question of ethics in running a show...

AtoMikEnRtiA · Post by **AtoMikEnRtiA** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

ok - i have a question for some of you on here - some input is needed because Im not sure how i should feel about this - and I know some of you have more than likely been through it..

ok - so I ran a show Saturday nite in Orbisonia, it was the E.o.A home show - we had 5 other bands (one from Lewistown, one from Du Bois, and one from Harrisburg mainly) and I busted my ass all day saturday, and really for a month to get this show to run smoothly, and I thought it was going to - we had (keyword: HAD) a good crowd, but I still didnt make enough money to cover rent for the building - which was $175.00 so obviously it was gonna be tight to make ends meet - but I was gonna try, anyways..

we had a band there (I will not name them) but they brought roughly 25/30 kids from Lewistown with them - which is awesome - what's not awesome is that during their set, they publically announced they were going to another show later on the evening in Lewistown (Burnham), and after they were done playing - they proceeded to pack up, and every last one of them left, leaving roughly 20 people for the last 2 bands.. they then complained that i couldnt pay them.. here is my dillemma..

I find it ethically wrong, to advertise another show at the one you're involved in - and then proceed to take your entire crowd away from the show you were brought onto, in the name of "scenester trendyness" - they abandoned the last 2 bands for the nite, and stood outside while the co-headliner played their set - instead of leaving.. THEY STOOD OUTSIDE the entire time.. then left - and proceeded to complain. I find this ethically wrong, and their actions in my mind - warranted them forfeiting their pay for playing which wouldnt be much considering I didnt make enough to pay the rent - afterall, if you're not going to support the other bands, and if you're going to take your entire crowd with you - you don't deserve to be paid for doing that - I will not have that..

is this wrong on my behalf, or am I justified in doing what I did, because they abandoned 2 bands - one of which drove from Harrisburg to come play the show - or am I wrong?

rreihart · Post by **rreihart** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

Regardless of what those people did after "their band" played, didn't you already get their money? What does it matter if 20-30 people come in and see one band and then leave? How does that change anything? I've driven all the way to Philadelphia to see the opening act play at a club, but the headliner still reaps the benefit of my buying a ticket.

Also, most bands are where they are because of self promotion. Why wouldn't a band announce that are playing somewhere else later?

AtoMikEnRtiA · Post by **AtoMikEnRtiA** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

rreihart wrote:Regardless of what those people did after "their band" played, didn't you already get their money? What does it matter if 20-30 people come in and see one band and then leave? How does that change anything? I've driven all the way to Philadelphia to see the opening act play at a club, but the headliner still reaps the benefit of my buying a ticket.

Also, most bands are where they are because of self promotion. Why wouldn't a band announce that are playing somewhere else later?

no i understand that - but they werent playing elsewhere - the band involved had a guitarist needing to get to work, which i told them - i understand - but they werent going to play a second show - they were just going to watch - i just find that to be of bad ethics..

and yes, i got their money - but it wasnt enough to pay rent on the building - and if they had droven further than 30 miles, i would have definately paid them, but i had a band drive 100 miles from du bois, and 70 from harrisburg who i had told everybody, gets first payment - i just dont see what they did as right, and in this case - the headlining band reaped NOTHING - in fact we're out uh.. 50 bucks from the show, which doesnt bother me, nearly as much as people leaving it..

Trucula · Post by **Trucula** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

First off...Hell up bro for trying to bring the under 21 crowd "something" to do in a small town on a Sat night!..Not alot of people do enough for the younger crowd in that area, and you deserve credit for trying!...
The other thing,, even tho they announced the show in their set,I am sure all their fans/followers knew it anyway before they went...and would have prob. followed even if they didnt say anything...
They should have expected the chance that alot of money might not have been made...especially in Orbi....and thats a chance you take...1st time show...ect,....takes a few happening in the same area to get it rolling....And having to pay that many bands will run the funds thin!...
BUT I do think it was somewhat low of them to hang outside and not watch/support anyone thats playing...its one thing to have to leave for a show but to be there and stay in the parking lot and complain about money when they could see all the more that you guys made at the door and knowing you have building rent?.....didnt they even think of the bands that drove further than Lewistown and donated their time???
Just my opinion....But Hats off for trying!!

Asundor · Post by **Asundor** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

Hey guys Jason from CYPHIN here. I dont want to offend anyone so please dont take any off this to heart. About the band announcing one of there shows. I no many of bands including CYPHIN that through out the night will remind the crowd of upcomming shows. You no as well as I do word of mouth is one of the best ways to advertise. Now about the band stealing all the fans. If they left on there on free will you should't be mad, but If that band was walking around trying to pull everyone out of there to go and watch there show somewhere else later that day well I can see where you might be a little pissed. Esp when you were nice enough to get them involved with your show. Every band takes a smack in the face, or should I say several for that matters. I no that their is no band out there that likes to play to a few people. You loose some and you win some. Everyone that personally knows you guys and have seen you no you guys F--kin rock. Just kick that one to the back burner and look forward guys. Wish you all the best of luck.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

First things first

- All out of house costs must be paid first. This includes the building you rented. We've walked out of gigs with $30, but we've paid our soundmen their full amount. You have to take care of those people first, because if you don't, you'll ruin your reputation. It's just bad business.

