Crowbar = Nobar
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RobTheDrummer
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- Location: Tiptonia, Pa
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nightcrawler_steve
I agree Rob. Would definitely be a start in the right direction. If anyone has been to The District in Harrisburg....they got the right idea going on.RobTheDrummer wrote:I'm tellin ya, they need to remodel the bathrooms and get some food in there! If they had a restaurant downstairs and the bar upstairs, that would be kick ass!
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AtoMikEnRtiA
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- Location: Palmyra, Pennsylvania - Where only the Strong Survive.. kinda like New Jersey...
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The District inside the Dragonfly complex? - that place does well for itself i hear.nightcrawler_steve wrote:I agree Rob. Would definitely be a start in the right direction. If anyone has been to The District in Harrisburg....they got the right idea going on.RobTheDrummer wrote:I'm tellin ya, they need to remodel the bathrooms and get some food in there! If they had a restaurant downstairs and the bar upstairs, that would be kick ass!
"okay we got da right and fruffy panacakes. ooooooh ver goood you get da rittre bruberries, too!"
- Keith Reyn on Chinese Waiters at IHOP
- Keith Reyn on Chinese Waiters at IHOP
Crowbar's closure also means that there is no longer a venue for rising or mid-level national names to play in our region. Crowbar was a good venue for signed bands/artists that weren't well-enough established to play the Bryce Jordan Center, but too big for smaller venues. Now if you want to see bands like that, you probably have to head to Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, D.C. or Philadelphia. And with gas prices as they are, there are a lot of folks who might not make those roadtrips.
Hopefully somebody in State College steps up and fills that gap.
Hopefully somebody in State College steps up and fills that gap.
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HarleyRo1
- Gold Member
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- Joined: Monday Apr 04, 2005
- Location: Hanging out with the Great Cornholio
This really sucks. I have taken my teenager there a dozen times for underage shows. It's a great venue - she gets to hang out on the floor with the band, and I get to hang out upstairs. The security there is excellent and they definitely control the young (insane at times) crowd. I hope that someone else reopens it and continues the underage shows.
Bummer.
Ro
Bummer.
Ro
Who needs gold and diamonds when you can have chrome....
You know..those who have flamed me about my '$300+' remark did not read that right....there is a plus sign there. And I never said that the bands were over priced. I've only had I think one band in our place that I did not feel was not worth their price. There are some that worked with us when they saw the lousy turnout. My complaint is not with the bands. My complaint is with the customers who would rather be out at private parties or even out listening to karaoke instead of paying a cover charge of $2 to $5.
Wow, I could only dream of a jager shot for $4! We sell bombers for $4 and get complaints.
Some of the bands on rockpage have played at our place...and they will tell you that they were treated well. We have a lot of respect for the fact that band members work hard to practice, load and unload equipment, and promote their gigs. But as a owner of a bar, you have to look at the bottom line. And as bars discover that they can make more money by having no entertainment and just selling food and drinks without the overhead that's what will happen.
I've posted here before...and have asked for advice on how to get the customer base in to listen to the live bands. We have done all of that. When the customers start complaining because there are no bands coming to their local areas, they only have theirselves to blame.
Wow, I could only dream of a jager shot for $4! We sell bombers for $4 and get complaints.
Some of the bands on rockpage have played at our place...and they will tell you that they were treated well. We have a lot of respect for the fact that band members work hard to practice, load and unload equipment, and promote their gigs. But as a owner of a bar, you have to look at the bottom line. And as bars discover that they can make more money by having no entertainment and just selling food and drinks without the overhead that's what will happen.
I've posted here before...and have asked for advice on how to get the customer base in to listen to the live bands. We have done all of that. When the customers start complaining because there are no bands coming to their local areas, they only have theirselves to blame.
Kareoke should be banned. It's lame, just like DJs that don't actually mix on the tables. I have respect for REAL MC's but the "play my favorite top 40 song" crap needs to GO.Lisa wrote:My complaint is with the customers who would rather be out at private parties or even out listening to karaoke instead of paying a cover charge of $2 to $5.
Wow, I could only dream of a jager shot for $4! We sell bombers for $4 and get complaints.
If you can't get $4 for shot in SC then WTF. Shots in the cities run $4.75 to $5, drafts are $3.25 and up. People in this area need to wake up... this isn't 1980 and shit ain't free.
LAME! That's called a friggin restaraunt. Not a bar. Get a clue.And as bars discover that they can make more money by having no entertainment and just selling food and drinks without the overhead that's what will happen.
Bullshit. Here's the problem. 99% of the local bar owners don't have a clue about the music biz. They don't know talent, and they don't know when they have a good thing. They don't know how to advertise or promote their bands. They don't have good house sound system or lights. And they don't keep it up. You don't even need a great house system. Production can be brought in, but seriously, how about making it a little easier to load in equipment.I've posted here before...and have asked for advice on how to get the customer base in to listen to the live bands. We have done all of that. When the customers start complaining because there are no bands coming to their local areas, they only have theirselves to blame.
The Crowbar was a nice venue, but I'm sorry, that equipment was in disrepair. The stuff was state of the art... 10 friggin years ago. I've talked to several industry pro's that have come through there on tours and LAUGHED at the condition of the equipment. Maybe THAT's why they closed. Couldn't get national bands to continue to play there with the utter FILTH that is collected on their equipment. I know bars are smokey, but c'mon... 1/4" of dust, crud, and slime on top of the insert rack is just rediculous! If I was a touring band engineer or booking agent and I could book a club like Mr. Smalls out in pittsburgh or Crowbar... guess where I'd f'ing go.
