"The Law" topics

Post by **Ron** » Friday Oct 31, 2003

After reading Fat Vin's post on our rights as citizens, and his plea to not label him as a "cross-poster", I have decided to allow political views ( that would normally fall under the "The Law" topic ) to be posted anywhere the poster damn well pleases.
If there is anything that I would love to accomplish with Rockpage, it would be to make our collective political views known. I know... I know. Never discuss politics with friends... Well, views like that are why we are in our current state.

More food for thought.

Ron

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Friday Oct 31, 2003

" know... I know. Never discuss politics with friends... Well, views like that are why we are in our current state."

At last, a 2nd person in central PA who believes that.....

Political views don't necessarily fall under "THE LAW", especially illegal ones....

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Friday Oct 31, 2003

I agree 100%. I always thought the whole "Don't discuss politics or religion" rule was kind of BS. I love opposing views because it helps give me insight. I'm not offended by opposing views; I'm more offended when those views are backed by stupidity. I guess you could call me a liberatrian/liberal and I can sit and have a lenghty dicussion with a converservative without getting indignant or offended. (unless, of course, they are backed by stupidity *coughanncoulterbilloreillycough*) I've had my views changed many times by people giving an alternate view to the situation. I guess that's my INTJ personality kicking in. I value the most logical and sound course of action. Personally, when it comes to a debate, I like to enter with an ambivalent unbiased view. That way, I can look at the facts from all sides and then judge. I think it's easy to have a civil discussion of opposing views as long as you don't resort to personal insults or ad hominem arguements. Ron is exactly right; not talking about things is why stuff like this happens. Oh well, I guess it's just easier to be obstinate and let everything you worked for go out the window.

Because you're either with us, or you're with the PLCB

(sorry, I just couldn't resist

)

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Saturday Nov 01, 2003

Thank you Ron

This is what we need, dialog about the issues that effect us. It is VERY gratifying to me to know that I'm not a lone malcontent. Change must come, it is unacceptable to me that I have to work outside the law in order to do business here in PA. I'm not a real gangster, I don't even play one on TV, but I have to act like one as long as these antiquated laws remain on the books. If I could wave a wand and make this better I would have done so years ago but one man can only do so much.

You know the old saying get 3 ants together they can't do diddly but get 300 million, they can build a cathedral. What I would like to achieve is to be able to forge this motley band of ruffians, retrobates and ne'erdowells (and I say that with affection) into a form that make a difference not only in our lives and careers but alter the landscape for musicians to come.

I'm not talking about a union, although that wouldn't be a bad idea, unions are about salaries and benefits and that's whole different kettle of fish, what I'm talking about would be more of a lobbying group, a political action committee that would keep the PLCB and the local politicians in line.

for example, There is no excuse for not having concerts at the JAFFA or the Convention Center or at the ballpark, there is no excuse for the kind of crap that went on at the wing off, there is no excuse for the laws that vex us. Especially since we live in this great country where the rule of government is the will of the governed.

We have a huge advantage over ABATE or NORML or any of the other lobbying groups in that we all have microphones and access to media, giving us means to spread our gospel across Pennsylvania. We can hold fund raisers and promote our agenda at gigs and stir the masses to vote for people who are sympathetic to our cause even if they are only symapthetic because they want our favors. That's political power! we just have to focus it and wield it wisely.

We are small business and we have issues that demand attention!

so Thanks Ron for allowing us to talk about these things. and yes we should be respectfull of eveyone's ideas but debate is always a good thing. I've never heard of an issue so dangerous it can't be talked about.

Post by **Ron** » Sunday Nov 02, 2003

Right On Vin.

Maybe if we followed the same pattern as groups like NORML do, we might get somewhere. Those are the guys who are running up to the State Reps as they are leaving the state capital building and actually talking to them, trying to sway their opinions. I do have a bad feeling toward lobbyists, mainly because they are usually the ones who represent the bastards of our society... big oil, tobacco, MADD etc. I know it's in bad taste to put down MADD, but thier goal has changed. It isn't to end drunk driving anymore... it's to end drinking and the heathenistic rituals associated with it.

Who do you think are the main lobbyists supporting the PLCB and swaying our elected official's opinions? They are the ones we really have to stand toe to toe with.

Hehe... I'm sure that getting tossed on the pokey for a night or two would be great inspiration for some blues tunes. Especially when it's politically motivated.

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Sunday Nov 02, 2003

I think the first step would be to design a website. (after first finding a name, of course) On it, we could explain the cause, give facts, speak on law, make announcements, ect. Bands could place a banner on their websites that would link to the lobbying site.

