YP now has house sound??!!

Craven Sound · Post by **Craven Sound** » Wednesday Jul 19, 2006

After a lot of "you gotta turn down", it appears that Frank has hired and/or bought a system. Does anyone have specifics?

BDR · Post by **BDR** » Wednesday Jul 19, 2006

Not sure but I'll find out ... we play there in a few weeks.

r:>)

ASB10 · Post by **ASB10** » Wednesday Jul 19, 2006

Probably a good idea for several reasons.

First, Frank is notorious for telling bands and sound guys to turn it down, And also for telling drummers that they are playing too hard. This will allow him to have more control.

Second, He is turning YP into a first class music establishment, and the crowds are very good. Every band on Rockpage should inquire there about playing as Frank is very generous for good nights, very up front with bands about rules and needs, and he is a good bar owner to deal with. And there are a lot off assholes out there, but Frank is a good guy in my opinion. If you draw for Frank, he puts you on monthly and pays well and treats you well.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Wednesday Jul 19, 2006

ASB10 wrote: Second, He is turning YP into a first class music establishment, and the crowds are very good. Every band on Rockpage should inquire there about playing as Frank is very generous for good nights, very up front with bands about rules and needs, and he is a good bar owner to deal with. And there are a lot off assholes out there, but Frank is a good guy in my opinion. If you draw for Frank, he puts you on monthly and pays well and treats you well.

Agreed 100%. Frank's been fantastic to work with. When we first came in there, his crowds didn't know us and the numbers weren't that great, but he was patient and stuck with us to a point where we've been a solid draw there for years.

The volume limit is frustrating at first, but if you cooperate with your soundguy (or his) to a get a good mix, the crowd is still responsive and fun. It definitely requires some restraint on everyone's part!

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Wednesday Jul 19, 2006

When I played my first and last show with HF1 there, it was a total bitch bringin all that shit it. Good to hear he has in house!

onetooloud · Post by **onetooloud** » Wednesday Jul 19, 2006

Ev tops possibly T251 cabs berringer single 18 subs. Great top boxes but the subs? Amps, Console, Wedges no idea.

Thats what I know right now.

Odd thing Frank called me this morning for numbers to a band I have dates with from Allentown. He never said a thing.

I know this inhouse Pa thing is great news to some people, but for myself it sucks. Not for the most obivous reason. I love to see something different each week not the same old stage layout. Different pa and a different light show mixes it up a bit.

This was one of the only places in the Johnstown, Ebensburg area to see that. At least in a halfway good sounding room.

Now I'll be the same thing week after week. It will however even the playing field eveyone will be equal and the true talent will now shine.

I can't wait to hear it.

I feel this is as much a chance of the beginning as it is the end.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Wednesday Jul 19, 2006

I can't wait to play to this room! Plus, it will be my official birthday gig (even though my birthday is actually two day's prior to our gig at YP). Luckily, our sound tech has run bands at YP before, so he knew all about the volume issues with Frank beforehand. Frank does seem like a stand up club owner. We were actually scheduled to play the 29th, but there was a scheduling conflict with Hello, Vixen, but Frank made sure that we didn't get screwed, so we're there the following week instead.

LHSL · Post by **LHSL** » Wednesday Jul 19, 2006

onetooloud wrote:Ev tops possibly T251 cabs berringer single 18 subs. Great top boxes but the subs? Amps, Console, Wedges no idea.

Thats what I know right now.

I know a little bit about this system and who it was purchased/rented from. When I saw it in use:

EV tops and behr subs like Ray says. A Behringer amp for monitors, a Crown Mac 2400 that looked like it's seen better days on tops. And an QSC RMX5050 for the subs. Behringer crossover.

Front of house was a 16 ch A&H mixwizard, digitech delay, an yamaha REV100, behringer compressor and I think gates. Don't remember the EQ.

Wedges were little plastic box EVs.

