Politics anyone?

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Saturday Nov 08, 2003

This has nothing to do with music, but what do you think of these idiot dems trying to get a run at the prez?

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Sunday Nov 09, 2003

I don't think they have a snowball's chance in hell of becoming president this term...

on a side note, did anyone see the article where Jessica Llynch says the government blew out of proportion her rescue and used her to make the morale of the nation higher??? WTF, people looked at her as a hero...although I must say, the people that rescued her are more of the heros, not taking anything away from her, the fact that she was even fighting for this country makes her a hero, let alone what happened...

witchhunt · Post by **witchhunt** » Sunday Nov 09, 2003

Yes this IS ROCKpage. You want www.letshavegeorgewandhisbandofpiratesr ... ryears.com

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Sunday Nov 09, 2003

Sorry that I posted a topic other than a ROCK topic, just thought it would be an interesting question. That's all.

witchhunt · Post by **witchhunt** » Sunday Nov 09, 2003

No need to apologize. I'm just backing those idiot dems in hopes that the economy gets back to normal.

Dave · Post by **Dave** » Sunday Nov 09, 2003

Democrats are not about to help get the economy back to 'normal'. Democrats are generally for larger government & higher taxes. The higher taxes allows the gov't to provide more 'programs' to 'help' us. Democrats want us to be DEPENDANT on the goverment, they want to 'take care of us'.

The economy isn't really that bad. Yes, there are a lot of people that have recently lost jobs. But that has more to do with all of our manufacturing going to foreign countries. We can thank the dems and Clinton for NAFTA.

As for the music/entertainment industry.. Well, I would think that many people in this industry would support democrats. Democrats / liberals are the reason that there is money made available for 'the arts'.

BTW: I just put on my flame proof suit..

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Sunday Nov 09, 2003

I'm left on most social issues but I'm usually somewhere in the center when it comes to fiscal issues. There's a lot of bad Democrats running, but that's the point of the primary. I like Dean, Kerry, and Gephardt. There's no doubt in my mind Lieberman would make a good president, but he seems so far right, you might as well vote Republican. I'm still trying to figure out where General Clark is coming from. He really hasn't spoken about any solid policies of his. I'm also curious about the events that surround his "retirement". I like what Rev. Sharpton has to say, but I really question if he has the ability and skills to pull any of it off. I think he should stick to grass roots politics. He also supports certain things like affirmative action, which I don't. There's something about Edwards that I just don't trust. Kucinich; what's up with that guy? He looks like an elf. He's talking about pulling out of Iraq immediatley. Well, I was never a supporter of the war in the first place, but the fact is, if we pull out now, another despot is just going to take over. I was never in favor of the war, but I'm in favor of fnishing what we started. (so long as it doesn't turn into a quagmire) Bruan might as well just pack up and drop out; nothing she says strikes me as profound.

I agree that Jessica Lynch is a hero for fighting in the war, but I don't understand how getting caputured makes her more of a hero. I guess the point is, she helped give a face to all of the soldiers who are fighting. Either way, I'm sure when she was rescued she was told by her superiors what to say, and what not to say to the media. The ironic part is, if you get captured you're a hero, but if you scare someone into giving the location of a sniper, thus saving your men's lives, you get court martialed, your pension voided, and thrown in jail for 8 years. Strange logic.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Monday Nov 10, 2003

Funny, when MY job at C-Cor Electronics went to Mexico, I didn't hear a single boardmember (all GOP, to a man) complain about NAFTA. That was all about $2.00 per hour wages down in TJ. I made a whopping $7.00 after 7 years there, so it wasn't like they were losing money on little old ME. Their stock price was $90.00 per share when they had local labor. Now, it really rallies... it was in the $2.00 range last month, and went the whole way up to $11.00 last week. Now that's good business. BTW, I sold my stock at $50.00.
I think the two-party system is fatally flawed. On one hand, the Repubs complain about "Big Government" having too much control, yet they want to control of everything from abortion to weed legalization. On the other, the Dems want the US taxpayer to financially support everybody everywhere, white guilt rules, and the US is supposed to be ashamed that we're successful.
"Voting the ticket" for either party is absurd. Both rely heavily on the middle class to pay for everything... so heavily there may one day not be a middle class anymore. The upper class has tax shelters, offshore accounts, shell companies and creative accounting a la Enron. They pay a far smaller percentage of their income than I do. The lower class, thanks to welfare, housing programs and other entitlements, not only drain the system, but pay almost no taxes. I, as a struggling middle-class taxpayer, now shoulder the burden, pretty much boned from both directions.
I'm registered Independent, and scored an even 50 on that Wall Street Journal survey, where zero is extreme right-wing and 100 is extreme left. That said, I'm thinking of joining the Greenbud Party. And no, I don't mean Green Party.