Steps to make a sucessful music venue with a bar:
1) find deals on booze
2) find a location where the PLCB won't bitch.
3) install lighting and a big fat power connection for sound
4) have an easy way for band to load in (they'll like playing there more)
5) hire TALENT. Not some crap ass band. (let a crap ass band play on open mic night)
6) schedule the TALENT regularly so people know when to expect them... Like a TV show. Give people a schedule and they will come back. Like, have an awesome house band every other Saturday.
7) drink specials 30 minutes before the band starts and only through the first set
don't let the band take 20 minute breaks... 10 minutes tops. Maybe 15.9) advertise advertise advertise
10) charge what you want for drinks... if it seems exclusive people will come.
I'm a firm believer in percieved value. If you walk the walk and talk the talk, people will think the club is a big to do. If they percieve value, they will pay $10 at the door to see TALENT and $4 for shots and $3 for drafts.
I don't know, Lisa. It seemed from the tone of your post that you were complaining, at least partly, because bands are $300 plus. I promise I'm not picking a fight, that's just how it appears from rereading your first post. I've never been to your club, but I can assume comparing your place to the Crowbar isn't fair... no pre-alcoholic college student binge drinkers, not much foot traffic, no national acts. I don't think g1wgs post applies much for you. My point was only that $300 ain't bad for a band, and I said "Flame away," because I figured people would flame me, and I don't care.
I used to daydream about having a small, intimate listening room, just a corner bar with a corner stage and a little PA for acoustic music, and a really really good stereo for when there's nobody playing. No pool table, no goddamn darts machine, and no 47 TV's. You go in, sit down, have a beer, talk to your friends and listen to good music. That was before I realized the reality of owning a bar... The PLCB, mean drunks, second-hand smoke, loud drunks, liability insurance, whiny drunks, parking problems, career drunks... oh yeah, and drunk women. I used to love drunk women, but they're so much more pushy and annoying now. I digress. Anyway, the reality is that owning a bar would generally suck balls.
But running a band as anything more than a way to pay your bar tab ain't easy, either.------------->JMS
I used to daydream about having a small, intimate listening room, just a corner bar with a corner stage and a little PA for acoustic music, and a really really good stereo for when there's nobody playing. No pool table, no goddamn darts machine, and no 47 TV's. You go in, sit down, have a beer, talk to your friends and listen to good music. That was before I realized the reality of owning a bar... The PLCB, mean drunks, second-hand smoke, loud drunks, liability insurance, whiny drunks, parking problems, career drunks... oh yeah, and drunk women. I used to love drunk women, but they're so much more pushy and annoying now. I digress. Anyway, the reality is that owning a bar would generally suck balls.
But running a band as anything more than a way to pay your bar tab ain't easy, either.------------->JMS
g1wgs ,,...you havn't a fucking clue on running a bar, have no idea on Plcb rules and on and on. You appearntly don't understand what the DUI laws have done to the bar business in Pa, especially in this area. how about the unfairness the state laws give clubs over bars. How about the liability Insurance a bar has to pay just to be open and it goes up if you run dances & bands. and its getting worse because of the Rhode Island bar that burned and killed 100 patrons. And here is another kicker I've been in bands for over 25 years, and watched the Band Business slump beyond anyone could imagine. songsmith was right bands in bars got $ 250 and up in the 70's & 80's but the pay scale has stayed the same for 20 yrs. Why go to hear bands when you can sit in your home and download music and party with a 30 pack. and I could go on.
the fact is its going to get worse. the age group 21 - 35 is dwindling in this area year after year.
the fact is its going to get worse. the age group 21 - 35 is dwindling in this area year after year.
Where there is light, there is Hope!
Yeah, my favorite memories of Crowbar are seeing Type O, Sevendust, Suicidal Tendencies and Mushroomhead.Jim Price wrote:Crowbar's closure also means that there is no longer a venue for rising or mid-level national names to play in our region. Crowbar was a good venue for signed bands/artists that weren't well-enough established to play the Bryce Jordan Center, but too big for smaller venues. Now if you want to see bands like that, you probably have to head to Harrisburg, Pittsburgh, D.C. or Philadelphia. And with gas prices as they are, there are a lot of folks who might not make those roadtrips.
Hopefully somebody in State College steps up and fills that gap.
It's a damn shame that the #1 place for live music in all of central PA is closing. I am sure that somehow it will reopen at some point, but for now, if that doesn't prove to be the case, it's unfortunate.
Crowbar always surprised me. It's a terrible setup for a bar, and the first time I walked in there to play, I was amazed that it was so small. You hear of all of these national acts coming in, and you wonder where everyone would sit or stand.
They need to open it up a bit. That downstairs area seems completely worthless in scheme of things. and I agree with g1gws, there house sound was getting a bit antiquated, and I had heard this complaint from several bands. It still pounded when run correctly, but it could have used some updating, but that's neither here nor there.
The fact of the matter is that they could not sustain what they attempted to do - which was provide mid-level national acts and top flight local talent to the kids in SC. Noone wants to go to Crowbar and chill, there are much better places to chill (Cafe 210, Darkhorse, Brewery) that still offer live music.