So... a few nice things, and a lot of not so nice things. How it was set up was the worst part. Comp inserted on main mix, starting around -10 to -15 with a 3-4:1. I was seeing it go into 20dB of compression pretty much anytime talked into a mic. Nasty. The behringer crosover was boosted 10dB on input and 10dB on output with a HORRIBLE hiss coming from the tops. Can anyone say "gain structure?"

The band I know that used it had a heck of a time with it.

P.S. Frank Rocks. One of the nicer guys I deal with around here. Sadly, I think this PA was a step in the wrong direction. JMHO.

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Wednesday Jul 19, 2006

Hopefully someone will be there to run it that knows what they are doing, I think house systems are a great idea but the "house" should also have someone who know the system and its quirks. Then again a competent sound guy should be able to jump into it.

I wonder how the bigger "agency" bands are gonna like the in house when they are used to bringing in a pile of stuff?

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Thursday Jul 20, 2006

Back in the 80s, everyone had a PA. There were no rental companies. The early 90s came around and there were some people from defunct bands that would let you "borrow" pieces of gear. Then more and more you started to see people with full PA for hire.

Clubs started to utilize in-house sysems and would tell the bands, Hey, you don't have to pay for sound so here's this much LESS money. As far as the band was concerned, basically they made about the same since there was no real overhead for these in-house clubs, but the thought of putting that extra "sound money" in your pockets lasted only for a few moments.

Will the great band "X" from Harrisburg who is with that agency get a little less money?

Will bands that never could play YP either because they didn't have PA or couldnt afford it---will they now be heard?

Will some idiot try to overpower those subs only to find paper hanging from the grillcloth or screens? You know someone will fuck it up eventually.

Even with the not-so-great stuff, a quality engineer should be able to get a decent sound out of this system. Decent = OK, average, tolerable.

If it helps with the volume so one more place can stay open and have live entertainment, I'm all for it. Hopefully it will turn into a win-win situation for everyone.

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Thursday Jul 20, 2006

bugglez24 wrote:Back in the 80s, everyone had a PA. There were no rental companies. The early 90s came around and there were some people from defunct bands that would let you "borrow" pieces of gear. Then more and more you started to see people with full PA for hire.

Clubs started to utilize in-house sysems and would tell the bands, Hey, you don't have to pay for sound so here's this much LESS money. As far as the band was concerned, basically they made about the same since there was no real overhead for these in-house clubs, but the thought of putting that extra "sound money" in your pockets lasted only for a few moments.

Will the great band "X" from Harrisburg who is with that agency get a little less money?

Will bands that never could play YP either because they didn't have PA or couldnt afford it---will they now be heard?

Will some idiot try to overpower those subs only to find paper hanging from the grillcloth or screens? You know someone will fuck it up eventually.

Even with the not-so-great stuff, a quality engineer should be able to get a decent sound out of this system. Decent = OK, average, tolerable.

If it helps with the volume so one more place can stay open and have live entertainment, I'm all for it. Hopefully it will turn into a win-win situation for everyone.

Good points Scott, i just think an in house engineer should go with it. And ya know what, I play to play not carry gear so I wish everyone went this way

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Thursday Jul 20, 2006

Yeah, I will agree. Because even though Frank owns or rents the stuff, who says somebody else won't start turning it up. He should get an in-house guy that way he would have the control he's looking for.

I play to play too, but hauling gear is sometimes a necessary evil that we could all do without.

LHSL · Post by **LHSL** » Thursday Jul 20, 2006

bugglez24 wrote:Even with the not-so-great stuff, a quality engineer should be able to get a decent sound out of this system. Decent = OK, average, tolerable.

I think you are right. A well known engineer in the live sound community once told me "I fear no system."

In general, I feel the same way (given enough time to adjust things properly). That said, low quality or a lack of equipment altogether, can make getting a good mix challenging, when there is a SPL limit put in place by the owner or what have you. Now, I'm not the type to mix at 125 dB all night. That said, in most of these rooms you are limited with what you can do by two things. The volume of: 1) the drummer, and 2) the guitar player(s).

