Non Partisan Political Post

[bfoust]

I like the opinion piece in today's mirror. Basically it says let's kick some ass, nuke iran, and get rid of the illegals.

[byndrsn]

I like the opinion piece in today's mirror. Basically it says let's kick some ass, nuke iran, and get rid of the illegals.

I'll drink to that!

[lonewolf]

Whoops....forgot about the Muslim thing. You know, how basically this religion has saved most math and science over the past several thousand years and is the basis for much of our modern "learnin'". I personally don't know any Muslim person, but I guess that some of you must personally know a LOT of Muslims. Does anyone here have a Muslim friend or enemy? If someone has firsthand knowledge of the Muslim faith, please speak up.

I think that 1st of all, westerners need to make a distinction between Arabic and Islam.

Arabic is an ethnicity. Islam is a religion that began in cca 613...about 1400 years ago. Most Muslims are NOT Arabic, but I might venture to say that most Arabs are Muslim. Our numeral system was created around 400bce by Hindus and then migrated to the west where it was introduced by Muslim Arabs around the time of Charlemagne. It eventually replaced the older Roman numeral system during the Renaissance.

Indonesia, in the East Indies, has the largest population of Muslims at around 200 million. This is more than the entire Arabic region combined. Their ethnicity is east Asian with many diverse sub cultures such as Chinese, Malaysian an Polynesian.

[grimmbass]

Lonewolf...good catch, but remember.....many scientific concepts (such as the true nature of human reproduction) were outlined in Muslim religious texts, as handed to Mohamed from God (according to these texts). Many scientific concepts were indeed preserved by Muslim writings.

[songsmith]

Yep. The Catholic Church felt that only it's elders were worthy of knowing how to read or do math. Serfdom wasn't allowed to read the Bible, lest they come away with their own interpretation. Science was strictly verboten... it would explain some of the wondrous things about life in a way that took some of the wind from the Pope's sails. It still goes on... Creative Design, the world is flat, it's all the same.------->JMS

[Banned]

And Joe, we all know who killed 3000 Americans on Sept 11th, it was the plan of Terrorists piloted by Ossami Bin Ladin. He then hid in Afghanistan!

Remember? We attacked the wrong country, ooops. Sorry! I will not do this again.

Also thank you Kent! Your post is exhilarating!

Your earlier longer post was very moving. Good job. Then to follow it up with this was weak. Who cared where he was or is hiding. Muslim terroritsts are all over the mid east and indonesia. They are in Spain (they blew up a train). They are in England (blew up several subways). they are in France (incited riots that lasted weeks, and killed hundreds). They are in the USA.

Bin Ladin is a figuehead of a terrorist army scattered all over. Most of the bombing of fellow Islams going on now in Iraq are related to El Quada.

We are helping the Iraqi army defeat terrorists right now in an action right now north of Bagdad. Iraqi soldiers are in the lead, as they must, for they can tell who is local and who are the terrorists scumbags form other Islamic countries causing all the bloodshed of innocent people.

I am certainly glad our military is fighing Muslim terrorists in Iraq than in our country.

I am going out wearing something green tonight and having some safe fun with friends, not worrying about car bombs going off at the Hitching Post.

[songsmith]

According to the Bush admin's own intelligence, they weren't in Iraq. They are now. They're smart enough to change the world, that's undeniable.
While we're on Iraq, why do they even deserve democracy? 230 years ago, did some world superpower see our plight and take it upon themselves, at huge national expense, to free us from the bonds of tyranny? Where were the enormous batallions of French, Spanish, or other world-power soldiers? First, we had to go to Iraq because of WMD's. 3 years later the greatest military in the history of humanity found none. That's okay, those poor folks need a US-style democracy, where you're free to think however you like, unless you disagree, then you're an un-American socialist traitor. Where you're free to worship the Fundamentalist God who exercises Supreme Control through the judgement of Fundamentalists. But wait... they chose the WRONG GOD! Then, they insisted on the same tribal bullshit that has been de rigeur for millenia! If we want to stabilize something, try making the North Atlantic dead, glassy calm and stable... much easier.
Question: Does anyone here think Iraq will ever be a stable Democracy, and does anyone feel this will have a beneficial effect in the Mideast as a whole?----------->JMS

