Pentagon strike

[witchhunt]

http://www.pentagonstrike.co.uk/flash.htm#Main

Pentagon strike...you decide.

[Blain]

It's unfortunate that there is a kook fringe that actually believes in some vast 9-11 conspiracy, and unfortunatly there is no evidence whatsoever that will convince said kook fringe that there wasn't.

[rreihart]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... ose+change

I am not in your so called "kook fringe" but some points in the above video definitely provoke thought. Nobody really knows exactly what happened that day.

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

It's unfortunate that there is a kook fringe that actually believes in some vast 9-11 conspiracy, and unfortunatly there is no evidence whatsoever that will convince said kook fringe that there wasn't.

im sorry, but for me not being much of a conspiracy-theorist here, i have to say - anybody who believes a large fucking airliner flew THAT LOW, THAT FAST into the pentagon, and left minimal damage, needs their god damn head examined..

and if this isnt the case - then why havent we seen evidence to the contrary? we've seen a million different tapes of the WTC attack, what happened to all the videos of the pentagon, from all the convenience stores and "pentagon owned" gas stations, that had their tapes taken from them - within what, 15 minutes of the accident? and oh yeah - that hole, im sorry - but a large fucking airliner - would have leveled one half of the pentagon - that hole was nothing more than a punch hole in a piece of paper..

[Banned]

Of course the Pentagon didn't take much damage . . . it's a military target and is designed to take one hell of a good hit. Especially when the hit is coming from a thin, hollow jetliner that isn't designed as a weapon.

The same goes for all of the damage control/information control you saw right after the Pentagon got hit. That building is on alert for attacks 24-7. They have extensive procedures and policies in place for such an event. Just because they were prepared for a traumatic event doesn't mean they initiated it.

There's a big logical hole in the conspiracy/missile theory that I can't get over. Let's say that there was, in fact, a government conspiracy to stage 9-11. Then look at the methods employed. The attacks in New York were highly visible. They were clearly, undeniably executed using jetliners. Then why stage using a completely different method at the Pentagon, and then lie about it? Why not just use another plane? Why not blanket the media with visuals, if visual impact is what you want? Why bother with that attack at all then?

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

im just saying - a massive 757 would have created MUCH more fucking damage than whatever hit the pentagon did. I dont care how strong your building may be - the World Trade Center was built to withstand an accident like what happened on 9/11, but the difference this time and an accident would be all the burning fuel..

Airplanes carry immense amounts of fuel, that would have burned atleast half the pentagon to a char.. that building was able to be worked in later that day - seems a little off to me..

Not to mention the FBI was confiscating videos left and right.. now, in New York City - everybody went into panic mode.. yet in D.C. everything was nice an organized - my ass, if an airplane had just flown 25 feet above I-495 and then crashed into the pentagon in plain view of everybody - it would have been total chaos.. the FBI would not have been going around taking tapes right away.. not fuckin happening..

All this to me, just reminds me of the Norwoods Plan that was sketched up in the 60s, in which the U.S. government was going to fake an airplane attack by Cuba to invade.. google that shit up, you'll be blown away

[tornandfrayed]

It's unfortunate that there is a kook fringe that actually believes the existing government, and unfortunatly there is no evidence whatsoever that will convince said kook fringe that they are lying there ass's off.

I am sorry but try this on for size. Military intelligence picks up on the fact that there is going to be a terrorist attack on the Wrold trade Center, certain powers that be find an opportunity to possibly "Take Out" some non believers over in the Pentagon. The tragedy is blamed on terrorists and the Country Bands together for a few months.

That plane did not look like a 757. Who knows? I don't trust the government because I don't think they give a crap about you and me.

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

It's unfortunate that there is a kook fringe that actually believes the existing government, and unfortunatly there is no evidence whatsoever that will convince said kook fringe that they are lying there ass's off.

I am sorry but try this on for size. Military intelligence picks up on the fact that there is going to be a terrorist attack on the Wrold trade Center, certain powers that be find an opportunity to possibly "Take Out" some non believers over in the Pentagon. The tragedy is blamed on terrorists and the Country Bands together for a few months.