Our motto: "... Same effect as beating your head against a wall, without the ugly bruising."

This rambling, Unabomber-style dissertation was brought to you by a lack of Monday-morning coffee. ------>JMS

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Monday Nov 10, 2003

It's about personality, I remember 92, people were talking about (Bill)Clinton. I think his scandals got him elected

but for this time around. Rob and Punkinhead pretty much said it. The presidency is still a popularity contest any way you slice it and of the Dems that are running none of them have the personality to out distance ol George. Let's face it he's dim but he's ours. Now in 2008, when the seat is truly up for grabs, I think Hillary will run and I think she's got a shot cause it's the same thing but in reverse, after George, who is there for the GOP, Arnold? The Terminator can't run for president, he wasn't born here. so there ya go.

tom · Post by **tom** » Monday Nov 10, 2003

IF Hillary gets elected, I'll leave the country. I would rather live on a raft with a pack of wild dogs than have her as my president. It is NOT a woman issue; there will be a woman president in my lifetime, but I pray to God that it's not her.....

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Nov 10, 2003

songsmith wrote:Funny, when MY job at C-Cor Electronics went to Mexico, I didn't hear a single boardmember (all GOP, to a man) complain about NAFTA.

When Dick Perry was CEO of C-cor he promised that manufacturing would never move down south. When he retired and the new CEO took over, everybody knew they wouldn't have a job in a couple of years. I blame NAFTA for promoting globalization. It doesn't take a genius to realize that the reason the economy sucks is because corporations are outsourcing blue collar jobs to 3rd world countries and it doesn't take a genius to realize that supply-side economics don't work. What's a tax cut when you can pay someone 2 dollars an hour? I've always been a big supporter of smaller businesses. I'm very untrusting of corporations. Of course my major hatered could be directed to the king of globalizing, treat people as numbers, neo-capitalist institution known as Wal-mart. Any company that takes advantage of a bad economic situation, (Wal-mart got it's start by creating monopolies in poor economic areas) then pays it's employees bottom of the barrel wages, attempts to prosthelyze them into accepting it's values, controls their workers persona lives. (My favorite is that O'Ryan test they give you during your interview; A pyschological exam to make sure your a good subordinate, free of all indepdendant thought. It's the Myers-Briggs test revamped for facist purposes) The funny part is I once tried to get a job at Wally World, (I made it to my 2nd interview, where I was told I would be "contacted after they get a hold of my references" Of course, I never heard from them again) I was interviewed by about 3 or 4 different people and not one person shook my hand. I guess Wal-mart is above good business etiquette.

And again, that's not saying I'm anti-capitalism or I'm a Marxist. I'm actually very pro-Microsoft. Maybe that's partly because I've always had good luck with their products. Linux is great and everything. If I was web-hosting, I would probaly use a linux machine, but out here in the world of IT, you can't spend 60 hours configuring a modem.

Anyways, enough ranting for today.

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Monday Nov 10, 2003

I had alot of friends lose jobs paying 13-17 an hour at the Emglo plant in Johnstown because of NAFTA....Black and Decker shut the plant down to have work done in mexico for 2 an hour...I, on behalf of all the single dad's who lost jobs there, would like to thank our government for all the children going without shit this christmas because of their trade agreement...Im fed up with this shit...

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Monday Nov 10, 2003

The problem with the dems is that they only want to be in power. All they do is bash bush and say the economy is the worst since hoover and the war in iraq is another vietnam. They are lying through their teeth. The economy is making a huge comeback because of tax cuts and bush's policy is working. He got rid of one of the worst regimes in recent history, and somehow that's a bad idea. The clintons handed us terrorism and a falling economy, bush isn't doing a bad job at all. The worst thing about the presidential "hopefulls" is that they bash bush too much and don't talk about what their plan is. I've been listening to too many conservative talk shows so you can tell me to shup up any time.

And one other thing, I worked at C-cor and I loved it when I got laid off, that was the biggest dead end job in the world!!! At least i got free schooling from the clinton years lol. Vin, after george comes jeb!

grimmbass · Post by **grimmbass** » Monday Nov 10, 2003

Ah....politics....what musician can resist!

The current Gestapo, sorry, I mean Administration, enjoys doing the following:

1. Starting small wars and awarding big $$$ govt "clean up" contracts to campaign contributors. Without bids. Without checks and balances. Yep, Clinton let the Chinese sleep in the White House, but nobody died! This guy batters the hell out of a small country so that his constituents can get fat off the entrails. This stuff is no conspriacy....it's in black and white. The only weapon of mass destruction uncovered thus far has been the "death ray" cast upon our national budget. From surplus to deficit in only three years...has to be some kind of a record!