The cost of hiring top-flight local talent can get pricey as we all know. I am sure GOS and Backstreet Law were making $1000+ there each night they played which is acceptable as long as the people are there. Football season means everyone makes money - the bands, the bars, bartenders, etc. But when shit slows down, how do you justify hiring expensive local talent to play for a half crowded establishment? I have no idea of their pay rate (we were openers for other bands), but I am sure that the bands did very well regardless of crowd.
It's not like when you hire national acts that have to sell the tix to make the money. Most bands do not have a guarantee from a venue unless they are well-established. In fact, I read that last summer, Motley Crue was able to demand a guarantee from venues for the first time since they toured in 91-92. Case in point.
Crowbar gave all local bands something to aspire to. It was the crown jewel in any bands' schedule. It was the notoriety more than anything else, even though on any given Friday or Saturday you could get a better crowd at any number of other bars in SC.
Crowbar will be missed, but everyone is right in believing that they will be back in some form or another, because they are a necessary thing in this area...Crowbar served a purpose, and I am sure that someone will develop some ideas to make it more profitable, and it will reopen before we know it......
Crowbar always surprised me. It's a terrible setup for a bar, and the first time I walked in there to play, I was amazed that it was so small. You hear of all of these national acts coming in, and you wonder where everyone would sit or stand.
They need to open it up a bit. That downstairs area seems completely worthless in scheme of things. and I agree with g1gws, there house sound was getting a bit antiquated, and I had heard this complaint from several bands. It still pounded when run correctly, but it could have used some updating, but that's neither here nor there.
The fact of the matter is that they could not sustain what they attempted to do - which was provide mid-level national acts and top flight local talent to the kids in SC. Noone wants to go to Crowbar and chill, there are much better places to chill (Cafe 210, Darkhorse, Brewery) that still offer live music.
The cost of hiring top-flight local talent can get pricey as we all know. I am sure GOS and Backstreet Law were making $1000+ there each night they played which is acceptable as long as the people are there. Football season means everyone makes money - the bands, the bars, bartenders, etc. But when shit slows down, how do you justify hiring expensive local talent to play for a half crowded establishment? I have no idea of their pay rate (we were openers for other bands), but I am sure that the bands did very well regardless of crowd.
It's not like when you hire national acts that have to sell the tix to make the money. Most bands do not have a guarantee from a venue unless they are well-established. In fact, I read that last summer, Motley Crue was able to demand a guarantee from venues for the first time since they toured in 91-92. Case in point.
Crowbar gave all local bands something to aspire to. It was the crown jewel in any bands' schedule. It was the notoriety more than anything else, even though on any given Friday or Saturday you could get a better crowd at any number of other bars in SC.
Crowbar will be missed, but everyone is right in believing that they will be back in some form or another, because they are a necessary thing in this area...Crowbar served a purpose, and I am sure that someone will develop some ideas to make it more profitable, and it will reopen before we know it......
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cruseaudio
- Gold Member
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- Joined: Monday Sep 22, 2003
- Location: central PA
No offense Jangle, but G1wgs had some painfully obviouse points. And it amaizes me that club owners can't put two and two together.
If they could then they wouldn't be in this mess.
I know it is tough but it seems like you all have given up. But instead of doing that try LISTENING to your patrons, musicians, sound persons, and I am sorry to say it but it takes money to make money. And just because your bar WAS something doesn't mean it will always be something.
Things change. Bars didn't keep up. Oh well.
Demand is down, so it is time to trim the fat. And trimming the fat doesn't mean SCIMPING. You put your marker on what works and you shit can the bullshit that doesn't.
But I am wrong? Burgies is doing good, Classics is ALWAYS fine. 4D's? You gotta give people what they want!!!!! But then again all of those places have had over a million invested. Like I said it takes money to make it.
Owning a bar is CONSTANT work. Either you like it or you don't. But as soon as you stop investing back into it you are starting the downhill spiral.
But all that is bullshit? I don't know too many people who would rather go sit in a dark dankass stinky bar than go buy a six pack and get drunk hassle free in their own CLEAN house.Is that incorrect too?
In other words Maybe the fact that bars are just about finished around here should tell you that you all are not doing something right. So how can you tell other people they are wrong. That is you guy's problem.
If you would treat it like a business and not take things personally you guys could see the obvious stuff. Right now you guys act like someone insulted your kid or something. These are your CUSTOMERS! They are TELLING you what THEY WANT. And it aint snakes and sparklers!!!!!!
But the kids around here don't like to keep up with the rest of the world.
PLEASE!!!!!!! You are insulting our intelligence and sense of taste while you have your hand out. That is not going to work.
Sorry Jang and I don't want to start a fight with you, I know you and you are a hell of a nice guy, and I am trying to give you good advice. I am not insulting your frst born or anything and neither is anyone else here.
It is tough and chances are 5 years from now things are going to be a lot different around here. I hate seeing this shit as much as the guy. But hey if all were going to do about it is argue who's Idea is stupider than I guess we all deserve what's coming.
If they could then they wouldn't be in this mess.
I know it is tough but it seems like you all have given up. But instead of doing that try LISTENING to your patrons, musicians, sound persons, and I am sorry to say it but it takes money to make money. And just because your bar WAS something doesn't mean it will always be something.