[f.sciarrillo]

According to the Bush admin's own intelligence, they weren't in Iraq. They are now. They're smart enough to change the world, that's undeniable.
While we're on Iraq, why do they even deserve democracy? 230 years ago, did some world superpower see our plight and take it upon themselves, at huge national expense, to free us from the bonds of tyranny? Where were the enormous batallions of French, Spanish, or other world-power soldiers? First, we had to go to Iraq because of WMD's. 3 years later the greatest military in the history of humanity found none. That's okay, those poor folks need a US-style democracy, where you're free to think however you like, unless you disagree, then you're an un-American socialist traitor. Where you're free to worship the Fundamentalist God who exercises Supreme Control through the judgement of Fundamentalists. But wait... they chose the WRONG GOD! Then, they insisted on the same tribal bullshit that has been de rigeur for millenia! If we want to stabilize something, try making the North Atlantic dead, glassy calm and stable... much easier.
Question: Does anyone here think Iraq will ever be a stable Democracy, and does anyone feel this will have a beneficial effect in the Mideast as a whole?----------->JMS

One word: OIL

Another thing, when the E85/flex fuel is in full affect the foriegn countries will be hurting. As it will lower our buys by over 80%. We are the largest purchaser of oil they have. So this will put a huge hurting on them

[bassist_25]

Question: Does anyone here think Iraq will ever be a stable Democracy, and does anyone feel this will have a beneficial effect in the Mideast as a whole?----------->JMS

No and no.

[rain wolf]

wow. this is an awesome post.(that started this thread) it is good to see the truth like this. people just need to read history books to see that pacifism NEVER works with terrorists and dictators... i'm glad that there are people out there who do not believe the media all of the time... and yes, our forefathers came here for freedom, and right now is a time that we MUST defend it, because there are many people that want to slaughter us, so we SHOULD be united against them. in 'the dark ages' it was the catholic or protestant churches that tortured and killed people in the name of religion. how? the church controlled government, education, everything. that is how the muslim world is. i am very good friends with many muslims, and there are many good people that are muslims. at the same time, there are MORE of them that are living in poverty, and without education. terrorists use this ignorance to plant seeds of hate against US, and blame us on the system that they run with an iron fist on their countries. us people that realize this are the silent majority. we are the 'eveil people' without tolerance, and the people who are not politically correct. than again, we are the people who actually have a shot at saving what is left of this country. well, it was nice to get on and see these posts, for the most part. everyone, conservatives, liberals, and independants, have a fun, safe st. patty's day holiday. if you are in portage, stop out and see one of my bands tonight (fri) at the old kegg or sat. at the south side saloon in johnstown. rock on!

[YankeeRose]

According to the Bush admin's own intelligence, they weren't in Iraq. They are now. They're smart enough to change the world, that's undeniable.
While we're on Iraq, why do they even deserve democracy? 230 years ago, did some world superpower see our plight and take it upon themselves, at huge national expense, to free us from the bonds of tyranny? Where were the enormous batallions of French, Spanish, or other world-power soldiers? First, we had to go to Iraq because of WMD's. 3 years later the greatest military in the history of humanity found none. That's okay, those poor folks need a US-style democracy, where you're free to think however you like, unless you disagree, then you're an un-American socialist traitor. Where you're free to worship the Fundamentalist God who exercises Supreme Control through the judgement of Fundamentalists. But wait... they chose the WRONG GOD! Then, they insisted on the same tribal bullshit that has been de rigeur for millenia! If we want to stabilize something, try making the North Atlantic dead, glassy calm and stable... much easier.
Question: Does anyone here think Iraq will ever be a stable Democracy, and does anyone feel this will have a beneficial effect in the Mideast as a whole?----------->JMS

BLESS YOU, Songsmith! To add to your first few sentences, "and we went there any way".



