our way in world events. In the eyes of many, such actions would only serve to justify Iran's nuclear program. I get amused every time somebody says we should turn the middle east into a glass parking lot. That's even more extreme than the attitude that got us stuck there in the 1st place.

[YankeeRose]

Hawk brought up two undeniable points. There were no WMD's. Bush says so... he said it was bad intel. Owned. No spinmeister can tell you otherwise. The other point is that Hussein had nothing to do with 9/11. Think for yourself, and show me a connection. Hannitization denied.

This brings me to what I've learned about talk radio, and that is that they do not want you to dig too deeply into an issue, lest you see past their smoke and mirrors. Here's how they hoodoo you:

They take a small kernel of common sense (terrorism is bad, for example) and use it to pull in listeners ("Al Qaeda is a dangerous organization, and must be stopped"), then they dump vast monologues of GOP rhetoric ("Clinton should have stopped them, but was too immoral!") then throw in a buttload of Rove-inspired propaganda ("Thank God we have a brave leader like George W. Bush instead of the Socialist Fornicator Liberals!"), along with some playing to the base (Ten Commandments in public buildings, school prayer, Creationism). Before you know it, you're not noticing that we invaded the wrong country and all our manufacturing jobs are overseas.
Other tactics:

Deny-- "The economy is stronger than ever!"
Defame-- "Liberalism is a mental disease."
Deflate-- "Clinton accomplished nothing during his tenure." (Actually Clinton brought more people off welfare than any president, especially Bush)
Deflect-- "Some Democrats took money from Abramoff, too!"

The daytime attack machine will just sound dumb if the Dems take back the legislative branch. Oh, they'll still be there like they were during the Clinton administration, but they'll just be pathetically funny... like they did during the Clinton adminstration.
The political pendulum swings as always... will the Iraq bungle swing it back towards the left? We all know that if the Dems take Congress, they could translate that into enough momentum to take the presidency in '08 as well. For a very short time, we political moderates will swing some weight, too. Either way.
Look at how politicians are getting popped for e-mailing teenage boys, Rumsfeld's on the ropes, books coming out almost daily, Clinton's blowing a gasket on Fox... there's blood in the water, baby. No more deflective Natalee Holloway stories on Fox News... oh, life is brutal and life is good! Watch the daytimers squirm attempting to put positive spin on the bloodbath, and oh yeah, think for yourself.--------->JMS

Bravo.
Along with "defaming"...call detractors traitors, say they are no better than terrorists, tell them to leave the country, etc. - all with the support of your leader. Heaven forbid anyone should not agree with the dictator's - oops, President's decisions. Iraq wasn't the first stop on the wild goose/Osama/WMD/terrorist chase after 9/11, that was Afghanistan...so, just where IS Osama? "4,000 terrorists" have been killed? REALLY? Oh, I feel so MUCH safer! :rolling my eyes: I say, after all of this time, is that all??? Think for yourself? Some never will.

[songsmith]

Today on talk radio: Rush says that, sure Foley is a baddie, but what about William Jefferson (D-louisiana) taking bribes? (DEFLECT) And everybody's known for at least a year, so if it's okay with Washington insiders, why is everyone blaming Hastert for knowing and doing nothing? (DEFLATE)
Hannity said, and I'm quoting here: "Why is this just coming out now, 5 weeks before an election? It's liberal career politicians playing politics." (DEFLECT) To which I ask, why did conservative career politicians cover up a barely-closeted congressman telling an underage boy to measure his willie? ... did they not want to lose an important seat in Congress, or was it because of the obvious hypocrisy of an author of anti-predator legislation being caught breaking the law HE WROTE, WHILE HE WAS WRITING IT. It looks kinda bad, doesn't it?
On local talk, one young Neo laughed off the suggestion that John Murtha was being "swiftboated," and in the same sentence, pointed out that speakers at the the Boot Murtha rally yesterday were decorated veterans and even a parent of Todd Beamer, from Flight 93... weren't those the exact same qualification the Swiftboat guys had?
On the CBS news, the Free Speech segment featured a parent of one of the Columbine victims, speaking on today's Amish school shootings. He said they were because liberals cheapen life via abortion. HUH? Do what now?

