Sound at TITV

[g1wgs]

All,

Just wondering what people thought of the sound systems at Thunder in the Valley. Mostly how they sounded and were operated.

I checked out a few bands, but I'm looking for comments on the sound seperate from the musicianship.

[onetooloud]

I felt the small system in festival park was good considering its size.

Alot of that was the result of stage volume, but still pretty good the times I heard it. Props to the crew there.

Now the train station stage where to start? I heard it Friday evening and it sounded fairly good. I heard two bands on saturday it sounded terrible to my ears. The bass was masked by the kick drum. The vocal clairity and much of the remaining mix was lost because of the weekend long big reverb.

Now my problem with that reverb wasn't the fact that it was there but the fact that it had too much energy in the 200-400hz range.

There where also several times on Saturday when somewhere around 3.5k hz maybe higher took my head off. This made at least one guiter I heard sound like cats fighting. The fellow who was playing was one of the best Johnstown has to offer so I doubt it was him. This same thing affected the vocals as well. Now I saw this early afternoon Sat.

Again on sunday I was there same reverb but the high end issue didn't exist because of of tarps covering the stacks.

I only heard the stage at the park once ,but I felt it was the best sounding
stage I'd heard. Full clear low end plenty of vocal clarity. Not much to be changed if anything at all. Like it said I'd only heard it once but it was good.

One other thing about the train station stage. One band playing there planned on a band member proposing to his girlfreind on stage that day.
When that member stepped to the mic to state his intent his mic was shut off by the sound tech. I hadn't been off it was shut off. I was told this by that person.

The sound tech said he wasn't going to waste eveyones time with that. From what I heard it was suggested to the tech to turn the mic back on which he did. I didn't see any of this I heard it second party.

[g1wgs]

The little I saw on Saturday at the train station stunned me. I agree about the stuff above 3.5k ripping holes in my ears. I mean... WTF? Are they deaf?

The most pronounced thing I noticed was that walking behind the stage through the alley while walking from Johns Street I heard a ton of low end. Punchy low end. I was like wow, that's cool maybe they have a big rig this year. I get with in 20 feet of the stage and from there till I walk out... GONE. NO BASS. Natta zip zilch.

Looks like someone needs to learn how to deploy subs when there is a big ass brick building behind your ass.

It really leaves me saddened that the bands must suffer this awful sound engineering.

I'm guessing here... but I bet a few bands brought their own guy to mix. Which really helps.

The first thing I would do when I walked up to those rigs is bypass the FOH EQ and insert my own. The second thing I would do is shut half the subs off. That is what is probably cancelling out all the bass out front. When you have subs at that critical distance they will tend to cancel. There are better solutions to the problem, but moving equipment is probably out of the question at that point.

From what I saw of the festival park stage I feared a bit for the safety of the musicians. They had a myriad of 20 year old ORANGE extention cords running out the back of the stage to a large power panel. When are people gonna learn, orange cord from Lowes is NOT heavy duty. It won't stand up to the riggors of stage use... Especailly outdoors. I wonder if the local electrical inspectors go down there and look at that. Not cool. The vendors do the same thing. Miles and Miles of orange and yellow PVC jacketed extention cords that are laying in oil and water on the roads all weekend. People walk on them over and over. Someday one of those jackets are going to detiorate and someone is going to be killed.

[HarleyRo1]

Excellent point about all of the power cords - literally everywhere - and it was something I commented on throughout the day on Saturday. You simply can't have thousands of feet of power cords running all over the ground...through puddles...and people were stepping over them, stepping on them, tripping on them...just a disaster waiting to happen.

I spent most of the day in the train station area...I definitely liked some of the bands..but the sound was pretty brutal. We did spend some time in Central Park and I thought the sound there was much, much better. There was a young girl that was singing - I think it was about 6:00 Saturday evening- what an incredible voice - I wish I knew who she was, or the name of the band.

