New cabinet vs new speakers

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Saturday Jun 10, 2006

I own a nice Laney cabinet (circa 1988-1990)that has an awesome metal grille and moderate wear on the tolex. Unfortunately it sounds like the speakers have seen better days or perhaps less humid conditions. The cabinet just doesnt sound tight anymore. It was the 280 watt cabinet mate to the Laney AOR50 series heads, which at one time were pretty fuckin cool.

I have been playing my Mesa Single Rectifier through a Marshall mode 4 280 watt cab when we share the stage with House of Cain, and I love the sound of that particular cab. Prob is J's cab is very large and could be difficult to tote around. The laney just fits in the trunk of my car. Most guys dont see the value in putting 4 speakers in old cabs when you can buy a new cab for 200 bux more.

If I do replace, Im looking at celestion g12 or g12h v30 which are about 110-120 bux a pc. A new mode 4 is 700 bux. I tune to AEABF#F# most often, and I am looking for a nice tight response. I dont necessarily use the most gain in the world, but I think I have acheived a pretty roaring guitar sound. It seems that the oversized cabs seem to give that deeper sound I am prob looking for, but hey maybe Im wrong.

Thoughts?

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Sunday Jun 11, 2006

I know we're on 2 different sides of the fence here but my opinion would be run direct and hell with luggin that big 'ole half stack.
That may work in my world and not yours though, just my .02 cents.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Sunday Jun 11, 2006

Remember that your cabinet is ported/tuned/sealed for the stock speakers, so after market speakers may not instantly sound good. Of course, there really isn't any science to picking replacement speakers based on sound and cabinet design, so if it seems like the speakers are damaged, then by all means buy a new set of speakers. But if you like the sound of the cabinet, I would stick with the same make and model of speakers if possible.

-Slick50

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Sunday Jun 11, 2006

I elected to go ahead and pull the back off of the cab and I found 4
16 ohm celestion g12m-70's (its wired 16ohm as well). That could be another reason why I am not getting the creamy lows I am shooting for It has bottom, but not "warm bottom". When we recorded I noticed my mids were a little harsh and the highs are decent, but had a little too much sizzle. And I assure you that it wasnt from too much presence or gain. I rolled those babies off quite a few times.

I was very disappointed when I saw the cab was completely made of pressed board. Not one piece of "real" wood was used in its construction, except for the 1x1 stripping to hold the back on. The cabinets are 30.5w x 30.5h, 14" deep, the speakers are front loaded, and are recessed 12" from the rear.

Between me and my brother we have 3 of these cabinets (1 straight, 2 angled), and it does seem like a shame to just let them sit and have the screws rust away, and the tolex turn brown.

here are some specs:
G12 vintage 30
http://professional.celestion.com/guita ... l.asp?ID=4
G12H 30 watt
http://professional.celestion.com/guita ... l.asp?ID=7

I have also read that some guys will put 2 of each in their cabinets (mixing wattages?).
Also if a possible upgrade was to be done would you stay with the 16ohm config or bump it to 8 ohm since the single rect runs single cab at 8 ohm?

The Laney sounded good thru these, but Im not convinced on the Mesa through them.
I also found the old speaker specs:
http://professional.celestion.com/guita ... 2M-70.html

Thoughts?

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Jun 12, 2006

I did a 4x12 Marshall cab with Celestion G12 Century Vintage. These have real nice bottom and are similar to the v30s, but they are much more articulate on solos. I think I used the word "creamy" on another thread.

Bonus: At 3.5 lbs. each, It will reduce your cabinet weight anywhere from 15-35 lbs, depending on what's in there now.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Jun 12, 2006

Chad,

It sounds like you are having the same conundrum that I had last February. I had this Avatar bass cab. It was loaded with neodynium drivers, so it was nice and light-weight. It could take loads of wattage...though like most cabs that can take loads of wattage, it had a sensitivity of like 98 db. It sounded alright. It had a lot of high mids and highs, but really no tight bottom-end to speak of. But I digress. My point is that after a while, I started to get this really weird out of phase rattling sound from the cab. I didn't know if I had a bad driver or what. I thought long and hard about whether it would be worth replacing any drivers. I figured that I wasn't nuts about its sound to begin with, so I might as well buy a cab that I liked more anyways. I wound up buying two Aguilars (see my thread below

). I ended up selling the Avatar for cheap to Greg from Knight Sound to use as backline with some of his bands. I told him about the weird sound before I sold it to him. Later when I asked him what he thought the problem could be, he told me that it seems like the cab is falling apart.

My point is that if you don't like things about the cabinet to begin with, changing drivers may or may not be the solution. You can stick new drivers in at over $100 a pop, and you may end up with a tone that you're very happy with. On the other hand, you may end up with something you don't like at all. As I said earlier in the thread, when a cab manufacturer builds a cabinet, they either port it or seal it to maximize the quality of the original speakers. Depending on your budget, if I were you then I would take my head and guitar to a music store with a lot of selection and try out as many cabs as possible. Then I would think long and hard about whether I want to buy a new cab or take a shot at trying new drivers in my old cabinet (be sure to have a good return policy if you go this way).