- It was very unprofessional of the band to advertise their show. I don't know what kind of agreement you had with the band (a flat amount, a % of the door, etc.), but you you should have paid them. Again, this comes back to keeping a good reputation and running a good business. You can't dick people by not paying them. You dick them by never hiring them again. If I go to a store and the manager is a jerk, I still pay for the product I'm buying, but then I never patronize that establishment again. There are a lot of sleazy promoters out there, and you want to have a reputation of being a good promoter.

Hope some of this helps, and good luck.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

Their announcement of the other gig ethically sucked, but there are a lot of people out there that would do that among other worse things. If it was not in violation of your contract and if you collected cover charge from all of the crowd that left, then there is no question about what you should do about the other problem:

If you book a band to play for X amount of $ and they fulfill their end of the bargain, you should pay them X amount of $ regardless of how much you made on the venture. To not pay them is a violation of contract and could be taken to civil court. Unless, of course, they agreed to link their payment to the show's profitability.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

Asundor wrote:Hey guys Jason from CYPHIN here. I dont want to offend anyone so please dont take any off this to heart. About the band announcing one of there shows. I no many of bands including CYPHIN that through out the night will remind the crowd of upcomming shows. You no as well as I do word of mouth is one of the best ways to advertise.

There's a difference though between promoting an upcoming show at the same venue and promoting one at a different venue. I'm not going to promote a show at Yesterday's Party as I'm standing on City Limit's stage. It doesn't matter where I am the next week. City Limit's still needs to make money regardless of who's playing.

Of course, if someone walks to me on break and asks me where we are next, that's a different story.

Asundor · Post by **Asundor** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

I understand where your comming from. We just want to remind people where we are playing the following weeks. We are currently in process of making table flyers to hand out at shows instead of doing that. I totally no where your comming from Bassist 25. It's rude to do that while you are playing someone else's venue. By no means have we ever did it to offend anyone though.

DirtySanchez · Post by **DirtySanchez** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

I remember a thread about paying to be in a BOTB.
I responded by saying "WE ALL PAY TO PLAY, BITCHES",
I believe that will always ring true. Being an all ages show there was
probably never any agreement about money cuz, the scene is so
unpredictable. Next time Gary, ask FedUp to play your show.
We'd do it for gas money, (if you made any money), if not, who cares.
HAVE SOME FUCKIN' HEAVY METAL BIRTHDAY CAKE!!!
Chin up Brother,it'll get worse, I promise.

AtoMikEnRtiA · Post by **AtoMikEnRtiA** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

DirtySanchez wrote:I remember a thread about paying to be in a BOTB.
I responded by saying "WE ALL PAY TO PLAY, BITCHES",
I believe that will always ring true. Being an all ages show there was
probably never any agreement about money cuz, the scene is so
unpredictable. Next time Gary, ask FedUp to play your show.
We'd do it for gas money, (if you made any money), if not, who cares.
HAVE SOME FUCKIN' HEAVY METAL BIRTHDAY CAKE!!!
Chin up Brother,it'll get worse, I promise.

hahaha next time, fed up and condemned existance are on - no - no agreement was EVER made (although said band is trying to pin on me i sent them an agreement saying all bands would be paid) - I dont make those type of promises cuz in a county with what - 8 percent un-employment, not many kids can get even 3 bucks to come, what pisses me off is - I've been playing message tag with this band all morning, and the only vibe im getting is they feel I cant run a show, and Im getting a vibe they think they're big fucking rockstars - you know, I lost 270 bucks at the Trocadero in Philadelphia because I myself bought 27 tickets to ensure E.o.A a mainstage show - I spent 140 bucks out of my own wallet last year in Cassville so I could get bands from Harrisburg and Hershey home - and they appreciated the shit out of me for it - fact is, i refuse to do that for Lewistown, it's only 30 miles.. I never made an arrangement for "X" amount of money - they know better than to expect that in this area, and to say differently is bullshit..

i realize, i prolly did a few things wrong - but it still doesnt excuse what they did, no matter whether they knew about the other show or not (like trucula, said) - I even brought that up with them - and they said "oh well excuse me for fucking wanting to support good friends" - im sorry, how about you support the fucking bands you're on this show with? - I mean, this isn't even about E.o.A and these other bands - this is about them coming in, not being able to read fucking signs (as they went in the door that said "NO ENTRY"), giving me shit because I asked for 3 bucks, and refusing to allow a show to turn to shambles - now.. it seems like all of it was for fuckin nothing, and once again, I realize why we dont do home shows much..