RainWolf, as far as any one being "slaughtered", how many innocent Iraqis, not "terrorists" by any stretch of the imagination, have we killed by the bombs that we dropped on them? They were flesh and blood human beings! Many of you seem to think it's all okay, the ends (Oil and money, the ONLY reasons.) justify the means. GrimmBass is correct, we created Saddam, let him be after the first war, and at least he kept the nuts under some sort of control...now look at what we've done. Three years later and the place is even more of a mess than when we went in. After bombing it to hell, many places STILL don't have potable water. Democracy? It'll never happen...they aren't like us and never will be. I know, there are those that think my caring about all of those hundreds of thousands of PEOPLE dead (Some "hazing". ) makes me "un-American" and a "traitor"... "Oh Well"




God Bless and protect our Troops, no matter where they are serving around the world.

[Banned]

If you liberals would ever go outiside the crminal liberal media that feeds you the crap you call knowledge, you would know that we have been translating over 20,000 documents and tapes form Saddam and his regime.

One of the translators has just written a book about it.

Here is an article from the home page of Neal Boortz. He is a Libertairan Donna, not a Republican. Just like me. Ihave been trying to tell you I am a conservative Libertarian, but your excuse for a brain still can't get it.

From Neal Boortz, March 17, 2006:

"SADDAM AND AL-QAEDA

To this day, liberals like to tell us that there was no connection between Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden, and thus no reason for the Bush administration to invade Iraq. But as time goes on, there is more evidence to the contrary. More proof came yesterday of a relationship between Saddam and Al-Qaeda.

The Pentagon posted a document [pdf] online that was a letter from somebody at Saddam's intelligence agency indicating not only Al-Qaeda was cozy with Saddam, but also the Taliban. But it gets better.

The letter says Osama Bin Laden was in contact with Baghdad, and even mentions he may have visited. The documents also make mention and show a picture of our good buddy Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, leading Al-Qaeda terrorist in Baghdad.

So what does all of this prove? What some have said all along: there was an active link between Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Oh, and Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction, too. Of course, Osama Bin Laden could be captured in Iraq and Democrats still would never concede Bush was right to invade. "

But you will never hear this on ABC, CBS, NBC, or CNN. They will never tell you that anything Bush did was ever right.

Go to his web site, Boortz.com and you can read the attachments of published reports from the Pentagon and people who have translated some the these recordings and tapes.

Wait, let guess, you will still dismiss it. Your brain can't take it.

[YankeeRose]

I believe Paul is a Libertarian, but Joe, other than a Neo-con, I have no idea WHAT you are. You defend Dubya at every opportunity. One document - "a" letter no less, is hardly proof that Saddam was
"in bed" with Osama. Sorry. We've all heard how Osama HATES Saddam. I've been told that if one does a bit of research online, you can find Bush family connections with the Bin Laden family going back for generations. I'm a woman. I have a mind and opinions of my own. I won't back down. ...and those are all things a true Neo-con can't wrap their little brains around.

[jangel]

Ok its appearnt that most think we are in Iraq for oil.....wrong wrong wrong. If you would check out the situation correctly you would know that this little country next to the Med. sea named Israel is the reason we are there. If we weren't (our military presence ) there the Arab countries want nothing more than exterminate them. Push them into the sea, get them out of the Middle east. Again people think Israel's fight is with the Palistinians....The entire Arab world wants them gone. Our presence is to keep this from happening. WWIII could erupt if we stay out of there. Iraq was the logical choice to enter because of Saddam. Yes it was an excuse to invade but there was no other country there with enough reason for us to enter. The main gripe from the Arab world is we always side with Isreal, no matter if they are right or wrong. Why would a multi millionaire Saudi...want to become a terrorist and lead for a conquest of America. Oil? I could go on about the ties between the two countries but then I might sound anti Jew but I am not. Those of you that think oil is the reason are so far out of it. But you better start standing up for America
or your sorry asses are going to be without the freedoms you have and use to knock this country.

