People's mentality

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Saturday Jul 29, 2006

In light of the recent posts about new bands and what to get paid and Tampa bars and the like:

Here is my wife's mentality. If a GREAT (but not wll-known yet) band was playing and there was no cover and at the same time a well know group was playing with a cover, she would go to see the well-known band.

She would do this even if the club with the GREAT but not-so-well-known band was offering greatly reduced drink prices. Unfortunately more people than you think have this same mentality as my wife.

It's something everyone has to deal with, but I liked Lisa's point that if she has a new band---and they're good---she'll pay them and most likely try to work with them to help both sides develop into a money making opportunity. That's a cool attitude to have and one that more club-owners/managers should have.

But unfortunately, that's the exception, not the rule. This is just one more example as to why we should all work together.

Just thought I'd get that off my chest.

MeYatch · Post by **MeYatch** » Saturday Jul 29, 2006

buggles, unlike the way I may have come off in the other post, I agree with you completely.

its up to bars, and bands to work out the agreement that works for all parties involved.

I also have no problems taking my knocks to get my foot in the door somewhere. I understand that some bars pay a straight up fee, and some pay you the door, I'm not going to refuse a place based on money, thats not what its about.

a door agreement probably works out best for everyone involved, there is little risk for the bar, and when the band becomes more of a draw, they aren't shafted in the long run.

However, its my opinion that bands willing to play for nothing, or for pocket change in order to get more exposure, are hurting every other band in the process.

Its up to a band to figure out what venues they will be successful in, and its up to a bar to figure out what bands will help them out.

like I said before, I think the problem with bands feeling they havn't been paid what they deserve and bars thinking the bands are demanding exorbitant fees is a problem with communication. If one of the parties is misrepresenting something, everyone suffers, bands get no exposure, or money, and bars don't get any money either.

If a bar is willing to take a chance on a band they don't know anything about, quite frankly, thats not my problem. but if a band comes, and brings the rock, they do not deserve to be paid $50.

We show up at approximatly 7 - 7:30, load in all our equipment, set up our PA, sound check, etc etc, then rock for four hours, then load everything back up, by the time we are done, its 3 oclock.

we've put in an 8 hour day, $50 among five members is $10 for 8 hours, thats $1.25 an hour. Its completely insulting to everyone. I do not expect to become a millionare at this, but i do not expect to work my ass off, and then be insulted for it either.

however, back to your wife's point, thats not how I roll, but I do realize that most people probably feel the same way as her.

I take every oppuratunity I can get to check out other bands, preferably ones I've never seen before.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Saturday Jul 29, 2006

I have question? If someone can answer it without being a smart ass about it here goes

Why do all you people play in bands?
is it for the money? or because you like to play?

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

gazoo17 wrote:I have question? If someone can answer it without being a smart ass about it here goes

Why do all you people play in bands?
is it for the money? or because you like to play?

because we like to play, the money is a nice little side note. If we would put as much effort into something more financially worthwhile we would all be millionaires.

Is there anyone out there that hates playing music and just does it for the money ? I didn't think so. The money is the last reason to do this.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

tonefight wrote:
gazoo17 wrote:I have question? If someone can answer it without being a smart ass about it here goes

Why do all you people play in bands?
is it for the money? or because you like to play?
because we like to play, the money is a nice little side note. If we would put as much effort into something more financially worthwhile we would all be millionaires.

Is there anyone out there that hates playing music and just does it for the money ? I didn't think so. The money is the last reason to do this.

if what you say is true then you need to go back and reread the topic called A LITTLE HELP FROM BANDS THAT ARE GIGING because from where i stand i think you all need to look at where your at and the area
we live in. I think to many people on here are about the money. if thats not true then they wouldn't be worried about the club owners srewing them, they would be happy just to play. I agree that you need to be payed for what you do but remember we are in altoona and it sucks here. there is no money, people are broke and on welfare,and have nothing and I think the bar owners are losing their assess on a day by day bases.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

Firstly, this post was to show an example of why it is hard, especially for new bands, to get noticed. Band need to work with each other and bands and clubowners need to strike a happy medium somewhere.

The mentality my wife has, and she's generally a good person, but the attitude is unfortunately the way a lot of people think which makes it tough for new bands to succeed. This ties in with the last 3 or 4 posts that were on here and I was just voicing my opinion, again possibly looking for other opinions/solutions/ideas. Nothing more.