That plane did not look like a 757. Who knows? I don't trust the government because I don't think they give a crap about you and me.

bro, this confused the hell out of me, it looks like you're taking both stances, until the end - can you elaborate a little? much appreciated

[tornandfrayed]

Gary I am just saying that blindly following anyone can cause problems. People have been known to be deceptive and I feel that power can corrupt people. Anyone disagree with that statment?

So our Government needs to be held accountable, I know that the conversation on RP tends to be focused on two different ends of the spectrum but I propose that we are buying into the plan when we argue amongst ourselves. I would not put it past the governemnt to have had something to do with the 9/11 tragedy. I said "Government" not GWB not anyone mand in particular. But these people are not in touch with you and I, they are rich and powerful and they want to keep it that way.

I think that by creating the amount of tension that this Country is induring the bulk of the focus stays away from things that could really matter.

Reagrdless of your political tilt we still need to hold the government accountable? Do we all agree with that?

I was re-phrasing the comment from above in the first paragraph of my original post.

Peace!

[songsmith]

I have two words for you. Jack Bauer.

Seriously, though, the Pentagon plane didn't travel in a near straight line like the WTC planes, it went into PA and then turned for DC. It would have had less fuel.
The WTC hits were the most photographed disasters in US history. I watched the second one on the Today Show. A million Federal agents couldn't take the tapes on those ones. I happened in real time, and after the initial hit, everybody in the whole world was watching (remember, the first hit was initially thought to be an accident). Meanwhile, the Pentagon, a secretive military installation, didn't have 10 million people with camcorders watching it get hit, and it was hundreds of miles away from the other targets. Nobody saw it coming until it was too late. Same reason the Flight 93 passengers ditched the plane... the fighter jets were scrambled, but didn't get there in time.
Huge, gaping obvious mistakes were made since 9/11, but I believe that day Bin Laden had us by the short curlies, and would could be done was done, at least in the short term. At the time, I pointed out the definition of the word, "potential." Potential is a small group of uneducated mentally-ill religious extremists bringing the greatest country in human history to it's collective knees with CARDBOARD CUTTERS. Denying that with conspiracy theories is just burying your head in the sand.
Just my .02 drachmas.---------------->JMS

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

Gary I am just saying that blindly following anyone can cause problems. People have been known to be deceptive and I feel that power can corrupt people. Anyone disagree with that statment?

So our Government needs to be held accountable, I know that the conversation on RP tends to be focused on two different ends of the spectrum but I propose that we are buying into the plan when we argue amongst ourselves. I would not put it past the governemnt to have had something to do with the 9/11 tragedy. I said "Government" not GWB not anyone mand in particular. But these people are not in touch with you and I, they are rich and powerful and they want to keep it that way.

I think that by creating the amount of tension that this Country is induring the bulk of the focus stays away from things that could really matter.

Reagrdless of your political tilt we still need to hold the government accountable? Do we all agree with that?

I was re-phrasing the comment from above in the first paragraph of my original post.

Peace!

cool, thanks. i agree.

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

Potential is a small group of uneducated mentally-ill religious extremists bringing the greatest country in human history to it's collective knees with CARDBOARD CUTTERS.

.. sorry JMS - I took your post seriously until you stated the words "the greatest country in human history"..

do you know the United States is the greatest country in human history? and how can that be measured? The Roman Empire was pretty fucking impressive, considering technology wasnt all that great. Mongolia was a very prosperous and advanced country back in its time - in Ancient Asia, and the like.. In the period from around 1400 - 1778, England and the United Kingdom was the most prosperous country in the world, technologically, industrial, and military - but how can you honestly measure and determine the "greatest country in human history"..

im sorry if this offends you, but ignorance like this offends me - dont get me wrong, i LOVE America - but do I think it's the greatest country in the world right now? depends - militarily, yeah probably - governmental, christ no - technological, not a chance. Business? yeah, capitalism is a very good thing when done right.. Do I think the United States is the greatest country in human history? like I said.. nobody can determine that, no matter what you think - however if I had to make a guess.. I would guess the Roman Empire was the greatest Empire/State/Country in human existance..

just my opinion

[RobTheDrummer]

Who knows what happened? The pentagon is a huge fucking building! And Mr. Jimi Hatt is right about it being made to take a hit. There are accounts of the plane hitting the ground first, then slamming into the building. If that's the case, the fireball would have consumed the lighter parts of the craft (wings and tail) and the cockpit would have been like an arrow b-lining right through the building because that's the reinforced part of the plane. The forces involved in a plane crash are devistating.