Stage volume is everything. If you have 110dB comming of the stage, then you are basically forced to mix around that level to get it sounding even. However, most people will "percieve" something is loud (a better word would be annoying) if the mids are overly predominant. Low end adds percieved volume no matter the balance of the mix, but a mix with all mids is just awful. It's all about balance. The more balanced the mix, the less annoying and the more natural sounding. A mix with all guitars and all snare will sound very bad.

Also, small, underpowered systems with cabinets that have lots of 2nd and 3rd harmonics will muddy the sound. Behringer is known for a lot of things. Building quality subwoofers is not one of them.

So in the end, could you make a system like this sound balanced? Yes, to a limit. And if the band on stage plays beyond that limit, well, good luck.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Thursday Jul 20, 2006

LHSL wrote:

Stage volume is everything. If you have 110dB comming of the stage, then you are basically forced to mix around that level to get it sounding even.

I still can't believe how many musicians don't understand the concept of stage volume (how 'bout it Ray

). If you have full production and a sound engineer, use them for what they're there for. old sKool and I wash across the stage with our cabinets rather than the traditional way of facing them out towards the audience. That way we can keep our stage volume low while being able to hear ourselves, we don't overpower the front of house, and we're not out of phase with the front of house speakers.

LHSL · Post by **LHSL** » Thursday Jul 20, 2006

bassist_25 wrote: old sKool and I wash across the stage with our cabinets rather than the traditional way of facing them out towards the audience. That way we can keep our stage volume low while being able to hear ourselves, we don't overpower the front of house

Ugh, FINALLY. Someone that understands. Bless you Bassist_25. Another thing that works real well is putting the half stacks or combo amps on a chair/box/something to get them from pointing at your knees.

I worked with one local guitar player who just sets his little 50w Mesa Boogie Mark III up like a monitor. Points it right as his face. I actually have trouble getting ENOUGH signal from him sometimes. It sounds sweet thought, and those are the nights I get compliments on the monitor mixes because everyone can actually hear them over the guitars.

Stage volume is a dangerous game, and over time it will ruin your hearing. The collective has been warned.

and we're not out of phase with the front of house speakers.

This can actually be fixed by delaying the mains. I do this as a matter of practice no matter the size of the stage. It really tightens up the mix, especially bass guitar.

onetooloud · Post by **onetooloud** » Friday Jul 21, 2006

Doesn't everyone have ears in the back of their legs?

Gotta go with LHSL on this one raise that amp up a bit. Also move it back as far as possible it'll open up some and be much easier to hear. You wouldn't think a few feet would matter but it does.

I've been telling people to wash the stage like Bassist said for years. Did it tonight as a matter a fact. Works like a charm. Sometimes hiding an amp behind the mains helps too.

Oh by the way I think I know what show your talking about Paul don't I ??

Also wouldn't 2nd order harmonics be considered even order and be a little bit desirable.

Stage volume sure does set the FOH levels and Frank understands this to a degree. Not only do drum levels and amps on stage matter but monitor levels as well.

LHSL · Post by **LHSL** » Friday Jul 21, 2006

onetooloud wrote:Doesn't everyone have ears in the back of their legs?

Gotta go with LHSL on this one raise that amp up a bit. Also move it back as far as possible it'll open up some and be much easier to hear. You wouldn't think a few feet would matter but it does.

I forgot about mentioning moving it back far. This is especially true of bass cabinets. It takes a good 20-30 feet for the wave to develop off the front of the cabinet. If you feel like your bass rig has no volume, try moving it further away. You could just be in a big null where there is no power.

Also wouldn't 2nd order harmonics be considered even order and be a little bit desirable.

Well, all I know is when the bassist plays a 80Hz note, I don't want just as much 160 coming out of the thing too.