I really like the idea of benefit gigs. One idea is we could organize an outside gig after winter. If we could get 10 - 15 bands that wanted to volunteer their time one Saturday, we could throw an all day concert. In between bands we could have speakers lecture on the issues. It could be a BYOB event where we could charge $10 per carload or something. If people were willing to volunteer to play, clean up, and give private land for the event, that just leaves paying security. (do you need a permit if this is on private land?) Even if a band has a club gig later that night, we could schedule them so they play earlier in the day.

Either way, we have to remember that this doesn't just effect us, but all of Pennsylvania. And I for one, I'm quite curious to hear how bands from other areas feel about this.

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Monday Nov 03, 2003

I love the energy of the last two posts here are my thoughts:

First: Yes, we need to set an agenda and make our positions very clear so that the public at large and other lobbying groups know what we're about. I think we need to make it clear that we are just another set of small business owners who want and need the protection of the law. If we come off as a group of rowdies who are "fighting for our right to party" nobody will take us seriuosly.

I think we need to make it clear that we're NOT about Alcohol, we play in the bars cause that's where people want live music. What we want is the Alcohol control people OUT of the entertainment business. We have no disagreement with MADD or the Anti-drug people, we're not about that, we are just musicians who want to ply our trade without undue government regulation.

We want the same legal protection as the hardware store or the corner pizza shop. We provide a valuable service to the public and we deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Music is a profession, like a being a doctor or a lawyer (well, maybe not a lawyer) but whether or not you make music for your living or you just play on the weekends a musician still deserves the full protection of the law. Artisans and crafts people of all types make a living in PA, without the ominous spectre of the PLCB "fun police", watching them like some sort of PC gestapo. Why should we suffer the tyranny of rule by an organization whose charter is designed to regulate a completely different industry, it defies common sense. We pay taxes, we vote, we are good citizens and it is about damn time that we had some representation in state government.

I think we need a name of some sort, a website wouldn't be a bad idea, as to fundraisers, well what specifically are we raising funds for? a campaign of some canidate? What? I also think that waiting until the winter is over to get moving is waiting too long (ok so it's not outdoors,) but politicians will start running for the 2004 election, like wednesday, they will need money and want support and the sooner we get organized the better but I think we are moving in the right direction.

What do you think?

oobie · Post by **oobie** » Monday Nov 03, 2003

good stuff all!!! i like the enthusiasm!!

bassist_25 · Post by **bassist_25** » Monday Nov 03, 2003

FatVin wrote:I love the energy of the last two posts here are my thoughts:

First: Yes, we need to set an agenda and make our positions very clear so that the public at large and other lobbying groups know what we're about. I think we need to make it clear that we are just another set of small business owners who want and need the protection of the law. If we come off as a group of rowdies who are "fighting for our right to party" nobody will take us seriuosly.

I think we need to make it clear that we're NOT about Alcohol, we play in the bars cause that's where people want live music. What we want is the Alcohol control people OUT of the entertainment business. We have no disagreement with MADD or the Anti-drug people, we're not about that, we are just musicians who want to ply our trade without undue government regulation.

We want the same legal protection as the hardware store or the corner pizza shop. We provide a valuable service to the public and we deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Music is a profession, like a being a doctor or a lawyer (well, maybe not a lawyer) but whether or not you make music for your living or you just play on the weekends a musician still deserves the full protection of the law. Artisans and crafts people of all types make a living in PA, without the ominous spectre of the PLCB "fun police", watching them like some sort of PC gestapo. Why should we suffer the tyranny of rule by an organization whose charter is designed to regulate a completely different industry, it defies common sense. We pay taxes, we vote, we are good citizens and it is about damn time that we had some representation in state government.

I think we need a name of some sort, a website wouldn't be a bad idea, as to fundraisers, well what specifically are we raising funds for? a campaign of some canidate? What? I also think that waiting until the winter is over to get moving is waiting too long (ok so it's not outdoors,) but politicians will start running for the 2004 election, like wednesday, they will need money and want support and the sooner we get organized the better but I think we are moving in the right direction.

What do you think?

All excellent points. The key to success is to present ourselves in a professional and savvy manner. Musicians have the stigma of being beer guzzling, coke snorting, horn dogs. We have to let politicians and the general public realize that we are just another business offering out it's services the same way an electrician, public accountant, or IT consulting firm does.

The money from fundraisers could be used for a lot of things including: campaign backing, buying radio air time, advertising, ect. I suggested the outdoor gig because I wasn't sure if a bar would want to lend it's stage to something political. Espcially considering that it deals with an organization that it must answer to.

Maybe we should organize a meeting with an open invitation. It could be similar to what the BCC did when they first started to get together. I think that we're touching on ideas/issues now that require us to go beyond cyber-space and need to be discussed in real-time.