Things change. Bars didn't keep up. Oh well.
Demand is down, so it is time to trim the fat. And trimming the fat doesn't mean SCIMPING. You put your marker on what works and you shit can the bullshit that doesn't.
But I am wrong? Burgies is doing good, Classics is ALWAYS fine. 4D's? You gotta give people what they want!!!!! But then again all of those places have had over a million invested. Like I said it takes money to make it.
Owning a bar is CONSTANT work. Either you like it or you don't. But as soon as you stop investing back into it you are starting the downhill spiral.
But all that is bullshit? I don't know too many people who would rather go sit in a dark dankass stinky bar than go buy a six pack and get drunk hassle free in their own CLEAN house.Is that incorrect too?
In other words Maybe the fact that bars are just about finished around here should tell you that you all are not doing something right. So how can you tell other people they are wrong. That is you guy's problem.
If you would treat it like a business and not take things personally you guys could see the obvious stuff. Right now you guys act like someone insulted your kid or something. These are your CUSTOMERS! They are TELLING you what THEY WANT. And it aint snakes and sparklers!!!!!!
But the kids around here don't like to keep up with the rest of the world.
PLEASE!!!!!!! You are insulting our intelligence and sense of taste while you have your hand out. That is not going to work.
Sorry Jang and I don't want to start a fight with you, I know you and you are a hell of a nice guy, and I am trying to give you good advice. I am not insulting your frst born or anything and neither is anyone else here.
It is tough and chances are 5 years from now things are going to be a lot different around here. I hate seeing this shit as much as the guy. But hey if all were going to do about it is argue who's Idea is stupider than I guess we all deserve what's coming.
$300????????? are you kidding me? Ok lets see, tank of gas, roughly $40 in the average vehicle. Probably $20 or more in food and beverage for the night. Band of 5 guys, there's your $300......now, show me a GOOD sound company that will go out for less than, oh lets be generous here, $350. NO ONE. You cannot get good production for less and I for one gave up on paying to play 15 years ago. If $300 is too much for a club to pay a band, they're obviously hiring the wrong acts. Trying hiring someone that will bring people into your club.......not cousin joe's garage band.
Man, clubs that don't wanna pay just chaps my ass.
Man, clubs that don't wanna pay just chaps my ass.
Its always easy to tell someone else how to run a business. Not everyone runs a bar right....they come and go. Bar owners that is. Everyone knows how to make it especially when they have a few drinks. If I would have listened to all the " you need to do it this way" stuff I would have went under years ago. As far as the band business goes here are some of the problems:
1. New band no following are charging what the bands with a following charge and thus end up with no crowd. Band is pissed / bar owner pissed
chance of getting rebooked.......zip!
Try playing for the door....build a following.
I saw the post on the crowbar...that is sad and your right it takes money to make money.....because the only ones that can afford to try to reopen will be someone with a lot of money. A vacant area not even a half acre
goes for 1.1 million $$$. that is with no building on it.
Cruse wrote
but I would say your wrong on this one.
1. New band no following are charging what the bands with a following charge and thus end up with no crowd. Band is pissed / bar owner pissed
chance of getting rebooked.......zip!
Try playing for the door....build a following.
I saw the post on the crowbar...that is sad and your right it takes money to make money.....because the only ones that can afford to try to reopen will be someone with a lot of money. A vacant area not even a half acre
goes for 1.1 million $$$. that is with no building on it.
Cruse wrote
you are not saying that all bars are dark and dirty are you?But all that is bullshit? I don't know too many people who would rather go sit in a dark dankass stinky bar than go buy a six pack and get drunk hassle free in their own CLEAN house.Is that incorrect too?
but I would say your wrong on this one.
Where there is light, there is Hope!
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nightcrawler_steve
Here is the story on the front page of the Centre Daily Times. Their website got 5000 hits on the Crowbar story alone yesterday. People are really upset about this. Thats all I heard last night when I was out in town. Someone is going to fill this void.
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/14597130.htm
Some really great posts here on the Crowbar today.
Im sticking by my thoughts yesterday. Crowbar is not a good place to chill when there arent bands.
This is where Im trying to make my point. Keep in mind this is State College, not Altoona, Johnstown or Pittsburgh - its a college town. The majority of the bar patrons are students. College students are so incredibly trendy these days. CB hasnt been renovated since it opened and thats over a generation ago if you think about it. Why would they go to CB if its not a cool place to hangout with their friends. Wait - they wouldnt and they dont. Ive heard it time and time again - Im not making it up. We have a great following here in State College in every club we play in EXCEPT Crowbar. We dont do bad by Crowbar standards (their words not ours), but its far below what we draw in the other clubs. I think they would be able to turn a profit if they served some sort of food, brighten the place up a bit, make it more trendy, clean it up a bit and create an "atmosphere or scene". Cause as it was, it was just a big empty industrial cave when there wasnt a national in there or a weekend night. The famous nickel nights (on Thursdays) were even starting to dwindle. After midnight when the drinks specials are over - guess what - they go to other clubs. There has to be a reason for this.
I think youre right though ASB - that place will be back in some form or another. God I hope! This town needs a place like Crowbar - they just need to reinvent it.
My 2 cents - again
http://www.centredaily.com/mld/centredaily/14597130.htm
Some really great posts here on the Crowbar today.