It sounds like it would be beneficial, and in many ways, it does increase the loudness of the cabinets. However, IMO it's distortion and distortion in a PA system is bad. For tube amps and guitar amps it's great.

The problem is too, the sound just gets muddy as all get out. It show a lack of quality cabinet design. I'm not claming that better subwoofers will have no harmonics... but they will have much much less.

I'v used a lot of Behringer stuff, and I have heard these particular behringer subs first hand. I can't make a decision yet, because I feel the operator was the problem that night. That said, my expectations are very low at this point.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Friday Jul 21, 2006

Yeah, I'm not digging on the Behringer subs either. Their boards are surprisingly decent, but I've never been impressed with anything with speakers inside that Behringer has put out. My mind would be more at ease if it were EAW, JBL, or even good workhose Peavey or Mackie stuff. But the fact is that it's a moot point right now anyways. That's what we have to work with, so we have to make the best of it. It looks to me that Frank tried to strike a balance between quality and affordability, and this system still blows out of the water some of the garbage I've seen that has passed for inhouse systems. I'm sure with an experienced tech behind the board, it will still provide adequate sound reinforcement. Just about every product that Behringer puts out is reversed engineered from a previously successful name brand piece of equipment, so hopefully that chose a good company to copy with their subs. I've had to plug into backline that sucked the donkey's balls, but I always made it work. Whoever's behind the board, is going to have to make this work.

BHawkeye · Post by **BHawkeye** » Sunday Jul 23, 2006

Hello everyone, was just re-visiting rockpage for the first time in a few years and this thread caugh my eye. Probably because, I am the house "sound guy" at YP now. lol. I can try to answer any questions you may have to the best of my ability. Will try to answer some of the questions I've seen so far......1st off, equipment.....yes, they are behringer subs......but, there are 4 not 2 as someone stated. I'm not crazy about them but, they get the job done. Just ran for HF1 tonight and the kick was loud and clear and was thumping my chest back at board. (wouldn't want to push it much more though) lol. As for amps, for subs, it is a qsc 5050, mids are crown 2400, monitors are qsc 1400.......(there were only 2 mon. mixes till tonight...) other mix is behringer 2500 soon to be replaced by probably another crown or qsc. Wedges are 2 12" behringers....2 10" ev's. Soon to be replaced with more behringers. Tops are as stated, EV dual 15 that do rock. FOH is not the 16 ch. allen and heath, ...was replaced with Mackie 24. Crosshover is also behringer.....as are most eq's, compressor and, gates. Somebody mentioned something about the way the compressor was run? Don't remember exactly what was mentioned but, I run it on vocal subgroup. I hope this answers some questions. I hope the in house works out well for all involved. I know Frank is a great guy and wants to keep the local musick scene alive. He wants to have control over how loud it gets. I think of it as a challenge to get a good mix at a lower level.

If anyone was out to see the show tonight, please let me know what you thought. If there are any improvements or anything that stuck out really bad, feel free to let me know. Of course, I realize, everybody's got an opinion. lol Until next time, take care everybody.

Victor Synn · Post by **Victor Synn** » Sunday Jul 23, 2006

As Brad said, we played tonight using YP's new system and it isn't too terribly bad. The only critique would be on the monitor end of things. I'm not a big fan of the monitors there. I think the system could benefit with possibly Yamaha 15s like City Limits has. I just had a major problem hearing myself at times during the night. Might have been because of the shape too, since it seemed that there was only one "sweet spot" that I could hear anything at. I'll give it another chance, though, since it's still a new system to the club and needs the bugs fixed.