Blood in the water, my friends.

As for my Iraq plan, Wolf, we would pull out of Baghdad only, to a place just outside of town just outside the theoretical blast zone.
And no, we don't threaten nuclear winter everytime somebody pisses us off. That's why it would work. We're not a country for idle threats. It wouldn't justify Iran's nuke program, it would nullify it. They're not going to load their rifle very quickly with my rifle pressed against their cheek. Anyway, once the threat lessens, the power comes back on, and the good guys don't worry about speds with martyr deathwishes strapping bombs to unknowing citizens.
Part of Arab culture is dickering, dealing to the point of screwing you out of something. The few Arab folks I know (several pretty well) all cheerfully admit to this point... it's not racism, it's just how they roll, it's how they're taught. If we give them an out, they're smart enough to take it.-------->JMS

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

You know, the saddest thing is.. If a Neo-Conservative GOP member starts making attack ads, goes public in swiftboating, sucker punching, and attacking other candidates personally (ie: Karl Rove to John McCain in 2000) they are celebrated as a true leader, and a "spiritual soul"..

if a "Liberal" or Democrat or even a moderate - speaks out on behalf of their personal beliefs, and the beliefs of the majority of this nation and this world. They are called liberal, socialist, a danger to society, a "pussy" and are subject to the same ridicule, that the aforementioned Neo-Con puts their machine to..

what my party, the Democratic party needs to do, is take a fucking risk.. none of this "half-ass John Kerry" bullshit, yes I voted Kerry.. because John F. Kerry is an intellegent, well thought man.. but he cant campaign for a fuck. What this country needs, is somebody like Barak Obama, or Howard Dean.. going city to city doing the exact same thing as these Neo-Cons do, and if the Neo-Con machine says "look at this filth and mud they're slinging" thats when said "Liberal" goes public and says "yeah, but we're not the ones going around questioning one's patriotism by association 20 years ago. We are not the ones questioning one's morality based on whether they spend their Sunday mornings talking to an invisible man.. Morality is not religious preferance.. it's responsibility, to your community, to your family, to yourself.. not to your church, not to you "God". We are not the ones who push our failures onto the previous Administration. We are merely answering their call. And we are certainly not the ones running from service and then questioning one's service in Vietnam, while we were on the sidelines hiding behind daddy, and the oil company's skirts. Our men serve.. "

John Kerry served.. the Senator from Georgia who lost an arm and leg served (his name is slipping my mind).. where was Bush, where was Cheney during Vietnam? Oh yeah.. one man got out of serving, and one got involved w/ James Baker while in Alabama.

The Flight Suit? you know.. if I were on that ship.. I dont give a fuck if I would have gotten shot, or courtmashalled, or dishonorably discharged or what. If that fucking charlatan jumped out of a plane in a military jumpsuit on my watch.. I would have let him known whats up.

it may not work.. but it's certainly better than "I've got a plan..." and then show NOTHING.

[Hawk]

Some great , well thought out post guys ! So well written I don't have much to add.

I'm glad to see you (you plural) can see and recognise Rush's spin. How many people believe every word he says ? Too many I'm afraid.

[lonewolf]

As for my Iraq plan, Wolf, we would pull out of Baghdad only, to a place just outside of town just outside the theoretical blast zone.
And no, we don't threaten nuclear winter everytime somebody pisses us off. That's why it would work. We're not a country for idle threats.

The proverbial snowball's chance in hell. Nobody will believe that after 60 years, the USA is just suddenly going to nuke an occupied country that poses little threat to our homeland. As soon as the insurgents see the vacuum left by the US Troops, they'd rush in and there would be very little that the surprised and uninformed Iraqi government could do about it. They'd call our bluff, anarchy would follow and we'd lose all credibility. It would be, in fact, an idle threat and everybody would know it.

We handed out idle threats like business cards in the 90s. We can't use them anymore.

It wouldn't justify Iran's nuke program, it would nullify it. They're not going to load their rifle very quickly with my rifle pressed against their cheek.