People look at footage of other plane crashes and you really don't have the same factors. A plane crashes in a field, it's not a hard hit like lets say..THE PENTAGON! Also, other crashes the pilots probably eased the plane down the best they could, I mean, they weren't aiming to kill themselves. Also, if you look at the WTC crashes, the planes hit and almost instantaneously disintigrate with small debris flying around. We're talkin 500 mph head on fucking crash into the Pentagon which is a reinforced military building. That's my take on it, and it could be proved either way, that would be cool. Too many conspiracy theories out there today...I mean the Columbia disaster back in 86 was like this...who really cares? I mean, what happened to 77 if they didn't crash it? Wouldn't air controllers find it? Right after WTC, the skies were full of US Air Force planes and all flights were made to land. It would have to have been accounted for somewhere. Family members in the 77 would have been in contact with someone, but where are they? Dead, they hit the Pentagon.

What do you think Ron? You work on planes and shit from time to time. You've probably been on them all!

Shoulda hit the senate building instead, then we might have been able to put some real politicians in power.

[songsmith]

The Roman empire fell. 1500 years ago. I thought you knew.
The US economy, despite the recent runaway success of the Chinese, is THE driving influence in the world economy. We use fully half of the world's resources. We are consumers on a scale the Roman Empire couldn't comprehend. We won World War II, the largest conflict in human history. There are tenfold more people on this planet now than there were then, probably more. The United States drives nearly all advances in technology in the world over the last 150 years, from the telephone to the light bulb to the World Wide Web. The Romans never made a cell call, flew an airplane or walked on the moon. Romans treated illnesses with bloodletting and cupping, not penicillin and chemo. The Romans had a Senate, but they also had a King. (Okay, you got me there )
I could go on and on, but in short, the world's a much bigger place that it was 1500 years ago, and the Roman Empire lies in ruin, as a tourist attraction.
You don't have to take me seriously, in fact, I couldn't possibly care less about that. But you're not going to convince me that an administration that couldn't find it's own ass with either hand bombed it's own citizenry, then it's own military central operations, then covered it up. They're just not capable.----------->JMS

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

The Roman empire fell. 1500 years ago. I thought you knew.

Yes, but it was also around much much longer than the United States to date, and for their time - the Roman Empire did things the U.S. nor any other governing body could ever do - indisputable fact..

The US economy, despite the recent runaway success of the Chinese, is THE driving influence in the world economy. We use fully half of the world's resources. We are consumers on a scale the Roman Empire couldn't comprehend.

Once again, this comes back to times, in Ancient day the Romans didnt need to consume other's resources because they had their own. Dependancy is not a measure of strength - I would say production is - the United States doesnt produce much of anything anymore, whereas the Roman Empire was large enough, they used their own - and what little they imported, was from neighboring China..

We won World War II, the largest conflict in human history. There are tenfold more people on this planet now than there were then, probably more.

I agree on this - good point

The United States drives nearly all advances in technology in the world over the last 150 years, from the telephone to the light bulb to the World Wide Web.

We may have MADE those advances, but the other countries have surpassed us on them - even with the simplest of things - internet speed.. Internet connection and speed in Europe/Asia is nearly 2.5 times faster than in the U.S. with Asia having nearly that many more people that us - being a person who's paycheck depends on the internet - this makes me sick.

India, is becoming the greatest technological power in the world as far as I.T. development/repair - it's not a mistake that when your dell fucks up, you talk to an Indian on the phone - he's not there just because he'll work cheaper, it's because he is more intellegent than John Boy, who doesnt understand that ctrl+alt+delete will offer you the chance to restart or lock your computer if tied into a T1 network.