BHawkeye · Post by **BHawkeye** » Sunday Jul 23, 2006

Vic, I'll take the blame for the monitor situation. Tim called me a few days before the show and said you would need 4 mixes..........there were only 2 at the time. I scrambled to get amp and eq's. Actually just installed them about 10 minutes before you got there. Didn't have time to test anything and wasn't sure how they'd react. Apparantly, not well. I'll get it straightened out this week. I would also like to see some yamaha 15's but, don't think the owner will spring for them quite yet. So, we'll have to make what we have work as best possible. Will be all up to par next show you do there. Looking forward to it.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Jul 23, 2006

Seemed like a good situation to me. BHawkeye was really easy to work with, and it sounded good FOH. Good tight thump from the subs, and good separation of instruments. Can't comment on the monitors, cuz I don't use 'em, but they are definitely small.

I don't have the audiophile chops to offer a more detailed critique than that! Definitely a workable situation, conducive to satisfying the fanbase. Not sure how it's specifically affecting the payday for the bands, but my cut for the night was bigger than usual. Your mileage may vary, of course.

Good to work with you, BHawkeye! That was my last HF1 show at YP, but hopefully I'll see you there again in future projects.

LHSL · Post by **LHSL** » Monday Jul 24, 2006

BHawkeye wrote:Hello everyone, was just re-visiting rockpage for the first time in a few years and this thread caugh my eye. Probably because, I am the house "sound guy" at YP now. lol. I can try to answer any questions you may have to the best of my ability. Will try to answer some of the questions I've seen so far......1st off, equipment.....yes, they are behringer subs......but, there are 4 not 2 as someone stated. I'm not crazy about them but, they get the job done. Just ran for HF1 tonight and the kick was loud and clear and was thumping my chest back at board. (wouldn't want to push it much more though) lol. As for amps, for subs, it is a qsc 5050, mids are crown 2400, monitors are qsc 1400.......(there were only 2 mon. mixes till tonight...) other mix is behringer 2500 soon to be replaced by probably another crown or qsc.

Glad to hear you got things worked out. I saw that rig up at the White Lady before it was "installed" so things obviously have changed.

FYI, don't ditch the Behringer amp. Or if you do, I'll buy it from you. Those EPs are great little amps.

I'd stay away from anymore crown macros, they are power pigs and that is only a 50A disconnect there at YP (even though there is a 60A breaker on it

). The QSC stuff is my favorite for this type of duty. The PLX is pretty light on current usage. Crown Xs series stuff isn't bad and the iTech is the king of Crown amps right now but $$$$.

floodcitybrass · Post by **floodcitybrass** » Monday Jul 24, 2006

BHawkeye wrote:He wants to have control over how loud it gets.

1) If you want to control the volume at YP, get a drum shield for the drummer. We measured the ACOUSTIC volume of the snare at the mix position and it was 110db. That is loud. And that is NOT through the PA. So you ask the drummer "please play quieter"... and he responds "I am tapping lightly".... so instead of arguing and finger pointing, get a drum shield.

2) People must clearly understand that the minimum volume of a good mix is going to be at least as loud as the loudest thing on stage. That being said, YP's "small" PA is not going to fix the problem of being too loud. The soundman is at the will of the musicians playing. The sound man can shut off the PA and it will still be too loud.

IF the problem at YP was excessive loudness, there are better solutions than just buying a small PA.

I am a big Frank fan too. He has always been great to work with. He probably had other reasonsfor getting an in house PA too. Some bands take till 4:00 AM to pack up and get out of there. So he may have been trying to speed things up by having an installed PA.
I think money would be better spent by buying a drum shield.
The things that LHSL says about stage volume and amp placement is dead on. We use LHSL exclusively for our band. He is the best around: Great mixing. Great equipment. And Lots of experience in all types of sound reinforcement - rock, jazz, blues, choirs, musical theatre, you name it. I would definately seek the advice a sound pro like him before investing more money in that system.

HurricaneBob · Post by **HurricaneBob** » Monday Jul 24, 2006

Good idea with the drumshield, i know with most of the heavier bands the drummer playing dynamic is not an option. I think Rusty R on here has one and uses it alot in his setting.

Plus I would love going a whole show not getting hit with a beer bottle....