[Blain]

I'm a woman. I have a mind and opinions of my own. I won't back down. ...and those are all things a true Neo-con can't wrap their little brains around.

What exactly is a neo-con? I hear the term and I haven't yet found somebody who can give me a definition.

[f.sciarrillo]

I still think Bagdad would make a heck of a parking lot.

Yankeyrose, it is obvious that you been watching to much Dan Rather again. Time to come down to reality and see what it really happening lol ..

As for Conservative Libertarian ? LEIBERMAN !! He is the man ..

[RobTheDrummer]

If you do research online, then you are gonna get all types of shit. I can find that Saddam had ties to Bin Laden...I can find that Saddam didn't have ties to Bin Laden...I can find that Michael Moore is great and also that he is a horrible human being(which I believe). I can find all kinds of shit from both sides, none of it is 100 percent correct. It's our job as the people to strain out the BS and that's not easy. So, it all comes back to opinion, which is never 100 percent. And that's why this country is so great because people have the right to believe what they want. It's also why the country suffers because people take their beliefs way over the top....which is the problem with the terrorists. We need to come together as people and decide what is good for the country as a whole...remember, "it's not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country"- JFK (democrat, when democrats had it together!)

[Banned]

I still think Bagdad would make a heck of a parking lot.

Yankeyrose, it is obvious that you been watching to much Dan Rather again. Time to come down to reality and see what it really happening lol ..

As for Conservative Libertarian ? LEIBERMAN !! He is the man ..

Sen. Joe Leiberman would have turned out to be a better conservative president than Bush.

A question going around the Republican party is, if we knew Bush was going to turn out to be the all time record spender of our tax money, would republicans have voted for him.

[f.sciarrillo]

I still think Bagdad would make a heck of a parking lot.

Yankeyrose, it is obvious that you been watching to much Dan Rather again. Time to come down to reality and see what it really happening lol ..

As for Conservative Libertarian ? LEIBERMAN !! He is the man ..

Sen. Joe Leiberman would have turned out to be a better conservative president than Bush.

A question going around the Republican party is, if we knew Bush was going to turn out to be the all time record spender of our tax money, would republicans have voted for him.

I think if Leiberman would have ran on the independent ticket last election he would won by a landslide.

[byndrsn]

Okay - I started this, so even though I really don't want to reply to this post at this point (because some of you really infuriate me) I feel I need to.

In all honesty, the replies are not as bad as I had feared. But at the same time, I am really surprised by some peoples lack of common sense, intelligence, and knowledge of current events. I blame a lot of this on the media and the internet.

But that is not the point of this reply to this post.......

Basically, many of you have demonstrated the main point of the first post that I "copied" into this thread. WE ARE EXTREMELY DIVIDED!!! As long as we are divided - we are vulnerable. Don't you get it? How hard is this to comprehend?

How "PC" can we all get? How "PC" can this country afford to get? How long until we have more bloodshed on our own soil? When will we wake up and unite as a nation? What does the future hold for our children? OR (maybe the question should be) how long until we are defeated, and what is that going to mean to the survivors?

[Bert|Evil]

Yep. The Catholic Church felt that only it's elders were worthy of knowing how to read or do math. Serfdom wasn't allowed to read the Bible, lest they come away with their own interpretation. Science was strictly verboten... it would explain some of the wondrous things about life in a way that took some of the wind from the Pope's sails. It still goes on... Creative Design, the world is flat, it's all the same.------->JMS

At that point in time, it was "Christianity". "Catholic" was a Latin term meaning "world view".