A new topic should be started about fun vs. money. You'll find all kinds of opinions on that.

MeYatch · Post by **MeYatch** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

gazoo17 wrote:
if what you say is true then you need to go back and reread the topic called A LITTLE HELP FROM BANDS THAT ARE GIGING because from where i stand i think you all need to look at where your at and the area
we live in. I think to many people on here are about the money. if thats not true then they wouldn't be worried about the club owners srewing them, they would be happy just to play. I agree that you need to be payed for what you do but remember we are in altoona and it sucks here. there is no money, people are broke and on welfare,and have nothing and I think the bar owners are losing their assess on a day by day bases.

if you had read the thread, you would know that my indignation has nothing to do with money, and everything to do with respect.

I refuse to devalue myself, my time, my band, and my music by playing for peanuts.

bfoust · Post by **bfoust** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

If the well-known band was Dave Matthews Band, I'd actually rather go see a DJ.

Just my $0.02 pre-tax.

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

gazoo17 wrote: if what you say is true then you need to go back and reread the topic called A LITTLE HELP FROM BANDS THAT ARE GIGING because from where i stand i think you all need to look at where your at and the area
we live in. I think to many people on here are about the money. if thats not true then they wouldn't be worried about the club owners srewing them, they would be happy just to play. I agree that you need to be payed for what you do but remember we are in altoona and it sucks here. there is no money, people are broke and on welfare,and have nothing and I think the bar owners are losing their assess on a day by day bases.

I agree with MeYatch, Gazoo. I've always been up front with people, I play to exist, but I am also in it for the money. I don't care if a bar owner is losing their ass, if you book my band for a set fee, then pay the set fee, period. An agreement is an agreement, and I'm not driving all over God's green earth for ten frickin' bucks. I know what my time is worth, and I won't play for peanuts, I've done it too many times before.

Look at it this way: You're in a band, and you get booked at a bar for a set fee of $500 for a 10PM-1:30AM show on a Saturday night. You show up at 6:30-7PM, set up full PA, light show, and the stage gear, tune up, make sure gear works, soundcheck, then play 3 full sets, then tear everything down afterwards.

The bar has light attendance that night.

Should YOU, the performer, take a cut in pay since the crowd was light? In most cases, and I do stress not all cases, but most, I say NO. You (the musician) showed up on time, and did your job to the utmost of your ability. Why should you bite the bullet? That's like going into your full-time job, putting in 40 hours, and then having to take a pay cut since the company didn't do well that week. It's not my problem.

That said, I do try to be fair with the bar owners that I deal with, and all of them are great people. But there's no way that I'm gonna come play for 10 or 20 bucks. It's not worth it to me, when I could be spending time with my family instead.

(NOTE: The previous views are solely mine, and not that of my band. Some folks think I'm arrogant for acting on the preceeding opinion, and that's fine. I'm okay with it. I don't consider myself arrogant, but you are, of course, free to think what you want. Thank you.)

Plastered Bastards · Post by **Plastered Bastards** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

I play because I love it.The money is nice but the reward is so much better.Like when the UPS guy shows up at your door and you hold the vinyl or cd in your hands.The touring is great,nothing like jumping in a van with your closest friends or enemies(whatever the case may be)and going around the country playing for people.Or jumping on a plane and going overseas to rock out.I know I may not have been doing this as long as some people on here,but I have been doing it long enough to know when not to take it for granted.Because it could all end tomorrow.
So the money thing is a good thing,everybody wants to get paid.
But I just do it because I LOVE IT!!!!!!
Cheers!!!!!!!!!!!!

HurricaneBob · Post by **HurricaneBob** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

Should YOU, the performer, take a cut in pay since the crowd was light? In most cases, and I do stress not all cases, but most, I say NO. You (the musician) showed up on time, and did your job to the utmost of your ability. Why should you bite the bullet? That's like going into your full-time job, putting in 40 hours, and then having to take a pay cut since the company didn't do well that week. It's not my problem.

If you dont work with the club on a bad night, i doubt the owner will have you back. Do we really have enough venues around here to be doing that.

You guys who dont work with a club in the end see how many venues you have left to play.

If i didnt have a good crowd then i dont feel i am worthy of a full pay if it hurts the club.

Thats my take.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

I'll agree with Hurricane. Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do. If it leads to a better working relationship, that's always a bonus.