[g1wgs]

I spent most of the day in the train station area...I definitely liked some of the bands..but the sound was pretty brutal. We did spend some time in Central Park and I thought the sound there was much, much better. There was a young girl that was singing - I think it was about 6:00 Saturday evening- what an incredible voice - I wish I knew who she was, or the name of the band.

According to the schedule I have 3-5PM was Flow Band and 5:30-8:30 was Russell Lauf Band.

[Craven Sound]

How did it sound at the FOH? I get pissed off when people say, "it sounds like shit 10 miles away" or even, "it sounds bad on stage" WTF?? DUH of course it's going to sound bad. I wasn't there, so I don't know exaclty how it sounded.

[Hannibal]

1.Comments about the orange extension cords are right on the mark. If you don't know how to build a code compliant power distribution system, IMO, you don't know enough to be running a decent sized sound system either. If you can't do basic wiring, how do you know if your system is even safe? We build all our own power distribution panels, boxes, and a lot of specialized cabling just for powering our rigs.

2. I was at three of the stages Friday. Yes, I'm a sound guy. What I heard at Central Park was decent, even from across the street behind FOH. The train station stage main sound left something to be desired. Felix and the Hurricanes were on when I arrived and Buddy Dee and the Hitmen were on when I left. Didn't get a chance to listen to the other two stages. Only had a small amount of time to spend there. Would have liked to spend more. The equipment lineup at Train Station and the one across the street from it didn't impress me at all. Didn't check out the rig too closely at Central Park.

[onetooloud]

Listening area was 7' right of mix postion

[HurricaneBob]

Thursday night the guys at Festival park didnt have the biggest system but what they had they worked it well, good monitor mix and helped us out with whatever we needed. Great Guys!
During breaks we went to train station to hear Glenn Pavone. Way to much verb on the mix and didnt do these guys justice.

Friday at noon we played the Train Station, the sound guy had the personality of a Q-tip. I told him we wanted a dry mix with minimal verb.
Monitors sucked and i was told the verb was way up like Pavone's mix.

I thought sound engineers were supposed to work with the band and not against it.

Whatever...

[g1wgs]

How did it sound at the FOH?

I walked all over the Train Station area. I was at FOH, and 20 feet left and right. Then I moved up the middle a little and walked out to stage right. Additionally I walked side stage to get an idea of the stage volume and monitor mix.

The only single time I was impressed by the sound down there was last year when the sound guy for a notable local band rolled in his own equipment. THAT guy knew how to make that band sound good. Given the speakers in use I think he did very well.

I know that JBL SRX series stuff is a big work horse in bars and clubs, but they are NOT outdoor concert speakers. They don't throw and at high SPL break up pretty easily. Additionaly, the horn honk they tend to get at high SPL just really ruins it for me.

Those stages have the wrong equipment for each application.

Central park is nearly a concert in the round. It takes way more boxes than that at a lower SPL to cover the crowd properly. Wide dispersion is what you want there.

The Train station needs some boxes with some major throw and some nearfield stuff for the listeners up front. I small sized line array would work there for the main hangs. Something like EAW KF730s or Renkus PN102s. The JBL stuff would work at a lower SPL for the nearfield.

I didn't scope out the festival park stage enough to completely evaluate it. It has a reall wide aspect ratio to it. The listening area is very shallow, maybe only 50 feet or so.

[Hannibal]

g1wgs wrote:
I know that JBL SRX series stuff is a big work horse in bars and clubs, but they are NOT outdoor concert speakers.

Agreed. They do not have the pattern control or throw that a good horn loaded rig has. I used to be a dealer for EAW. I'm glad I'm not any more. I also think the product has been diluted since Mackie bought the company a few years back.

My problem is I want real money for my work, and many events don't want to pay it. Low bid gets you what you paid for. When you tell somebody that your rig rents for min. $1,000-$3,500 a day depending on bells and whistles, they think you're crazy.

If you are going to buy cheaper gear, you can rent is out for less. I won't buy cheaper gear.

[g1wgs]

g1wgs wrote:
I know that JBL SRX series stuff is a big work horse in bars and clubs, but they are NOT outdoor concert speakers.