JohnTrain · Post by **JohnTrain** » Monday Nov 03, 2003

As the next election cycle does indeed kick off Wednesday, maybe some sort of poll should be done of the current legislature. A general semi-specific gathering of their current stance on all the issues (and they, the issues need to be boiled down) that relate to independent business-folk (musicians) who work in bars, etc.
I know that if one person had one day in Hbg, they could drop off that kind of questionaire.

Post by **Ron** » Monday Nov 03, 2003

FatVin wrote:I think we need to make it clear that we're NOT about Alcohol, we play in the bars cause that's where people want live music. What we want is the Alcohol control people OUT of the entertainment business. We have no disagreement with MADD or the Anti-drug people, we're not about that, we are just musicians who want to ply our trade without undue government regulation.

I think that as long as 90% of bands play in bars, there is no way to conquer the alcohol = entertainment stigma. We can say all we want that we're not about alcohol, but in the end that is what drives the local live music industry, and little else.

Please don't get me wrong, I'm not pro-DUI or think that it's a non-crime, but as penalties go up and the definition of "drunk" constantly gets lowered, at some point those people that come see you every week are going to stop showing up, mainly out of the fear of going to jail for a ridiculously low BAC. I was fortunate enough to be 21 when the music scene in Pa. was really happening, and it will never be the same. Culprit #1 is the random checkpoint. This type of monster rarely ever stops growing. Next it will be random searches at your local tavern, courtesy of the "fun police".

The "Rave" act is still on the books and it's the scariest thing out there. It was passed by attachment to an unrelated child abduction bill (Amber alert). The act makes it easier for the federal government to prosecute innocent business owners for the drug offenses of their customers - even if they take steps to stop such activity. This is a threat to free speech and musical expression while placing at risk any hotel/motel owner, concert promoter, event organizer, nightclub owner or arena/stadium owner for the drug violations of 3rd parties - real or alleged - regardless of whether or not the promoter and/or property owner made a good-faith effort to keep their event drug-free.

Trying to distance ourselves from alcohol would be a smart thing to do, but I don't think that we can really achieve any real change without facing the monsters.

FatVin · Post by **FatVin** » Tuesday Nov 04, 2003

Ron wrote:

I think that as long as 90% of bands play in bars, there is no way to conquer the alcohol = entertainment stigma. We can say all we want that we're not about alcohol, but in the end that is what drives the local live music industry, and little else.

You're right but you're wrong. Practically speaking, I agree but when we start talking politics, we've stepped through the looking glass and perception becomes reality. WE NEED TO SAY WE'RE NOT ABOUT ALCOHOL AND KEEP SAYING IT. even though practically speaking it's not true. It's a landmine, we're gonna have to know how to sidestep, if we're gonna get anything done. We need to be careful about the independant business folk thing too, if they lump us in with exotic dancers, we're toast.

Bassist 25 wrote:

The key to success is to present ourselves in a professional and savvy manner. Musicians have the stigma of being beer guzzling, coke snorting, horn dogs. We have to let politicians and the general public realize that we are just another business offering out it's services the same way an electrician, public accountant, or IT consulting firm does.

That's the problem right there, perception. The truth is that we're not selling booze or drugs even sex. We're selling the product of our industry and imagination just like the guy who sells pottery at the flea market, or dried flowers or whatever.

To acieve this we're gonna need professional help, somebody on the inside to guide us through the process Because Ron's right

Ron wrote:

This type of monster rarely ever stops growing. Next it will be random searches at your local tavern, courtesy of the "fun police".

Stop this monster from growing is exactly what we must do. That's Why I think we should be looking for a canidate or several canidates who will be willing to take up our cause. Only someone on the inside can assist us with the perception we need to create. Make it about Rights and free expression. We need to create the perception that a live band in a bar on saturday night is as American as Mom and Apple pie and that anybody who wants to curtail that is right in there with the Taliban. In exchange for support on our issues we can offer votes, and fundraisers, and that's how things get done.

I think a sit down meeting is a good idea but it can't be just us we'll need a political operative or two to guide us in practical matters.

Bassist 25 wrote:

I suggested the outdoor gig because I wasn't sure if a bar would want to lend it's stage to something political. Espcially considering that it deals with an organization that it must answer to.

That's a good point, but on the other hand, time is critical, think about it waiting for good weather in pa? that could take til august and by then it'll be too late and if you think about it what has a bar got to lose, they are being pushed out of business just like we are. Lastly if a law enforcement organization starts harrassing a political group with no other cause than they don't like the color of our politics, that could make our case for us.

besides the PLCB and the state cops who suppliment them aren't even the issue, all they do is enforce what ever law is on the books. We're looking to change the law. If we succeed there isn't a thing they can do about it.