Im sticking by my thoughts yesterday. Crowbar is not a good place to chill when there arent bands.
Im not trying to argue with your opinion ASB cause youve made some valid points. But as someone who lives, works and plays music in State College, Id like to think I have a pretty good idea of what works here in town. Granted, there are a lot of people who come to CB for the nationals and to party it up on the weekends with the very popular cover bands, football weekends, Arts Fest, etc.. But if you look at the CB schedule for the last year youll see that leaves a lot of holes in their schedule. Who fills those holes? Local bands/musicians.ASB10 - The fact of the matter is that they could not sustain what they attempted to do - which was provide mid-level national acts and top flight local talent to the kids in SC. Noone wants to go to Crowbar and chill, there are much better places to chill (Cafe 210, Darkhorse, Brewery) that still offer live music.
This is where Im trying to make my point. Keep in mind this is State College, not Altoona, Johnstown or Pittsburgh - its a college town. The majority of the bar patrons are students. College students are so incredibly trendy these days. CB hasnt been renovated since it opened and thats over a generation ago if you think about it. Why would they go to CB if its not a cool place to hangout with their friends. Wait - they wouldnt and they dont. Ive heard it time and time again - Im not making it up. We have a great following here in State College in every club we play in EXCEPT Crowbar. We dont do bad by Crowbar standards (their words not ours), but its far below what we draw in the other clubs. I think they would be able to turn a profit if they served some sort of food, brighten the place up a bit, make it more trendy, clean it up a bit and create an "atmosphere or scene". Cause as it was, it was just a big empty industrial cave when there wasnt a national in there or a weekend night. The famous nickel nights (on Thursdays) were even starting to dwindle. After midnight when the drinks specials are over - guess what - they go to other clubs. There has to be a reason for this.
Nice try. You were an opener. We did our share of openers before getting our own nights. You make crap - but its Crowbar and the reputation and great stage and yadda yadda. When you get your own night as a local band - guess what? You get the door. And Im tellin you man, its the most f****d up pay scale Ive ever heard of. Im sorry I cant go into detail about it, because I have respect for the management and its not cool to talk about that kind of business on a web forum. So youre thinkin - why play there then right? Well for us it was a venue in town where we could put our own shows together and play ALL original. And we were always grateful to them for letting us do that.But when shit slows down, how do you justify hiring expensive local talent to play for a half crowded establishment? I have no idea of their pay rate (we were openers for other bands), but I am sure that the bands did very well regardless of crowd.
I think youre right though ASB - that place will be back in some form or another. God I hope! This town needs a place like Crowbar - they just need to reinvent it.
My 2 cents - again
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RobTheDrummer
- Diamond Member
- Posts: 5227
- Joined: Tuesday Dec 10, 2002
- Location: Tiptonia, Pa
At least it's not like LA...In LA, YOU have to pay to play there. But, that's because every band wants to get noticed and the bars use that to take advantage of bands...
I hope someone picks up the Crowbar, and knows what to do with it. That place is a local icon of music! That would be like JP callin it quits!
I hope someone picks up the Crowbar, and knows what to do with it. That place is a local icon of music! That would be like JP callin it quits!
There are several problems with not paying the band. First off if you don't have a house sound system or the system is crap, they need to bring someone in. No one is going to bring $40,000 worth of SR gear into a bar for free. Gas for you car... try gas for a truck towing a 7000 trailer or a 20 ft box truck. YOU are the one that needs to get a clue jangle. Most quality PA systems are gonna run $200-300 a night. A cheap bar rig for an acoustic act might rent out for less. Otherwise, you get a no talent ass clown that is deaf in one ear and lost all his hearing from 5-20k in the other. SO what does he do? he boosts 10 bands on his graphic to destroy the cheap ass horns in those JBL or Peavey shit cabinets and deafen your customers. Customers get headaches and don't come back.jangel wrote:Its always easy to tell someone else how to run a business. Not everyone runs a bar right....they come and go. Bar owners that is. Everyone knows how to make it especially when they have a few drinks. If I would have listened to all the " you need to do it this way" stuff I would have went under years ago. As far as the band business goes here are some of the problems:
1. New band no following are charging what the bands with a following charge and thus end up with no crowd. Band is pissed / bar owner pissed
chance of getting rebooked.......zip!
The moral of the story is bands need (some) money to pay the sound guy so they sound good and people want to listen. 115 dB of 80hz and 5k all night is not my idea of a good sound guy.
HA. Most bars take a cut which is bull shit. If you can't run your LIQUIOR establishment on LIQUOR sales then WTF.Try playing for the door....build a following.
No what he is saying is that people don't go to bars to drink unless they are alcoholics. They go for entertainment. So make it nice, and have GOOD entertainment and people will come.you are not saying that all bars are dark and dirty are you?
but I would say your wrong on this one.
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RobTheDrummer
- Diamond Member
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- Joined: Tuesday Dec 10, 2002
- Location: Tiptonia, Pa
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bassist_25
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6815
- Joined: Monday Dec 09, 2002
- Location: Indiana
Wow, there are some good dicussions going on in this thread. I had a long post written out, but I kind of rambled in it and sounded a bit self-righteous. So anyways...
It sucks that Crowbar has closed. It sucks for the regional bands with steady gigs there and it sucks for the people who went and saw national acts. Though I'm not overly worried about it, because I'm sure anyone with any business sense is going to buy it and reopen, hopefully as a more relaxed place on non-entertainment nights as Steve says.