The Romans never made a cell call, flew an airplane or walked on the moon. Romans treated illnesses with bloodletting and cupping, not penicillin and chemo.

Once again, you're holding flaws with times. Technological advances should not count against times in which there was none. And even still, the Egyptians were efficient enough to construct concrete, and lose the recipie for concrete long before we ever used it - hell, we used sod until the late 1800s...

I'm not saying you're right or wrong here - and im not saying i didnt take you seriously on everything - I just refuse to sit and listen to rhetoric by the general public (it's not just you, songsmith - it's everybody) when if we would all just take a few minutes and read a fucking book, we would all be much more enlightened..

and this is why, in recent studies - children in the United States were found to be of the same intellegence level as children from Latvia .. not too comforting.

[RobTheDrummer]

India, is becoming the greatest technological power in the world as far as I.T. development/repair - it's not a mistake that when your dell fucks up, you talk to an Indian on the phone - he's not there just because he'll work cheaper, it's because he is more intellegent than John Boy, who doesnt understand that ctrl+alt+delete will offer you the chance to restart or lock your computer if tied into a T1 network.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! They hire them because they are CHEAP! Not smart. They have a friggin book they read out of to tell you whats goin on. They don't know the shit, you can barely understand them. HAHA! Did you ever sit and talk to one of them people? They don't understand anything you say and what your problem even is! You sit on the phone for a half hour and you give up, now that's great IT for ya! So you just call up one of the million people you know here that know computers...thankfully, I'm ok at it.

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

India, is becoming the greatest technological power in the world as far as I.T. development/repair - it's not a mistake that when your dell fucks up, you talk to an Indian on the phone - he's not there just because he'll work cheaper, it's because he is more intellegent than John Boy, who doesnt understand that ctrl+alt+delete will offer you the chance to restart or lock your computer if tied into a T1 network.

That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard! They hire them because they are CHEAP! Not smart. They have a friggin book they read out of to tell you whats goin on. They don't know the shit, you can barely understand them. HAHA!

I promise you Rob, they know more without speaking coherent english than you could EVER hope to learn - what you just executed in saying "they dont know the shit, you can barely understand them" is a massive episode of nothing more than uncultured bias - i dont give a fuck where you are now, or where you have been - what you just said spoke volumes for your inability to look into people..

I went to college with kids from India, who were the same age and of the same opportunity as me, now that they had come over - and they had known more than I could ever hope to learn at that stage, and I have been doing this shit since 8th grade, which going to high school at Southern Huntingdon, the fact I knew ANYTHING is impressive, but i passed tests that college kids didnt in 10th grade - for you to say they're cheap and thats the only reason why they would work there is just wrong and retarded, hey man - if they're citizens (and a lot of them are) they have to be paid the same, so you can take your logic and throw it out.

Just because somebody has an accent, doesnt mean they cant speak english - hell, they probably speak better english than you, I, or anybody on here ever could.. Just because I still carry an english accent when speaking German or Slovak, does NOT mean I dont speak the languages, take your head out of your ass man, please.

[RobTheDrummer]

Oh and the whole Roman Empire thing...America is leagues ahead of where that was. The population of the Roman Empire was a total of 120 million within it's range at it's peak! The economy was based hugely on slave trade. We had that here for a little bit, but we are too great to deal with inhumanity. The government system is the only similar aspect of what we have here today, which is why they lasted as long as they did.

If you look at where we progressed in the last 150 years, it's just stunning! Until America showed up, there was almost no technological progress anywhere. There would be no Japanese market because they were pretty much a dictatorship. After WW2 they got their shit together. China wouldn't be anywhere if they weren't making everything that we buy. India is getting more advanced because of the US outsourcing and SCHOOLING. Foriegners come here to live, go to school, work, and all kinds of stuff. Every country could owe America some form of consideration, but we don't care. That's our role.

Another note: How did Rome get it's empire? They fought and conquered! If we so much as piss on another country's soil, we get a bunch of bullshit about invasion! I'm done spouting off for now. Check out this site, everything you wanna know about Rome. http://www.unrv.com/

[rreihart]

he's not there just because he'll work cheaper, it's because he is more intellegent than John Boy, who doesnt understand that ctrl+alt+delete will offer you the chance to restart or lock your computer if tied into a T1 network.