Agreed. They do not have the pattern control or throw that a good horn loaded rig has. I used to be a dealer for EAW. I'm glad I'm not any more. I also think the product has been diluted since Mackie bought the company a few years back.

There are lots of great choices out there for festival work. Community, Turbosound, Meyer, EV, Renkus and EAW all make great stuff. Mackie's control over EAW hasn't been that big of a deal. They have about ZERO product influence, and EAW is still making their most popular lines like KF850s, KF650s, the LA line (325s, 460s, etc.). They still make some of the worlds most powerful horn loaded subwoofers like the KF940. And, they have gotten into the mix with line array technologies.

They are also still pushing the design envelope with their new Gunness Focusing technology.

THat said, the line array market is getting crowded. Nexo, l'acoustics, Renkus, JBL, EV, and Meyer all have VERY popular products. They also have offerings in the large, midsized, and small format line arrays. The stuff sounds excellent.

Like it or not though, KF850s and KF650s are the defacto standard for regional PA comanies. They are easily cross-rentable and most rental houses have racks and stacks ready to go for that type of stuff.

[Craven Sound]

Uhh, I saw EAW in musicians friend, I think their rep has definitely gone in the shitter. The latest rendition of the KF series has also gotten poor reviews when stacked up against the older 850EF line.

[lonewolf]

Uhh, I saw EAW in musicians friend, I think their rep has definitely gone in the shitter. The latest rendition of the KF series has also gotten poor reviews when stacked up against the older 850EF line.

I also heard that they stopped using RCF components a few years back.

[g1wgs]

Uhh, I saw EAW in musicians friend, I think their rep has definitely gone in the shitter. The latest rendition of the KF series has also gotten poor reviews when stacked up against the older 850EF line.

Reviewed by whom?

They have some MI lines just like EV, turbosound, and the rest. The FR series is entry level stuff, that is available to music stores.

The fact is that you can't really compare the entry level stuff to their pro level gear. There are different lines for different purposes.

EAW is no Meyer... but then who is?

[g1wgs]

Uhh, I saw EAW in musicians friend, I think their rep has definitely gone in the shitter. The latest rendition of the KF series has also gotten poor reviews when stacked up against the older 850EF line.

I also heard that they stopped using RCF components a few years back.

In some cabinets they have. It doesn't matter. There are plenty of OEM driver manufactures out there now that make solid components. B&C, TAD, Eminence, JBL. With so much to choose from it would be a bad business plan to not shop around. 95% of what makes an EAW loudspeaker and EAW loudspeaker is in the design of the box. Go listen to them in the hands of a trained operator and then form your opinions.

[bassist_25]

If you are going to buy cheaper gear, you can rent is out for less. I won't buy cheaper gear.

+1

My saying has always been, "Good PA equipment ain't cheap, and cheap PA equipment ain't good." Of course, that goes with just about any form of music equipment. You can have a smokin' guitarist with flawless technique and he will ALWAYS sound better through the $2000 Mesa or Bogner rig than he would through a $500 Crate rig.

As far as the EAW stuff goes - I'm not a sound engineer so my experience is just purely from my own ears and taste; but I've always liked the sound of EAW stuff. I've been in situations where there's in house sound, and my mind is always put more at ease when I walk in and see EAW written across the enclosures.

[LHSL]

Uhh, I saw EAW in musicians friend, I think their rep has definitely gone in the shitter. The latest rendition of the KF series has also gotten poor reviews when stacked up against the older 850EF line.

To say such things shows a lack of knowledge and/or experience. Does not Musicians Friend also carry JBL, QSC, and Turbosound? Tell the folks at Turbosound that their Aspect series sucks because they have some models available for entry level buyers at a Music Store.

Heck, American Muscial carries EV right along side Behringer, Nady, and Samson. I guess that means the EV X-Array and X-Line stuff is crap now.

I'd invite you to come listen to an EAW system. I assure you, even the new EAW stuff is the real deal.