Maybe in your eyes and many other Americans', but the rest of the world doesn't see it that way. We can't even get all the "civilized" countries on the UN security council to deal with Iran for their nuclear antics.

A nuclear threat against a 3rd world country is no threat at all because they know we'd never pull the trigger. The gun at their cheek is unloaded.

If we lean on Iran with nuclear threats the rest of the world would take a serious look at nuclear arms to protect themselves from the threats from the USA.

Anyway, once the threat lessens, the power comes back on, and the good guys don't worry about speds with martyr deathwishes strapping bombs to unknowing citizens.
Part of Arab culture is dickering, dealing to the point of screwing you out of something. The few Arab folks I know (several pretty well) all cheerfully admit to this point... it's not racism, it's just how they roll, it's how they're taught. If we give them an out, they're smart enough to take it.-------->JMS

That is correct. Without the presence of a prepared military, the insurgents will move from covert suicide bombing into open rebellion.

I worked with many Arabs and Iranians for 7 years. My boss's name was Ali. I understand your point about dickering very well and would add that stern language and direct threats are a part of this process. However, never think that the word NUCLEAR is an effective bargaining chip, because nobody and I mean NOBODY will buy it...unless...

we first make it a credible threat with a modern display of our willingness to bomb a city into the stone age...where do you suggest? Tehran? Baghdad? P'yŏngyang?

[lonewolf]

Some great , well thought out post guys ! So well written I don't have much to add.

I'm glad to see you (you plural) can see and recognise Rush's spin. How many people believe every word he says ? Too many I'm afraid.

I haven't heard more than a few sentences from him in 9 years. He can be very entertaining, though.

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

I haven't heard more than a few sentences from him in 9 years. He can be very entertaining, though.

I enjoyed his commentary on Donovan McNabb when he was on ESPN Sunday NFL Countdown.. real moment of genius there on his behalf, wouldn't you say?

[lonewolf]

I haven't heard more than a few sentences from him in 9 years. He can be very entertaining, though.

I enjoyed his commentary on Donovan McNabb when he was on ESPN Sunday NFL Countdown.. real moment of genius there on his behalf, wouldn't you say?

That was one of those few sentences that I heard. Yep, that's real entertainment genius for ya.

[songsmith]

unless...

we first make it a credible threat with a modern display of our willingness to bomb a city into the stone age...where do you suggest? Tehran? Baghdad? P'yŏngyang?

That's precisely where I was going with this. Pick an atoll, though, not an occupied city.
Of course you're going to point out all the nuclear test bans etc.... well, we don't follow the Kyoto Protocol because not doing so benefits big business. The rest of the world knows that, according to Deutch Welle or the BBC.
With my plan, the War On Terror would actually be a war on terror, instead of an undermanned, poorly planned junta in the wrong country. I agree, we can't leave Iraq, and that's what makes it so sad and frustrating. Of course my plan doesn't stand a snowball's chance. It's tough, quick, and nobody could politically gain from it.------>JMS

[lonewolf]

unless...

we first make it a credible threat with a modern display of our willingness to bomb a city into the stone age...where do you suggest? Tehran? Baghdad? P'yŏngyang?

That's precisely where I was going with this. Pick an atoll, though, not an occupied city.

Sorry, an atoll doesn't cut it. Bombing an island paradise is nothing but a test detonation and won't convince anybody that we are anything but a country that breaks treaties. As far as I know, we don't have any treaties with Iraq or Iran.

Its very simple. If you want to threaten a population center with nuclear weapons, you aren't credible unless you have recently bombed a population center with nuclear weapons.

Nuke em'? Its just a cliche and a punchline for glass parking lot jokes.

[songsmith]

Nuke em'? Its just a cliche and a punchline for glass parking lot jokes.

Tell that to Hiroshima and Nagasaki. ------->JMS

[lonewolf]

I'm gonna have to give you an Indian name like:

Johnny Mushroom Cloud.

[Banned]

Yo itz da G to da O to da E in da hizzle. I say we get our gats an ice dhose motha fuckas. Yeah biotch!