I can give you an excact count of shows in Huntingdon county that we have done in the past year or so, and who they were with..

June 2005 - County Line Inn w/ S.O.S
July 2005 - Somebody's birthday party w/ Ajaxx
August 2005 - Cassville Sportsman w/ From Dissension, Lost in the Flood, No Warning Shot
September 2005 - Hurricane benefit
March 2006 - Josh Snyder benefit
April 2006 - Most recent show

next home show
August 19th - 3rd Annual "Crazy White Boy Fest"

that's 6 home shows since last June - what's even sadder - is that we have done shows in Philadelphia, New Jersey, Pittsburgh, Erie Area, Allentown, ect ect ect and have made MORE fans and have had better turnouts there than in our own hometown - and that's why we cant agree to pay bands - unless we make enough to pay rent, and sound if needed.. yet I always seem to empty my wallet, to make sure those bands driving forever - can always hit up Martins and fill their tank - I fail to do it one time, and I'm the asshole? fuck 3 cargo shiploads of that shit!

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

Asundor wrote:I understand where your comming from. We just want to remind people where we are playing the following weeks. We are currently in process of making table flyers to hand out at shows instead of doing that. I totally no where your comming from Bassist 25. It's rude to do that while you are playing someone else's venue. By no means have we ever did it to offend anyone though.

I don't know what venues you do this at, but after a warning, many club owners won't book you back if you announce gigs at competitors' venues over the PA. You would be surprised...some clubs don't even like flyers.

Like all questionable actions, you should clear it with the venue first.

Asundor · Post by **Asundor** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

Damn, I really diden't think by putting flyers on table's that would be a big deal. I do understand what everyone means by announcing it over the PA. I just thought it would be more professional by putting small table flyers around on the tables. Maybe I'm wrong. I've actually watched a few bands do this and I've personally seen people look at them and put them in their pockets. I just figured doing it that way is alot more respectful to the bar owner. But I also realize that it is still a promotion. What do people think I would really like to no a little more of people's opinion's on this. Hopefully this does not get out of control.

BDR · Post by **BDR** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

We use table toppers with only our Web address ... no dates. We let the crowds know our schedule is available on our site and ask them to please take the toppers with them and check us out online. No prob ... no one gets pissed ...

r:>)

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

There's nothing wrong with putting out small "table-toppers" on tables at clubs to promote your shows. But for example, get onstage at City Limits for a show and announce your upcoming show at Aldo's. You'll never play City Limits again. It's just disrespectful to the club owner to vocally promote anything other than what he's got going on.

Here's how I encourage folks to promote themselves and the club they are at when you're onstage. Say something along the lines of, "Hey thanks for coming out to (name of club), make sure and check your table for information on (your band name) and take it with ya!"

It's also always always always a good idea if you are playing on a Friday night to promote that club's Saturday band. The better you look in the eyes of the club owner, the easier it is to get return bookings and more $$$.

AtoMikEnRtiA · Post by **AtoMikEnRtiA** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

BadDazeRob wrote:We use table toppers with only our Web address ... no dates. We let the crowds know our schedule is available on our site and ask them to please take the toppers with them and check us out online. No prob ... no one gets pissed ...

r:>)

and even when you dont expect it.. your website gets mentioned..

case in point - BadDaZerocks.com (i believe that's it?) came up Saturday nite as Randy's wife (i believe she said she was his wife) and her friend Jess made an appearance at our show, and she did a brief "plug" for Bad DaZe to Derek of From their Eyes .. so websites work just as well

table toppers - ive never seen anybody get slack for it - atleast not in Jersey! haha

Big Jim · Post by **Big Jim** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

It sounds to me that the problem may be with the turnout to begin with. If you had 300 kids there, you would have had no problem with the early band leaving and taking 20-30 people. And ther would be money for everyone to get paid. It would have been more proper for them to show support for the other bands, but at that time, the probably didn't give a poop.

Maybe smaller shows (2 bands) could be a little more productive and less hassle, until things grow.

AtoMikEnRtiA · Post by **AtoMikEnRtiA** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

Big Jim wrote:It sounds to me that the problem may be with the turnout to begin with. If you had 300 kids there, you would have had no problem with the early band leaving and taking 20-30 people. And ther would be money for everyone to get paid. It would have been more proper for them to show support for the other bands, but at that time, the probably didn't give a poop.