[rain wolf]

yankee rose, there are less people being killed now then there were under saddam. people there now have a fighting chance at making something of their country, (which they didn't before) even though it will not be any easier for them than it was for us. do you know how long OUR revolutionary war lasted? thank goodness our forefathers didn't give up as fast as some people in this country want to give up on this... the people getting slaughtered right now are getting slaughtered by the same people that did if before we went there, and the people who will do it even more if we don't stay until the iraqi government can take charge. (which is getting closer all of the time) the people doing the killing are the people hoping we will give up so they can kill people that go out to something like voting. in previous wars, people understood the concept of casualties of war for the greater good. russian AND french resistance people knew that EVERY time they killed a german, in WWII, 10 innocent civilians WOULD DIE in the town square by execution!!! you probably have never heard of that! and THEY DID NOT STOP... it was worth it to them. if they had listened to someone like you, they would have told you to go join the germans. when people are fighting for a good reason, even the lives of their loved ones is worth it for making the future right. you will never know what it is to feel that desparate to have common freedoms. or maybe you will, if people like you win out, and we stop fighting terrorists, like fools. how can you not realize that we are in the right place to fight terrorism when there are terrorist attacks EVERY DAY there!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ??? people like you amaze me! have you never read ANY history???

[lonewolf]

Lonewolf...good catch, but remember.....many scientific concepts (such as the true nature of human reproduction) were outlined in Muslim religious texts, as handed to Mohamed from God (according to these texts). Many scientific concepts were indeed preserved by Muslim writings.

The Qur'an that was revealed to Mohammed has no scientific concepts. It is very similar to to Bible in that it is more of an historic work combined with a code of laws. Many of the chapters are mirrored in the Bible, including one dedicated to the Immaculate Conception.

You may be confusing this with the several Hindu manuscripts. Most of the scientific knowledge Muslims brought to Europe originated in India and the Orient. The Muslims were merely the messenger boys.

[Gallowglass]

Most of what the West knew about human reproduction (up until about 200 years ago) was first outlined by Galen (131-201AD), a Greco-Roman physician.

The Qur'an as it exists does not have much in it in the way of scientific theory (yes, I have read significant portions of it). Muslim culture has contributed to learning in the form of information gathering and transmission. The modern model of the University traces significant portions of its heritage to Muslim institutions like the madrasah (lit.-"school of public learning") that began to appear in the 11th cen. These schools' primary focus was initially religious instruction, but education was also emphasized. The Muslims of the Mid East were critically located at the crossroads between the East and West, allowing them to absorb and expand upon a varitey of knowledges pioneered by other cultures. This knowlegde was spread along the silk route. Hellenistic and Roman philosophy and rhetoric were synthesized with the mathematical concepts of Asia minor. Later on, as the Muslims gained more control in Asia (Safavids, Mughals, etc..,) even more Asian learning was incorporated.

The problem today- as I see it- is that certain, less progressive elements of the Islamic faith have "hijacked" the religion. This trend has been increasing since before the decline of the Ottoman Empire.

What good are the significant contributions of past Muslims scholars to the Muslim people of today if their modern leaders insist on a course that will lead them back to the "Dark Ages"?

[bassist_25]

Wow, there's some interesting thoughts going on in this thread. Other than my "No and no," response, I pretty much stayed out of here, because frankly, there's only a small amount of people on Rockpage whose political views I can respect. And that's not respect because I agree/disagree with them; I respect them because they are rational fucking beings. It's seems like everytime a political thread comes up, you're either a leftist extremist who's paranoid about the conservative conspiracy, or you're a neo-con nutjob who heralds Limbaugh as the second coming of Jesus and you're xenophobic about anything remotely progressive. But I digress.

There actually are some good thoughts going on in this thread. But I think one thing that is happening is that many people are thinking that the ends justifies the means. I'm not a Bush fan, and I've been critical of the war since day one; but even still, I can recognize the positive impact that a democracy could have in the Middle East (though I'm cynical when it comes to its longevity). The problem is that people are forgetting what the war was originally about: Finding WMDs. It was only after those weapons were not found that this all of a sudden became a liberation campaign. I still remember what the war was originally about, and I'm not letting the Bush apologists sway me otherwise.