Now with the points about paying bands, etc.
1. No band straight out of the starting gate should ever expect to make a grand a night. That's just silly. It's a numbers game: You take a look at your demographics, what overhead you're willing to pay, and book the clubs that meet your criteria. You will never make a thousand dollars at the Hitching Post, but you don't need to hire a sound guy to play there either. A $1500 Carvin system will get the job done, so you don't need to make a grand just to pay a sound company. If you play a big room, then sound is required. A band should be expected to be able to have their own small PA for a room like the Hitching Post. A band shouldn't automatically be expected to own the $20 grand worth of PA and lighting equipment to play one of the larger rooms. Therefore, it's not unreasonable at all for a band to ask for $600+ so they can hire a production company. Some club owners expect a band to hire professional sound and then either pay them squat or pay them the door. I'm sorry, but if you pay the door and expect the band to have pro-sound, then you do what Claudio or Aldo did: You invest in a QUALITY in-house system and hire a QUALITY soundman to run it. Don't expect a band to take a $300 risk. There are two clubs we hire production and play for the door. We have a proven track record at one club, and if for some freak reason we bombed one night, we have a good enough relationship and rapport with the club owner and soundman (they're brothers) that they would work with us somehow. The other club booked us for a flat rate to begin with so we could build a following in the area. Then when we started matching/making more at the door, they moved us over to that arrangement. But going back to my original point about new bands shouldn't expect high pay...
2. Bands like Backstreet Law, Green Eggs, HF1, etc. got where they are by working their asses off, and any club who books them will be getting a quality product. Like most things in life - even with bands - you usually get what you pay for. All things equal*, if a club has a choice between booking a $250 rock band and a $750 rock band, I can guarantee that the he'll be getting either a $250 band or a $750 band. The second band is probably going to be tighter and be a bigger draw. So while the owner may think he's getting a bargain with band A, he may be disappointed when there are twenty people in the club for band A, as opposed to the 250 that would have come to see band B. I've seen it happen to a number of clubs - and I won't name names, but I can think of a very good example - but when a place has a reputation for consistently booking crap, their attendance drops off. Book garbage and see low attendance. Garbage bands play for peanuts. See where I'm going with this? Of course, just because you play a SMALL room for a couple hundred dollars doesn't mean your a garbage band. I'm talking about large capacity clubs trying to hire bands for a dance and a song (no pun intended).
Well, there we go. I didn't ramble so much, but I still probably sounded self-righteous. This post was in no way a slam against any particular club owner or club owners in general. I know that it's a tough business, and I sympathize with what club owners try to do. I'm just trying to give a musician's perspective of some of the crap we have to wade through, and some of the owners who think that they should be able to have their cake and eat it too.
*By all things equal, I'm comparing apples to apples, i.e. rock band to rock band or country band to country band. You can have a group full of brilliant jazz musicians, but they'll never make as much as a dance-oriented band. I wasn't saying that a blues band should have the same scale as a "party" band, but a more expensive blues band will probably be of higher quality than a cheaper blues band, etc.
It sucks that Crowbar has closed. It sucks for the regional bands with steady gigs there and it sucks for the people who went and saw national acts. Though I'm not overly worried about it, because I'm sure anyone with any business sense is going to buy it and reopen, hopefully as a more relaxed place on non-entertainment nights as Steve says.
Now with the points about paying bands, etc.
1. No band straight out of the starting gate should ever expect to make a grand a night. That's just silly. It's a numbers game: You take a look at your demographics, what overhead you're willing to pay, and book the clubs that meet your criteria. You will never make a thousand dollars at the Hitching Post, but you don't need to hire a sound guy to play there either. A $1500 Carvin system will get the job done, so you don't need to make a grand just to pay a sound company. If you play a big room, then sound is required. A band should be expected to be able to have their own small PA for a room like the Hitching Post. A band shouldn't automatically be expected to own the $20 grand worth of PA and lighting equipment to play one of the larger rooms. Therefore, it's not unreasonable at all for a band to ask for $600+ so they can hire a production company. Some club owners expect a band to hire professional sound and then either pay them squat or pay them the door. I'm sorry, but if you pay the door and expect the band to have pro-sound, then you do what Claudio or Aldo did: You invest in a QUALITY in-house system and hire a QUALITY soundman to run it. Don't expect a band to take a $300 risk. There are two clubs we hire production and play for the door. We have a proven track record at one club, and if for some freak reason we bombed one night, we have a good enough relationship and rapport with the club owner and soundman (they're brothers) that they would work with us somehow. The other club booked us for a flat rate to begin with so we could build a following in the area. Then when we started matching/making more at the door, they moved us over to that arrangement. But going back to my original point about new bands shouldn't expect high pay...
2. Bands like Backstreet Law, Green Eggs, HF1, etc. got where they are by working their asses off, and any club who books them will be getting a quality product. Like most things in life - even with bands - you usually get what you pay for. All things equal*, if a club has a choice between booking a $250 rock band and a $750 rock band, I can guarantee that the he'll be getting either a $250 band or a $750 band. The second band is probably going to be tighter and be a bigger draw. So while the owner may think he's getting a bargain with band A, he may be disappointed when there are twenty people in the club for band A, as opposed to the 250 that would have come to see band B. I've seen it happen to a number of clubs - and I won't name names, but I can think of a very good example - but when a place has a reputation for consistently booking crap, their attendance drops off. Book garbage and see low attendance. Garbage bands play for peanuts. See where I'm going with this? Of course, just because you play a SMALL room for a couple hundred dollars doesn't mean your a garbage band. I'm talking about large capacity clubs trying to hire bands for a dance and a song (no pun intended).