[BDR]

I think this morphed into a "Tech Sector" discussion somewhere along the line ...

I'm reading the words but all I'm comprehending is, "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah ..."

As I always tell our sound techs, the extent of my technical knowledge is, "I get my mic out of its case, plug it in and turn it on."

r:>)

[lonewolf]

I think this morphed into a "Tech Sector" discussion somewhere along the line ...

I'm reading the words but all I'm comprehending is, "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah ..."

As I always tell our sound techs, the extent of my technical knowledge is, "I get my mic out of its case, plug it in and turn it on."

r:>)

You mean they let you plug it in?

[BDR]

I think this morphed into a "Tech Sector" discussion somewhere along the line ...

I'm reading the words but all I'm comprehending is, "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah ..."

As I always tell our sound techs, the extent of my technical knowledge is, "I get my mic out of its case, plug it in and turn it on."

r:>)

You mean they let you plug it in?

LOL ... sometimes I even change my own batteries ...

r:>)

[RobTheDrummer]

I think this morphed into a "Tech Sector" discussion somewhere along the line ...

I'm reading the words but all I'm comprehending is, "blah, blah, blah, blah, blah ..."

As I always tell our sound techs, the extent of my technical knowledge is, "I get my mic out of its case, plug it in and turn it on."

r:>)

That's the extent of your general knowledge as well...hahhhahahahahh...Muahahahahahahaha

[Craven Sound]

Uhh, I saw EAW in musicians friend, I think their rep has definitely gone in the shitter. The latest rendition of the KF series has also gotten poor reviews when stacked up against the older 850EF line.

To say such things shows a lack of knowledge and/or experience. Does not Musicians Friend also carry JBL, QSC, and Turbosound? Tell the folks at Turbosound that their Aspect series sucks because they have some models available for entry level buyers at a Music Store.

Heck, American Muscial carries EV right along side Behringer, Nady, and Samson. I guess that means the EV X-Array and X-Line stuff is crap now.

I'd invite you to come listen to an EAW system. I assure you, even the new EAW stuff is the real deal.

And you are??? Believe me, I've been around this game for quite some time, and have heard both sides- good and not-so-good EAW systems. When the 750s came out a few years ago, they plain and simply sucked; the people that sold their 850 rigs were crying the blues- this was before the Line array fad had taken place, so traps were king. Previously, EAW carried much more cache than anything EV or JBL could dream of building, now that they are whored-out and owned by mackie, not so much.

[floodcitybrass]

We played at Thunder several times and the sound was average at best. THe power went out on us 3 times at one show. Very poor planning by the sound guy at Thunder. I know our personal sound guy for our band scopes the jobs weeks before and gets an appropriate power tie in. Stuff was feeding back on stage and the sound guys were smoking cigarettes and chatting to each other. I walked out to the front on one song and it was all kick drum and honky sounding vocals.


... as for the EAW "discussion" going on.... I've heard kf850s sound awesome and I've also heard them sound like crap.

Bottom line... the quality of sound is highly dependent on the human operating the sound equipment.

[g1wgs]

And you are??? Believe me, I've been around this game for quite some time, and have heard both sides- good and not-so-good EAW systems. When the 750s came out a few years ago, they plain and simply sucked; the people that sold their 850 rigs were crying the blues- this was before the Line array fad had taken place, so traps were king. Previously, EAW carried much more cache than anything EV or JBL could dream of building, now that they are whored-out and owned by mackie, not so much.

If a 750 rig sounds bad, it's user error, plain and simple. EAW does not build crap boxes that cost $5k a box. The VA4 stuff is very tricky to align. You are simply out of your depth here. EVERY manufacturer has a entry level line and pro touring level stuff.

You know what I suggest you do. Go post your comments on prosoundweb.com. For those not familiar, its the place that industry pro's hang out (BEs, MEs, SEs, operators, owners, and tech support folks from a host of big names like EAW, KT, QSC and others).

If you posted that there, you would get laughed off the board plain and simple.

Best of luck to you.