I am pretty certain it's due to economics. And I think what you were looking for here is "connected to a network domain". What does the bandwidth of said network have to with it?

[songsmith]

Once again, this comes back to times, in Ancient day the Romans didnt need to consume other's resources because they had their own.

They actually had relatively few natural resources... it was, after all, just Italy in the beginning. They gained resources by simply annexing the places they wanted, and enslaving the locals.

We may have MADE those advances, but the other countries have surpassed us on them - even with the simplest of things - internet speed.. Internet connection and speed in Europe/Asia is nearly 2.5 times faster than in the U.S. with Asia having nearly that many more people that us - being a person who's paycheck depends on the internet - this makes me sick.

I compare that to me writing a good song, and someone else tweaking a few words to make it better. I still wrote it. Plus, when Europe and Asia have the same network saturation as we do, they'll be just as slow. We're the reason 95% of the internet is in English

India, is becoming the greatest technological power in the world as far as I.T. development/repair - it's not a mistake that when your dell fucks up, you talk to an Indian on the phone - he's not there just because he'll work cheaper, it's because he is more intellegent than John Boy, who doesnt understand that ctrl+alt+delete will offer you the chance to restart or lock your computer if tied into a T1 network.

Sajeev better be intelligent. There are a billion other guys in line behind him because he makes more money than a doctor in India, which is still less than he'd make here, otherwise the job would go to John Boy in the first place. Note as well, that you're calling him from the US, not the other way around.

Once again, you're holding flaws with times. Technological advances should not count against times in which there was none.

The electron existed then. Why didn't they figure that out? My point was that these United States represent the greatest advances in government, technologies, society, and most other disciplines. I'm the first to admit we're not perfection personified, but let's give credit where credit is due. When this country started, only the rich could read, the only way to travel or communicate over long distances was by water or on horseback, people lived about 45 years on average, the King had the final say in everything you did, and barbers were also doctors. Now think of everything that has changed since then. Of course, the USA wasn't responsible for everything, but, by and large, we did that. If we didn't exist as population of creators and consumers and workers, to propel history, then the world would likely be what the Middle East is now... a Third World disaster, wracked by tribal infighting and Old World monarchic backwardness. We'd be surrounded by natural resources with no idea how to benefit from them. We'd either be conquerors, or slaves, with no middle ground. We'd have a State religion.

If anything, this discussion, which is excellent, by the way, has helped me focus on what we're good at, instead of what we suck at. Thanks for the discourse! I needed a political conversation that didn't have Lee Greenwood playing in the background, and that didn't feature radio talk-show cliches. I have a gig to get ready for tonight, though, so Rock On.--------->JMS

[RobTheDrummer]

The line you always hear: "Hey, they had indoor plumbing." OMFG!!! They learned how to put pipes together and move water!!! What genious!

[Ron]

Don't let anyone tell you that the software written in India is better than the software written in the US.

It's not even close. I currently have to work with an embedded software stack for National Semiconductor's latest video enhancement chip that was written in India. It is complete garbage... global variables everywhere, very little error checking, and on top of that, the way it works (when it does work) is pitiful. If the input resolution or format of the incoming video changes, the internal software doesn't just reconfigure the input section of the chip, it reconfigures the entire chip, (twice if the format and resolution change). This makes the device slow to respond to input changes, but the video quality of the (American made) hardware is incredible, so we don't want to just drop our partnership with National either.

We have to either find our own fixes around the internal software flaws, or redesign and rewrite the entire stack, which is at least one man-year's worth of labor.

Prior to this chip, the low level software we received from various semiconductor manufacturers was written in the US and written well.

In software, like anything else, you get what you pay for.

[RobTheDrummer]

Here's a video that only Ron would understand.

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/retro.html

[Ron]

Hahahaha. I wrote some driver software for Rockwell many years ago. That was right before they spun off their digital communications division as Conexant. It wasn't for a flubugator girdle spine though, it was a TV tuner card for a PC.

[RobTheDrummer]

See! I knew it!