Good luck in whatever you decide to do. I found the whole process of upgrading my rig to be very stressful, especially since I don't have a huge selection of gear to try out in the local music stores. But now that I have something that I'm very happy with, I can get back to concentrating on playing music.

-Slick50

orangekick · Post by **orangekick** » Monday Jun 12, 2006

I highly recommend mixing speakers in a 4x12 cab. I have 2 4x12's and one of them has 4 G12H-30's in it and the other one has 2 V30's and 2 Mesa Boogie Black Shadow 90's in it. Excellent mix of tones.

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Monday Jun 12, 2006

The mixing of the g12h and vintage 30 seems to be lot more common than I thought. I have even seen the the two sold together as a set.

Whats up with the wattages being different? Has this created any noticable problems for u orangekick?

I do agree with u bassist_25 on maybe never truly being happy unless just going and buying something for what it is... I just hate to let these cabs sit around collect dust. Holding onto them for mere sentimental value seems stupid, and the resale value on a Laney just isnt there. What does Mesa put in their Rectifier cabs? Jason said his Mode 4 has G12HM I think, which must be only available to Marshall.

Lastly in the oversized cabs... is it the open space in the back of the closed back cabinerts that makes them deeper... or the pure weight and density of the cabinet? I think a good tone guy can make anything work after some tweking, but I just dont wanna spend 3 weeks making a simple open chord not sound like a blender.

Please advise,

onegunguitar · Post by **onegunguitar** » Monday Jun 12, 2006

Killjingle wrote:
I was very disappointed when I saw the cab was completely made of pressed board. Not one piece of "real" wood was used in its construction, except for the 1x1 stripping to hold the back on. The cabinets are 30.5w x 30.5h, 14" deep, the speakers are front loaded, and are recessed 12" from the rear.

Good quality cabinets are made from Birch wood,usually like 13 ply.

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Monday Jun 12, 2006

that bothered me a lot Scott. I guess I always assumed that they were a little better constructed

old Skool · Post by **old Skool** » Monday Jun 12, 2006

Chad, I think you'd really like the Vintage 30's mixed with the G1270's. The Vintage 30's seem to have a warmer, thigher bottom and a crisp top end where the G1270's have that mid range punch that really cuts through. Together they sound great. I have a set of Boogie 2x12 cabs that came loaded with 200 watt EV's. I replaced one of the EV's in each cab with a vintage 30 & man that made a huge difference. As far as mixing wattage, from the way I understand it you're only as good as your lowest rated speaker. You should still have plenty of power though no matter what you do. The larger sized cabs do seem to handle low frequency better but you should be fine with the "traditional" size cab you have. The price of new Vintage 30's does suck. Sometimes you can find a used cab loaded with them for about the same price as four new ones but then you'd still have an extra cab sittin' around. Decisions, decisions.

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Monday Jun 12, 2006

As far as mixing wattage, from the way I understand it you're only as good as your lowest rated speaker

so with the G12H 30w things could be a little quiet I presume... 4 would put it around "120 watt" the vintage 30's put er at "240"

and because of my particular musical taste I do prefer to have stage volume as loud as possible... I love the sound onstage... I actually prefer to hear the stage mix vs the house mix just because I love the brutal honesty of it

orangekick · Post by **orangekick** » Tuesday Jun 13, 2006

The wattage has nothing to do with the volume. Volume is determined by the efficiency of the speakers. I actually find that the G12H-30's seem to be a touch louder than the V30's, that's probably just my ears playing tricks on me. I also play very loud. I usually run 2 half stacks these days and so does our other guitar player.

Check out the sensitivity of the 2 speakers listed below, they are the same.

Vintage 30:
Nominal diameter 12", 305mm
Power Rating 60W
Nominal impedance 8Ω and 16Ω
Sensitivity 100dB
Chassis type Pressed steel
Voice coil diameter 1.75", 44.5mm
Voice coil material Round copper
Magnet type Ceramic
Magnet weight 50oz, 1.42kg
Frequency range 70-5000Hz
Resonance frequency, Fs 75Hz
DC resistance, Re 7.3Ω & 12.9Ω