2. Pushing a moral agenda above real political issues. Prayer in schools should not be a political issue, but it sure does get the voters out. Abortion is certainly important (whether you are for or against) but should not be the deciding factor to elect a president.

3. Beginning the process of dismantling our civil rights while we're looking the other direction. Anybody here read the Patriot Act? Basically, you can be detained for an indefinite period of time for any "reasonable suspicion" of un-American activity. Bottom line: The govt can put away anyone for any reason.

4. The establishment of concentration camps. Several THOUSAND American Citizens have been held in prison since 2001 with NO FORMAL CHARGES! Same thing happened in Germany in the late 1930's and 1940's.

5. Exchanging freedom for security. I believe that Thomas Jefferson stated "a nation willing to exchange its freedom for safety deserves neither."

That's the tip of the iceberg, friends. My motto is: don't complain if you didn't vote; unfortunately, that didn't mean much for 5000+ Florida citizens whose votes were discounted at the hands of a corrupt governor. If you love this country and your freedom, get involved in this election and back the right horse. For that matter, back ANY horse, but let your voice be heard!

Re the economy: NAFTA does indeed suck, but we, the consumers bear part of the blame. Would you pay $150 for an "American-made" VCR when you could get an import for $40? How about $1500 for an "American-made" guitar as opposed to the $400 import? Yeah, people would buy less stuff if they had to go "American," and that's exactly what they did 10-30 years ago. The American people have never owned so much "stuff." Our grandparents didn't have three televisions and two cars. They bought what was made here, payed the price, and did with less. We're used to $500 computers and $40 DVD players. They paid $800 for a VCR in 1980!

We could learn from them.

I love my country.
I support the courageous men and women of our military.
I'm for helping out "the little guy."
I do not support global empiralism.

Post by **Ron** » Monday Nov 10, 2003

Gotta agree with Ken about our nation of consumers. Somewhere along the line we traded quality for quantity and convenience, and it may never come back.
Oh, and I think you are right about TJ's quote. I look at him as the greatest leader our nation ever had.

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Monday Nov 10, 2003

While I agree that Jefferson is among our most far reaching and far seeing leaders (where have they all gone) It was one of my favorites of our Founders Ben Franklin who made the liberty vs. safety remark. I am Very sure of this. I also admire Franklin because he had the good sense NOT to try to get elected to any thing if he could help it. We have the best governemeny money can buy but we can change that if we all take the time to vote, how many of us don't vote, I wonder

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Nov 10, 2003

RobTheDrummer wrote: I've been listening to too many conservative talk shows so you can tell me to shup up any time.

That's alright. I find myself watching Scarborough Country a lot. There's something about him I like. He recently bashed officials for using the Patriot Act to bust a strip club. He got a lot of respect from me for that. It's people like Bill O'Reily and Ann Coulter that I can't stand. Where do people get so much hatred from?

Maybe we should follow the system of government in Plato's Republic? Officials have to go through extensive training, be held accountable to a moral code, and most importantly, swear to a life of low income. That way, there is no monetary gains for being in office. I wonder how many people would become politicians if it was like that.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Tuesday Nov 11, 2003

Hey, wasn't aware so many folks here are former C-Cor. That means you all understand things like what the corporate atmosphere was like during the Internet bubble, how folks can tell you one thing and do another, and Jeezus, how good life is away from the Cor! Best single thing that EVER happened to me... we were like cattle... Ding! the bell rings, go to cafeteria, drink coffee, Ding! back to your seat,Ding!, time for lunch, Ding! back to seat,etc. I tell teenagers to "do whatever the f*ck you have to do to NOT WORK IN A FACTORY," it used to be worth it, but cheap overseas labor has taken any value the salt-of-the-earth local labor force might have had, and sold it for $2.00 an hour.
I agree about the Bill O'Reilly and Ann Coulter thing too. I think theyr'e nothing more than Rush Limbaugh clones, who is really just a political shock-jock, sort of a Howard Stern for the Moral Majority. They really have no concern as to reality, only how it relates to ratings, and you only have to listen to the commercials for snake-oil health supplements and get-rich-quick schemes to know who their core audience is, and how smart they are.

Political discussions can be a slippery slope... this one kinda makes me proud to be a musician, there are some very bright people here.--->JMS

RobTheDrummer · Post by **RobTheDrummer** » Tuesday Nov 11, 2003

Couple things...If we don't have security, can we really be free? and also, can we even compare today's jail system to Germany's concentration camps? I mean come on! lol

I like Johnny's Last comment too. I may disagree with other's opinions and they disagree with mine, But..I would be in a band with anyone on this forum because I Love Music!

