Purgatory - real or not ???

[f.sciarrillo]

I saw Purgatory mentioned in another thread and thought I would start a little discussion about it. One of my majors in college is Theology, so I thought this would be a good topic.

What is Purgatory ??

Purgatory
n. pl. pur•ga•to•ries

"A process of purification after the particular judgment and before entry into Heaven"

Some believe there is a purgatory, some do not believe that there is a purgatory, the Pastor of my church for example; insist that there is no purgaroty. He says that entry into heaven is a gift of god and is not something that you can get from confessions or good deeds. You have to be saved to get this gift. Me, I believe there is a purgatory. My belief if that life is purgatory ...

There are a lot of things that happen during your life time that make a judgment of you come forth. What you say, what you think, the actions you take, the deeds you commit, whether they be good or bad. If you take a path of dislike and treat people like dirt, or you take a life of crime, or drug abuse, then you have put a slash in what will happen after you die. So in essence I believe that whatever you do in life will affect the door you take when you meet with St. Peter at the alter. I could be door number one or door number two.

It might sound like a strange belief but in some ways it is correct if you think about it. For example; If you have a murderer, or a rapist, or maybe a child molester. What door you think he will go into as apposed to a person who treats people the way he/she wants to be treated, a good person who helps the community, a person who takes things in a full optimistic approach. Or even a person who try to help as many people at as he can ??

Discuss ?

What do you think ?? Do you believe it, or do you think it is just a bunch of BS ??

[SpellboundByMetal]

there is ONLY Heaven & Hell. they both are VERY real.

[AtoMikEnRtiA]

Purgatory = Asbury Park, NJ

... if you've ever been there, you know what i mean.. if you havent been there, go - and then you'll understand

[RAM Z]

Isn't Purgatory the entire state of New Jersey ? l.o.l.

I don't belive it , but I'm not say'n there isn't either! I guess I'll find out when it's my time and I'm hope'n that won't be anytime soon.

[bassist_25]

There are a lot of things that happen during your life time that make a judgment of you come forth. What you say, what you think, the actions you take, the deeds you commit, whether they be good or bad. If you take a path of dislike and treat people like dirt, or you take a life of crime, or drug abuse, then you have put a slash in what will happen after you die. So in essence I believe that whatever you do in life will affect the door you take when you meet with St. Peter at the alter. I could be door number one or door number two.

But generally speaking, access to Heaven isn't based on deeds you did during your lifetime, but rather if you accepted Christ as your savior or not. If that is the basis of Christianity, I can't imagine what the need for purgatory would be, unless it would be for those whom died too young to have an understanding of religion.

Other religions, especially those that embrace reincarnation, do speak of a sort of "waiting station" you go to before you enter your new form. For example, some pagan religions believe in a plane known as Summerland.

[f.sciarrillo]

There are a lot of things that happen during your life time that make a judgment of you come forth. What you say, what you think, the actions you take, the deeds you commit, whether they be good or bad. If you take a path of dislike and treat people like dirt, or you take a life of crime, or drug abuse, then you have put a slash in what will happen after you die. So in essence I believe that whatever you do in life will affect the door you take when you meet with St. Peter at the alter. I could be door number one or door number two.

But generally speaking, access to Heaven isn't based on deeds you did during your lifetime, but rather if you accepted Christ as your savior or not. If that is the basis of Christianity, I can't imagine what the need for purgatory would be, unless it would be for those whom died too young to have an understanding of religion.

Other religions, especially those that embrace reincarnation, do speak of a sort of "waiting station" you go to before you enter your new form. For example, some pagan religions believe in a plane known as Summerland.

Your first part is what my pastor was getting at. Your second point is what I was getting at. The way I always heard was that it is a holding place you go to repent your sins and be tortured threw temtations of your life time habits. How you act at this point will be the way it is. My thing at the beginning was that this is life.

Yes it is true by many religions that in order to get into heaven you have to be saved. That is what I meant by the gift of god, it is only given to those who are saved and believe that jesus died on the cross for us. This I believe also. I was just making a point that life is a purgatory from what you do.

What you do in life will determin where you go when you die. If you aren't saved then you will go to hell and be cast into the lake of fire instead of seeing the divine light. Your deeds will give you a bad or good slash. Yes you can be all I mentioned above and change your ways, but most people who are at that stage aren't going to listen or believe in any type of god.