Well, there we go. I didn't ramble so much, but I still probably sounded self-righteous. This post was in no way a slam against any particular club owner or club owners in general. I know that it's a tough business, and I sympathize with what club owners try to do. I'm just trying to give a musician's perspective of some of the crap we have to wade through, and some of the owners who think that they should be able to have their cake and eat it too.
*By all things equal, I'm comparing apples to apples, i.e. rock band to rock band or country band to country band. You can have a group full of brilliant jazz musicians, but they'll never make as much as a dance-oriented band. I wasn't saying that a blues band should have the same scale as a "party" band, but a more expensive blues band will probably be of higher quality than a cheaper blues band, etc.
"He's the electric horseman, you better back off!" - old sKool making a reference to the culturally relevant 1979 film.
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kissmydagoass
- Gold Member
- Posts: 101
- Joined: Monday Jul 19, 2004
- Location: Right here.
- Contact:
I was wondering when this was going to happen. Crowbar never made any sense to me. Advertising always seemed half assed and the habit of trying to get other people to fill up their open nights with only a weeks notice and then bitch when they didn't make any money, never seemed to me a good way to keep the cash flowing in.
I remember on show featuring one of my favorite bands Agnostic Front. I know a lot of you probably don't know who they, but they are one of the founding fathers of the hardcore scene. They've been around for ages have a huge following for a band that, to my knowledge, has never been on a major label. I about fell out of my chair when I found out they were playing in central PA on Pollstar. Only it wasn't on their website. I called around to all the places they sell Crowbar tickets in State College, no one had any idea what I was talking about. Called the Crowbar and asked the staff, again NO idea what I was talking about. So my friend Tim and I bought are tickets off ticketweb since we wouldn't be able to get there till late and we didn't want to run the risk of the show being sold, after all it was Agnostic Front. We get there we get inside and low and behold there are maybe 50 people there. That's including the opening bands. 50 people when with just a couple of kids running around handing out flyers for free tickets the could have had at the very least 200. It could have been packed if they had just bothered to update their website and maybe put an add in the newspaper.
So no big suprise there. I don't think the Crowbar is closing because there is a lack of people interested in going out to see live music or a lousy set up. I think it's more of a management issue. Just my two cents.
I remember on show featuring one of my favorite bands Agnostic Front. I know a lot of you probably don't know who they, but they are one of the founding fathers of the hardcore scene. They've been around for ages have a huge following for a band that, to my knowledge, has never been on a major label. I about fell out of my chair when I found out they were playing in central PA on Pollstar. Only it wasn't on their website. I called around to all the places they sell Crowbar tickets in State College, no one had any idea what I was talking about. Called the Crowbar and asked the staff, again NO idea what I was talking about. So my friend Tim and I bought are tickets off ticketweb since we wouldn't be able to get there till late and we didn't want to run the risk of the show being sold, after all it was Agnostic Front. We get there we get inside and low and behold there are maybe 50 people there. That's including the opening bands. 50 people when with just a couple of kids running around handing out flyers for free tickets the could have had at the very least 200. It could have been packed if they had just bothered to update their website and maybe put an add in the newspaper.
So no big suprise there. I don't think the Crowbar is closing because there is a lack of people interested in going out to see live music or a lousy set up. I think it's more of a management issue. Just my two cents.
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ToonaRockGuy
- Diamond Member
- Posts: 3091
- Joined: Tuesday Dec 17, 2002
- Location: Altoona, behind a drumset.
Crowbar closing sucks.
I'm going to carefully choose my words here, so I don't piss anyone off. And if I sound sef-righteous or arrogant, I'm not being so, it's just your interpretation.
I've been playing here in Central PA since 1993. I know a lot of people that have been playing here a LOT longer. But in that time, I've played more than my share of crap gigs for little or no money, with half-assed PA and no crowds. I've played a few nice rooms and had some nice crowds, with rented PA. I thought that I knew it all about the music biz, in dealing with local clubs, owners, and patrons, and I got somewhat arrogant at times, as people will tell you. It's one of my faults.
Then I joined Scream.
Now, I see how the whole biz goes together. I'm not nearly as arrogant, although I know that a few people think that I am. When people ask me why Scream doesn't play in Altoona, my answer is that nobody here can afford us or is willing to pay us. It's not arrogance. It's fact. We're always willing to work with the ownership to get established, but most owners don't acknowledge the fact that we're not a "new" band, we do have a following, and we have more extensive overhead costs than most bands, too. There are costs that need to be met, including gas, and pay for our production crew and tons of gear. (We employ not only the band, but a sound/light/road crew of at least 6 every show.)
I enjoy playing out in front of a crowd. I love to entertain people. But at my age and at this point of my life, I do what I call the "50/50 rule". I play 50% for me, to save my sanity. But I also play 50% for the money. I'm past the age of the desire to be discovered, or write the next great rock song. I do this for the extra money. And if I'm not going to get paid at least half-decently, it's not worth my time away from my family to drag my ass out and put forth the effort. Call me arrogant, call me jaded, call me whatever you want. (Except Warren.) But my time is worth money. I do take part in benefit shows as often as I can. But I'm not a rich man, so I can't afford to do a lot of freebies or "door only" shows.