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Tuesday Nov 11, 2003

songsmith wrote:and you only have to listen to the commercials for snake-oil health supplements and get-rich-quick schemes to know who their core audience is, and how smart they are.

Speaking of commercials; If you want to see social comentary on how sue happy people have become, just watch The Simpsons and That 70's Show one night. Just about every commercial break has an ad for a claims attorney. I love their marketing; some stern man preaching on about how indignant you should be. One of the commercials actually has a lawyer standing in front of a blue screen of falling dollar bills. Get rich quick schemes use to involve real estate informercials, Tony Robbins or Amway. Now they involve eating fast food daily, smoking tobacco, or finding a tooth in your soup. I think I'll go crash my car and then sue Chevy. Who cares if I was doing 115mph, they failed to inform me of their insuperior product proformance when operated under gross incompentance.

Sorry, I'm starting to rant.

songsmith wrote: Political discussions can be a slippery slope... this one kinda makes me proud to be a musician, there are some very bright people here.--->JMS

I agree with Rob. I don't hold people's political affliations against them. I also don't let people's political views upset me either. Creating barriers between each other over arbitrary ideologies is what we need to get rid of. It's usually not logical to begin with. Anyways, this has been a cool discussion, and I love anything that promotes people talking about issues in a civilizied manner.

To quote the bassist of a little band from Ireland: "People say you shouldn't mix music and politics, or sport and politics.......but I think
that's kinda bullshit

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Tuesday Nov 11, 2003

I'm definatly guilty on the voting subject, but the choices are usually bad and ..... bad. And who the hell even knows, you pick someone and find out they are not what they claimed to be.

Yes we are guilty ourselves on the foreign products issue. Take a look around you gig setups? Chances are there are probably quite a few foreign products there. I've stuck with carvin for alot of things since they compete pricewise with the foreign market. Fender just pisses me off, there is no way in hell there American strats should be so much. I suggest a carvin guitar anyday before I give the fender corp a dime. ( I used to love my strats till I went to buy a new one )

It is however hard to always buy American when the foreign products are so cheap, because the economys slow and we're all broke, because we all buy foreign products,because the economy slow and we're all broke, because we all buy foreign products etc, etc, etc. ( remember the anti-cocaine commercial, I do cocaine so I can work longer hours, so I can make more money, so I can do more coke, so I can work longer hours, so I can make more money........ )

I remember once I needed to replace my toilet, went to lowes $150, $200, $40. Why's this one so cheap? It's made in mexico..... of course.

Post by **Jim Price** » Tuesday Nov 11, 2003

Just look at automobiles...My last two: A Japanese Nissan, manufactured in Tennessee; and my current one, an "American" Ford Escort, assembled in Mexico. Just whose pockets are our dollars going in when we buy vehicles any more?

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Tuesday Nov 11, 2003

Actually I checked out all my stuff, I knew alot of it was american made but I asummed my digitech processor was foreign, it really suprised me to see the good ole " Made in the U.S.A " on there. So my Carvin board and speakers, my peavey pa head and monitors, my EV mikes, Peavey Mics, ovation guitar are all made in the U.S. My electric guitars are second hand bodies ( 1 charvel and 1 squire ) with mostly carvin parts (neck, pickups, tuners and misc.) so I guess they are hybrid.

As far as auto go, my wife has a Ford probe. It goes something like : Nissan engine, made by mazda for Ford motor company ? Strange isn't it?

No Limit · Post by **No Limit** » Wednesday Nov 12, 2003

I think it is amazing how our president is hated by so many terroristic leaders. How did he have time to piss off Osama Bin Laden? he took office late in the year 2001, and then the 911 tragedy took place in September. Bin Laden hates Bush now because he on a destruction hunt, but he stated before that the terror attack was carried out because of his hate for the gov't. Well, with Bush not in office long enough for any serious bills to be passed then I would say Clinton really messed up somewhere down the line. With the economy standing at the current rate, I feel as though Clinton had many of these sabotaged catastrophies planned. Democrats are all about big money, higher taxes, liberal spending, because it will return to their pockets much faster. Clinton doesn't and didn't care about the we Americans, he cared about Democrats vs. Republicans. ITS A CONSPIRACY!! ok I made my political statement, I didn't want to feel left out.

Punkinhead · Post by **Punkinhead** » Wednesday Nov 12, 2003

Osama Bin Laden's gripe with us had more to do with Clinton's bombing of Afghanistan to take the attention off of all of his scandals a few years back....around the time of his "I did not have sexual relations..." we started bombing Afghanistan...that I think is where alot of the shit came from...terrorist leaders don't like Bush now cause he has turned us from paper dragon to the other end of the spectrum....there is more, I'm sure...but thats alot of what ive heard