And 'Toona, I don't think you're arrogant. I feel exactly the same way.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

I play for free at least as often as I get paid. I'm proud to sit in with some of the best bands around, and though I seldom get paid for that, it's extremely artistically satisfying. On the other hand, club owners do not run clubs for free at all. I see the whole money thing as a game... same with my day job in sales. It's a game where I try to get you to give money for something. I'm not ripping you off or anything, I try my best to give you something in return that's good, but the money is part of the game. I'd rather play for free than for $150. Freebies actually benefit someone, and the cheapos mean you're taking it in the butt from someone.--------->JMS

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

I think Gazoo u will find we all have our own reasons...

while I am perfectly content with playing for free, I expect free beverages, and the possibilty of at least gas money.

If I am going to pay to play an establishment, I might as well rent a local hall and entertain myself, or set up a gig in a basement or field with a keg...

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Jul 30, 2006

I agree with most of you on here about the money thing, but i have read so many times from so many different people complaining about money and not getting payed that's why I asked the question about why you play.

with that said: here is my take on this for those of you like toonarock guy I would say if you feel that way get a contract, a contract where you are paid a certain amount regardless of how many people show up, but with comes the fact you might not being playing there that often but you will have more time for your family, I also agree that for some, you may need to work with the bar owner on the fact that if you don't bring in a large crowd, the bar don't make money and you may have to take a cut in pay just to keep you on the return list. for everbody else its nice to see you play because you want to play and the money is "extra", and yes free beer should be included, so, with so many bands and so few places to play I guess you could say it's a matter of the "love of the music and entertaining" or the "love of the money". Which takes me back to my original question, "why do you play". and that is merely a question that all musicians need to ask themselves.

Mistress_DB · Post by **Mistress_DB** » Monday Jul 31, 2006

the bigger bands always do a contract when playing a venue. wether it's a small club or a large arena. pay is negotiated up front and once signed the club is contractually obligated to pay up wether they had a draw for the night or not.

contracts sometimes can be a good idea. Esp if you're playing out of town at a new venue you don't know alot about.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Monday Jul 31, 2006

Sorry, but contracts don't always work. An agency band usually has a contract with a club through the agency. Most of the time it's honored, but sometimes it's not. Not all of the "bigger" bands use contracts.

Having Joe at the local tavern sign a contract for the piddlance you're going to make there on Friday nite is ludicrous. You'll spend more money trying to fight a broken contract than you would have made that nite. If you can't strike up a mutually acceptable deal with owners like Joe, then maybe you need to rethink what you're doing. If you're happy playing for nothing or barely nothing, that's up to you. Do what you have to do to accomplish your goal. If that's what it takes for awhile, then so be it. But if it's been 5 years and you're still doing that, then I think something's wrong. New bands=low pay no matter how good you are.

Free beer is not a prerequisite. Talk to the owner that tells you he's paying you to play not to drink---there's a BUNCH of those out there. Anything "free" a club provides to you is a bonus and should be treated as such. Don't like that? Then bring your own (discreetly, of course).

I play because I enjoy the equipment. I enjoy covering, performing and trying to write songs. I also believe in getting paid for my services. If you're willing to meet my price and strike up a deal, great. If not, that's fine too. I do make a living at this so the money is important. Not the most important, but important nonetheless.

Does that make me a sellout? Maybe. Call me from your work phone and we can talk about it. If you get my machine, I'm either rehearsing, grilling some burgers, or in my pool.

Mistress_DB · Post by **Mistress_DB** » Monday Jul 31, 2006

well see I'm not talking about contracting a gig that pays peanuts. I'm talking about the contract being a good idea if the club is promising big bucks (we're talking say 1500 and over) . Yanno best to at least do your best to cover your ass in case the club owner decides to be a dick.

VENTGtr · Post by **VENTGtr** » Monday Jul 31, 2006

"Why do all you people play in bands?
is it for the money? or because you like to play?"

I think this a good question. I do this because I absolutely love it and since I was a
little kid dreamt of doing it. After many years of it, it's still always better than you thought
it would be when you're up there playing, or recording some new idea trying to make it
into a cool tune.

That being said, there's nothing wrong with liking to make some money at it. Some
people on here do this as their job. Even if you don't, what you're doing and how you
do it on any given night effects SOMEONE'S job and livelihood.

There seems to be an idea, one which I guess I used to hold as well, that if you LIKE
the idea of making some money at it, or just don't want to play some place because
you won't make a few bucks some place, it's devaluing the integity. I've come to realize
that that's not the case and it's really not up to me to judge why anyone does anything
(Don't mean others are, just pointing it out).