G12H-30:
Nominal diameter 12", 305mm
Power Rating 30W
Nominal impedance 8Ω and 16Ω
Sensitivity 100dB
Chassis type Pressed steel
Voice coil diameter 1.75", 44.5mm
Voice coil material Rounded copper
Magnet type Ceramic
Magnet weight 50oz, 1.42kg
Frequency range 75-5000Hz
Resonance frequency, Fs 85Hz
DC resistance, Re 6.7Ω & 13.1Ω

old Skool · Post by **old Skool** » Tuesday Jun 13, 2006

Yeah I agree with ya on the stage volume Chad. We never run any guitar in the monitors (except for Randy's (drummer) monitor with some of the bigger systems). I just love when your rig is crankin' and you can really dig in and "feel" the tone. Our stage volume never gets too crazy (at least I hope) but you can definitely feel the vibe, especially on the heavier tunes we do.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Saturday Jun 24, 2006

If you want to check out a 4x12 cab loaded with Celestion Century Vintage speakers, give a holler. I have decided to go all digital modeling and my Marshall 4x12 is too over the top for modeling...its kinda like smoking with a patch on. I am selling this cab and may have 5 like-new Celestion Century Vintage speakers for sale. These sound much like the Vintage 30s, only the neodymium magnets are much more responsive to fast picking, resulting in a more defined sound. At 3.5 lbs. each, they'll reduce your cabinet weight by about 25lbs! Its worth a look.

I have decided to get a MojoTone Bassman 2-12 cab and load them with Celestion Century 80s. They are louder and more vanilla sounding--perfect for modeling.

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Saturday Jun 24, 2006

Wolf,

I am apprehensive about your cab because of how low I tune... HOWEVER...

I have been thinking about A-B'ing and carrying two cabs and two heads... I need to think about this some more... I am really interested in shaping a very warm clean sound as well

Thanks
Chad

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Sunday Jun 25, 2006

Killjingle wrote:Wolf,

I am apprehensive about your cab because of how low I tune... HOWEVER...

I have been thinking about A-B'ing and carrying two cabs and two heads... I need to think about this some more... I am really interested in shaping a very warm clean sound as well

Thanks
Chad

The Celestion Century Vintage speakers have a resonant frequency of 70hz and a low end response at 75Hz. Thats roughly C# and D below the E string and should handle most 6 string tunings without a problem. The only way to know for sure is to plug it in and kick its ass. You are more than welcome to try it out with any gear you like. You would be surprised how much bass and chest thump this cab kicks out. If you don't like the cab, who knows, you may like the speakers.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Sunday Jun 25, 2006

Killjingle wrote:I was very disappointed when I saw the cab was completely made of pressed board.

That pressed board is probably audio quality MDF. While its not as durable as plywood, it is sonically superior to almost all plywoods and is comparable to void-free marine plywood. This is because most plywoods have voids or air pockets in them that cause unwanted resonance. MDF does not.

You will see various companies advertising about their 13-ply baltic birch plywood, but unless its void-free plywood, MDF is a sonically better material.

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Sunday Jun 25, 2006

You will see various companies advertising about their 13-ply baltic birch plywood, but unless its void-free plywood, MDF is a sonically better material.

Is this a personal opinion, or a common thought amongst veterans like yourself? I might just rethink this whole thing over. I would have never thought that. That is pretty cool. Most cab makers offer "void free" birch.

Your offer on trying the cab is also very kind. I will try to make use of that offer, although I dont venture over the mountain that often, and my main ride is company owned, so I dont take advantage of the free ride they have provided me. I drive my own car so often that the e-brake is starting to hang up. I drive my personal vehicle bout once every 3 wks.

I also tune my guitar 3 1/2 steps down from 440, to a low tuned A. I did this for a great many yrs before it became fashionable... although that argument will never hold up in court. LOL.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Sunday Jun 25, 2006

That statement about MDF is from a materials engineering specification point of view. Concrete is also sonically superior to plywood, but not a highly recommended cabinet material. It wouldn't surprise me if somebody came on here, told me I was full of shit and then recommended polycarbonite (bullet proof glass).

It also depends on what you are trying to accomplish. I've been experimenting with some guitar cabinets that I designed with CAE and have had a lot better results with sideways laminated solid project pine than with the void-free birch plywood. For rigidity, I like 3/4" void-free birch plywood for the baffle and the rear panel.

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Sunday Jun 25, 2006

I suppose in the grand scheme of things is to get a real warm sounding maybe even syrupy (if thats a word) low end, nice tight mids, and round high end. I dont want to second guess every time I throw a mic in front of the cab to record, and I want it to sound heavy yet subtle if that effect is desired. I dont want to just plug in and crank it all to 11, I want to have a nice variety of tones to work with. I want a cabinet that will compliment all the damn dial turning I do. I want something that when I strike a low A that wont break up or rattle the cabinet. I also want the cabinet to perform when I strike a clean high 4 string chord and apply a lush reverb to be pleasing to my ear.

tornandfrayed · Post by **tornandfrayed** » Sunday Jun 25, 2006

Jeff, you are full of shit!

Chad I would highly recomend polycarbonite (bullet proof glass).

Good Luck!

Killjingle · Post by **Killjingle** » Monday Jun 26, 2006

whos gonna carry it?