I hope it's understandable ... I'm not trying to give a lesson, just trying to state what I think. Of course you are a lot smarter than me Paul, so I am sure there are things you could tell me that will make it more clear. if there is anything please let me know. I am open to more knowledge

[bassist_25]

Actually, there are probaly people who are way more knowledgable than I am on theological matters. I'm more into secular philosophy. Though, I still like philosophy that has religious overtones and/or attempts to prove/disprove the existence of God. So far, Pascal's Wager is a pretty convicing argument to me, espeically since I like to weight the outcomes of something before I do it. But I'm also an empiricist, so I like to go with stuff that I know I can experience. I'm not waiting around, hoping to die, but I am excited to see what, if anything, lies on the other side. I consider myself to be one step above an agnostic, more of a deist I guess you could say. I just have trouble believing that the universe is some self-actualizing object. I believe in luck, but not that much luck.

I'm also an existentialist, but while many existentialists are more interested in the ontological foundations of the philosophy, I usually use it to explore metaphysical themes. For example, I've concluded that objects exist because consciousness gives them context in which to exist.

[the herald]

Actually, there are probaly people who are way more knowledgable than I am on theological matters. I'm more into secular philosophy. Though, I still like philosophy that has religious overtones and/or attempts to prove/disprove the existence of God. So far, Pascal's Wager is a pretty convicing argument to me, espeically since I like to weight the outcomes of something before I do it. But I'm also an empiricist, so I like to go with stuff that I know I can experience. I'm not waiting around, hoping to die, but I am excited to see what, if anything, lies on the other side. I consider myself to be one step above an agnostic, more of a deist I guess you could say. I just have trouble believing that the universe is some self-actualizing object. I believe in luck, but not that much luck.

I'm also an existentialist, but while many existentialists are more interested in the ontological foundations of the philosophy, I usually use it to explore metaphysical themes. For example, I've concluded that objects exist because consciousness gives them context in which to exist.

ouch my brain is that sorta like 1.21 gigawatts?

[skydog]

I love your style Bassist_25, I myself always loved Francis Bacon he had some classic quotes

"A little philosophy inclineth a man's mind to atheism; but depth in philosophy bringeths men's minds about to religion"

another my favorites

"men ought to know that in the theatre of human life it is only for gods and angels to be spectators"

[Punkinhead]

I personally don't believe in purgatory. I don't believe what most religions believe though either. I don't believe in confession as a way to heaven or just accepting Christ. I think it has more to do with who and what you are. I don't believe that if you are truly a bad person that anything will save your ass from going to Hell. Likewise on the other side. I believe that a truly good person will be in Heaven, saved, confessing, or whatever other religions make you believe you have to do or not.

I think the whole idea of such a thing as do this to get this is bull. It's about who you are as an individual, the faith that you carry with you.

Although I also believe that the Catholic church has destroyed the most important documents concerning the following of Christ over time due to the fact that religion was about being a good person and believing in Christ and not about the almighty Church that they believe more in than anything.


Truthfully, the best quote I've ever encountered about religion vs. faith was:
"Religion is mind control. Faith is believing."

[SpellboundByMetal]

HELL is going to be a crowded place. Full of torment and pain. The reality will set in as you start to understand that eternity means ETERNITY. no escape and no reversals. that must be a shitty feeling. Im not taking any chances!

[Ron]

... So far, Pascal's Wager is a pretty convicing argument to me, espeically since I like to weight the outcomes of something before I do it ...

The thing about Pascal's Wager is that was written in a much simpler time when you either believed in a socially accepted "God" or you didn't. In today's world, there are over 2500 different "Gods" worshipped by organized religions. So that makes Pascal's wager a less than 1 out of 2500 chance, not the 1 out of 2 chance that most people look at when they think of Pascal's wager.

This makes me think of South Park, where only the Mormons make it into Heaven.

[bassist_25]

... So far, Pascal's Wager is a pretty convicing argument to me, espeically since I like to weight the outcomes of something before I do it ...

The thing about Pascal's Wager is that was written in a much simpler time when you either believed in a socially accepted "God" or you didn't. In today's world, there are over 2500 different "Gods" worshipped by organized religions. So that makes Pascal's wager a less than 1 out of 2500 change, not the 1 out of 2 chance that most people look at when they think of Pascal's wager.

This makes me think of South Park, where only the Mormons make it into Heaven.

Good point. Though Pascal was speaking of the Christian God when he wrote the argument. It's kind of what Spellbound was just saying. I have struggled with wondering what god/religion is the right one. It always seemed a bit unfair that somebody born into an African tribe would be condemned to a life in hell just because he/she went a whole lifetime without even being exposed to Christianity. It would stand to reason that God would have to a universe being. And by being universal, God would be universal to everybody.