I'll still play for free if I feel it's worthwhile but I'm not going to feel bad for liking the idea
that a good night money-wise can be a useful supplemental income.

If it gets so I just don't like doing it, I'll prolly stop. But, say I needed some extra cash and
the chance came to make it playing, I would probably do it. AND, probably have such a
great time I'd get back into play. Seems to be the way it works.

DaveP.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Jul 31, 2006

VENTGtr wrote:"Even if you don't, what you're doing and how you
do it on any given night effects SOMEONE'S job and livelihood.

I think that is something that we all need to keep in mind. Once you step into a club, you are enterting the business world. And I don't care who you are - You are going to have to comprimise something along the way the moment you take your band out of the garage/basement.

I'm not going to feel bad for liking the idea
that a good night money-wise can be a useful supplemental income.

Agreed. Nobody should ever feel bad for accepting financial reward for the hardwork that they do - And music, whether polka or metal, original or cover, is a lot of hardwork. Last time I checked, our country had a capitalist economic infrastructure.

Bottom Line - I play music for a myriad of reasons. My father was a gigging musician, so when I was 14 sitting in my bedroom with my Fender Musicmaster, learning how to play a walking bass line, I had every intention of joining a band with the purpose of playing clubs which would result in financial award. I grew up in a household with a semi-pro musician, so for me, that was "just the way things are." I wanted to start playing in clubs when I was 16, but had to wait until I was 18, so I wasn't breaking any laws.

But really, if I had to tell someone why I enjoy playing music, then they wouldn't understand anyways. I think that most of the musicians on this site would agree with that statement. I've said it before, but I'll say it again. I honestly cannot fathom how someone can not be a musician and still live a fulfilling life. That should say something about how I feel when it comes to playing music.

It's obvious that I love to wax philosophy, but philosophizing on why we all play music is just a waste of time. It's something that shouldn't even need to be discussed. I never felt the need to justify anything I do to anyone, and I'm not going to start right now. I think that the term "sellout" is thrown around way too much in these business by pretentious people who need to justify why they like or dislike something. Of course, jealously plays a part in there too. Anyone who stays in music purely for money is fucking crazy, because there's just way too much bullshit in this business to stay just for monetary reasons.

VENTGtr · Post by **VENTGtr** » Monday Jul 31, 2006

Well said man.

DaveP.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Monday Jul 31, 2006

VENTGtr wrote:There seems to be an idea, one which I guess I used to hold as well, that if you LIKE
the idea of making some money at it, or just don't want to play some place because
you won't make a few bucks some place, it's devaluing the integity. I've come to realize
that that's not the case and it's really not up to me to judge why anyone does anything
(Don't mean others are, just pointing it out).

You know, making money doesn't just benefit the guys in the band individually. It benefits the music. The longer you can stay out of the red, the longer you'll be able to continue making your music. The more you are able support yourself doing it, the more time you'll be able to spend doing it {points jealous finger at RobTheDrummer}.

It's like raising a child. You don't need to be rich to be a good parent, and having a ton of money doesn't automatically make you a better parent. Love is free. But there are many things you'll want to provide your children that are not free.

I don't know about you, but I don't want my kids to be raised in a cardboard box with holes in their shoes. The same goes for my music.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Monday Jul 31, 2006

well see I'm not talking about contracting a gig that pays peanuts. I'm talking about the contract being a good idea if the club is promising big bucks (we're talking say 1500 and over.)

Thats's fine and dandy, but you can still get dicked. I see your point and understand it, but unfortunately I've been there, done that and still got hosed many times. Agency contracts are a little more intimidating because the club is dealing with an agency. But in that case, there seldom is a problems anyway. Like I always say, you can try and if it works, hey, great.

Another point is it really bothering people that some musicians want to play for money? If they can get it, great. Everyone has their own reasons, so really, as long as people are playing and trying, who cares?

VENTGtr · Post by **VENTGtr** » Monday Jul 31, 2006

"The longer you can stay out of the red, the longer you'll be able to continue making your music. The more you are able support yourself doing it, the more time you'll be able to spend doing it"

and

"Another point is it really bothering people that some musicians want to play for money? If they can get it, great. Everyone has their own reasons, so really, as long as people are playing and trying, who cares?"

Absolutely.