I think I lost my train of thought somewhere along the way here. But I did want to share this, since I do know that a lot of people think that they "know" how to run a bar. It's a lot harder than what you think. And if you think you know it all, you can guarantee that you don't.
I'm going to carefully choose my words here, so I don't piss anyone off. And if I sound sef-righteous or arrogant, I'm not being so, it's just your interpretation.
I've been playing here in Central PA since 1993. I know a lot of people that have been playing here a LOT longer. But in that time, I've played more than my share of crap gigs for little or no money, with half-assed PA and no crowds. I've played a few nice rooms and had some nice crowds, with rented PA. I thought that I knew it all about the music biz, in dealing with local clubs, owners, and patrons, and I got somewhat arrogant at times, as people will tell you. It's one of my faults.
Then I joined Scream.
Now, I see how the whole biz goes together. I'm not nearly as arrogant, although I know that a few people think that I am. When people ask me why Scream doesn't play in Altoona, my answer is that nobody here can afford us or is willing to pay us. It's not arrogance. It's fact. We're always willing to work with the ownership to get established, but most owners don't acknowledge the fact that we're not a "new" band, we do have a following, and we have more extensive overhead costs than most bands, too. There are costs that need to be met, including gas, and pay for our production crew and tons of gear. (We employ not only the band, but a sound/light/road crew of at least 6 every show.)
I enjoy playing out in front of a crowd. I love to entertain people. But at my age and at this point of my life, I do what I call the "50/50 rule". I play 50% for me, to save my sanity. But I also play 50% for the money. I'm past the age of the desire to be discovered, or write the next great rock song. I do this for the extra money. And if I'm not going to get paid at least half-decently, it's not worth my time away from my family to drag my ass out and put forth the effort. Call me arrogant, call me jaded, call me whatever you want. (Except Warren.) But my time is worth money. I do take part in benefit shows as often as I can. But I'm not a rich man, so I can't afford to do a lot of freebies or "door only" shows.
I think I lost my train of thought somewhere along the way here. But I did want to share this, since I do know that a lot of people think that they "know" how to run a bar. It's a lot harder than what you think. And if you think you know it all, you can guarantee that you don't.
Dood...
Nightcrawler Steve - I think you were agreeing with me, or maybe not...I'm not sure...I think you were debating over a case of semantics and incorrect interpretation.....
- The fact is that we agree that Crowbar is not a good place to chill....
- and I think that it's not helpful for them to have higher priced bands playing for smaller crowds during the slow periods - it's just not good for business is all I am stating
- we both agree that it was good for local music scene and local bands in general
Somewhere along the way they screwed up if they are closing the doors....that's all....I am not there or in their inner circle of knowledge so I have no f'ing clue (like everyone else)
- The fact is that we agree that Crowbar is not a good place to chill....
- and I think that it's not helpful for them to have higher priced bands playing for smaller crowds during the slow periods - it's just not good for business is all I am stating
- we both agree that it was good for local music scene and local bands in general
Somewhere along the way they screwed up if they are closing the doors....that's all....I am not there or in their inner circle of knowledge so I have no f'ing clue (like everyone else)
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nightcrawler_steve
Hey ASB! yeah we are definitely in agreement except I was trying to say they dont overpay the local bands - its a door deal and a terrible one at that.
Bottom line: Crowbar closing = major suckness
Theres already a groundswell of disapproval here in town about this. Everybody is pissed. If that doesnt entice some new owner or lease' I dont know what will.
I just got an email from CB management thanking us for the support and sorry they have to close. I dont think its gonna reopen as a Dantes owned establishment.
Bottom line: Crowbar closing = major suckness
Theres already a groundswell of disapproval here in town about this. Everybody is pissed. If that doesnt entice some new owner or lease' I dont know what will.
I just got an email from CB management thanking us for the support and sorry they have to close. I dont think its gonna reopen as a Dantes owned establishment.
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lonewolf
- Diamond Member
- Posts: 6249
- Joined: Thursday Sep 25, 2003
- Location: Anywhere, Earth
- Contact:
Its pretty tough to not make money with a bar in downtown State College. If a bar is losing money, it would almost have to be doing something that nobody is much interested in anymore. That does not necessarily mean live music.
I was still living in SC when they created the Crowbar (hung out with Blue Oyster Cult there) and quite frankly, I am surprised that it lasted this long. That building layout just doesn't lend itself to mass live entertainment. A simple building like the old SCORPION works better.
I assume that Herlocher still owns the property. If that is true, I'm sure he won't waste any time getting something in there.
I was still living in SC when they created the Crowbar (hung out with Blue Oyster Cult there) and quite frankly, I am surprised that it lasted this long. That building layout just doesn't lend itself to mass live entertainment. A simple building like the old SCORPION works better.
I assume that Herlocher still owns the property. If that is true, I'm sure he won't waste any time getting something in there.
Last edited by lonewolf on Wednesday May 17, 2006, edited 1 time in total.
...Oh, the freedom of the day that yielded to no rule or time...
See you Saturday, 40 miles from here. ---------->JMS