Maybe smaller shows (2 bands) could be a little more productive and less hassle, until things grow.

see i dont think that would help any, to only have 2 or so bands - and this is an issue that really only those who have witnessed an attempted show in Huntingdon county will truely understand. We're in a county with a very high level of unemployment, and kids dont have the money to spend 5 bucks at a show - or they dont have the means to get to a show - which eliminates 5 dollar cover charges.. and if the show only has 2 bands or such - kids wont go because they wont feel that 3 bucks is worth spending on 2 bands - and to make things worse, in the southern part of huntingdon county - a large majority of the kids are into the current "rap" movement, and want NOTHING to do with original music - and the other kids are either incapable, or just apathetic to anything - it's a real crisis we have, as most kids would rather spend saturday nites getting drunk or doing drugs - that spending a few bucks and going to see kids their own age, making music.

there never has been a scene in Huntingdon county - aside from the local bars, but for the kids - there is nothing, so we would really think it smart to start small - but we've done that, and we get the same results each time, no matter how much we promote, who we get, and what we offer - at the end of the day - the kids all have something better to do.. like sit on the corner by the gas station and bank, and watch people do burn-outs under the red lights..

BDR · Post by **BDR** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

AtoMikEnRtiA wrote:but for the kids - there is nothing, so we would really think it smart to start small - but we've done that, and we get the same results each time, no matter how much we promote, who we get, and what we offer - at the end of the day - the kids all have something better to do.. like sit on the corner by the gas station and bank, and watch people do burn-outs under the red lights..

Sounds like maybe you should reconsider the demographic you're targeting ...

r:>)

AtoMikEnRtiA · Post by **AtoMikEnRtiA** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

BadDazeRob wrote:
AtoMikEnRtiA wrote:but for the kids - there is nothing, so we would really think it smart to start small - but we've done that, and we get the same results each time, no matter how much we promote, who we get, and what we offer - at the end of the day - the kids all have something better to do.. like sit on the corner by the gas station and bank, and watch people do burn-outs under the red lights..
Sounds like maybe you should reconsider the demographic you're targeting ...

r:>)

haha you suggesting i should tell my guys to become a rap group - no fuckin way, im out the door the day that happens haha j.k.

in a way i see a point there, but in all honesty, apathy carries through generations in the southern part of huntingdon county, and i never truely realized that until i moved down to Palmyra (Lebanon county) and went to a couple shows here, where it's all kids - and the same could be said for the Du Bois area - thing is, the vast majority of the shows we do involve older crowds, which in that demographic the responses are exponentially better - so i think it's just the kids in huntingdon county really dont give a fuck haha

we'll see in August - if things dont go well then, we'll prolly 86 shows in the hometown area for good

SpellboundByMetal · Post by **SpellboundByMetal** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

CE will play whenever!!!!!! 10 people.....200 people.....shit...i play for myself...hahaha.

BDR · Post by **BDR** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

AtoMikEnRtiA wrote:haha you suggesting i should tell my guys to become a rap group - no fuckin way, im out the door the day that happens haha j.k.

All I'm saying is if you keep going back to the same well and there's no water there, it might be time to go to another well. There's a market for any type of music, you just have to find it.

Good luck.

r:>)

jangel · Post by **jangel** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

My thoughts on promoting your band in a bar/club, first off I own a bar and ran bands and Dj's, I have also played in bands over the years in every conceiveable venue. If your band has a following and they came to your shows in most cases they know where and when you are playing, however the other portion of the audience are regulars at the venue you are playing. It will appear that you are trying to lure the regulars away from this venue. If they like your band, some may ask you where your playing next and thats no problem, over the PA bad idea. The exception would be if your gig is a special event where there is not regular entertainment( ex firemen picnic). Web pages have helped take some of the burden off (on the job) promoting.
As an owner I would not be happy if you promoted another bar/club that you were going to play especially in my general area. If your in Jtown one night and playing Altoona the next no problem. I've been on both sides of the business.....I watch very carefully what is said over the PA when I'm playing and listen what is going on when hosting.

DirtySanchez · Post by **DirtySanchez** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

Keith... Did you mean WITH yourself? J/K.
But I know that dirty drunken trucker that plays guitar with you
probably masturbates like a spidermonkey.
CONDEMNED EXISTENCE RULES!!!!!

JeffLeeper · Post by **JeffLeeper** » Monday Apr 17, 2006

I've been at this for a long time , and have found out that if you treat the bar-owner with the respect he deserves , you'll make him happy and get more gigs.....That means advertising the bar , and not your band.

At least over the mike , plug the bar. Give them first shot at the crowd.
Your people will follow you anyway , and the ones who are regulars at the bar wuill appreciate a heads-up on the next act performing there.

I like the toppers and word-of-mouth , but the mike has been hired by the bar for the night , so the bar should get the push.

Just my theory , but it's gotten me this far.

Also , kudos on trying to get something going for the kids. That's admirable....but maybe you should start out a little smaller , until you can generate a little cash to pay da bills....Namely the bands....It's tough , but sometimes you have to hold off till a sponsor or pre-paid tickets cover the bills.

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