[Punkinhead]

HELL is going to be a crowded place. Full of torment and pain. The reality will set in as you start to understand that eternity means ETERNITY. no escape and no reversals. that must be a shitty feeling. Im not taking any chances!

Neither am I truthfully. Although I don't believe in an organized religion, I believe very much in God and Jesus and the like....just in my way.

[YankeeRose]

My favorite quote regarding hell:



"Religious people are afraid of going to hell. Spiritual people have already been there."



I'm going to share something with you all...some of you already know about this, the majority do not.
At a very low point in my life, not caring whether I lived or died, I had a near death/out of body experience. Right before it happened, I was aware that real time had sped up, movements and even speech had sped up as if a fast forward button had been hit and I was fully aware of it. I thought, this is ODD, what's going on? The next instant everything went Black and almost immediately I was aware of the brilliant White Light...and the immense feeling of Love, Peace and Joy that I felt...
there are truly no words to properly convey it to you. I'd actually thought/spoke to the Light, "this is, you are Jesus", right before I felt myself being pulled back down into my body. I was also aware of someone just off in the distance, but I can't say for certain who it was. I fought to remain for I didn't want to leave the Light and come back!
I'm not condoning certain things in life, but as far as what one has done in their life and hell? I've not been an Angel in my life, certinly am not one now, but I can tell you there was NO "purgatory". I was instantly in the Light. I think Earth is hell, for life is full of sorrows. I haven't been the same person since...I had Faith before in something more, but now it's unwavering. I often say "the Light hasn't left me and never will"...life gets to me at times, as it does with everyone, but the feelings of Love, Peace and Joy are still with me, I'll never lose them. It is said that Jesus said, "I am the Light and the Way".
I've wondered since then if He was being literal. I realized more than ever that things have happened in my life for a reason and even though I'm still "me", I'm also different, if that makes any sense. I wasn't very afraid of dying before, for Loved ones I miss a great deal have gone on before me and I've always believed I will see them again, but I have absolutely no fear of death now. I'm in no hurry mind you, but whenever it does happen, I'll be ready. Until that time, I plan on living this Earthly life to the fullest! Within reason, mind you.

[Punkinhead]

I too have had a near death experience as a middle aged child that leads me to have a strong faith. Don't really want to go into it but, I have no doubts in God, even though I have doubts about humanity at times.

[f.sciarrillo]

I like some of the things I am reading here. Keep them coming. Some good points. Some of which I knew and some of which I don't. The pascal one I never heard of. And yankeerose, I liked your post. It was "Comforting" for some reason ..

I guess a lot of it has to be on ones own mind perspective. In most cases of what they think and feel. This can be at the time they fell it or just at any time at all without felling it. In what seems to be the case of some people is that it is mostly what ones own thought. I would like to see some more views on this. It is quite interesting. It's kinda good though, mainly for the fact that it makes you think .. I been doing a lot of that myself lately. Thinking seems to be the essence of direction now a days. Instead of going south everything is going north. Optimistic views and fullfilled thinking is making way. Man I like this ..

[songsmith]

At this point, I believe your brain stops functioning, and bacteria and other organisms decay your body, and you cease to have life. All that's left exists in the minds of those you affected. Living a good life and treating people well leaves good memories, and the inverse is also true. In any case, pain, struggle, and other negative aspects of life also cease, so it's not as bad as I make it sound.
It's a nice, neat way to wrap things up for me, and simplifies how I view many questions of theological import. It may seem too simple for some, but doesn't require as much valuable time considering it. "Why are we here?" I don't know, but I do know we're not here very long, so deal with it.
On the other hand, I plan on crying out to God as I clutch my chest. Y'know, just in case.------------->JMS

[SavageHeart]

My mom believes that you go to Purgatory if you aren't baptised. Everytime one of my sibs has a kid, it's constant harping until a baptism occurs.

I believe that some people who have done really awful things get into heaven because they have accepted Christ into their lives. Of course you should lead a good life, but if you believe in Christianity, you could live the best life ever and if you don't have Christ in your heart.....sucks to be you!!!

And it doesn't really count if you say it cause you're afraid not too or "just in case"!!! (IMO)

[YankeeRose]

I feel it doesn't matter whether someone "believes" or not..."it", "they" or He believes in them and when that person dies, they'll see.
I don't doubt that for a second!
Personally, I can't accept that a basically good person who believes in a different form of God, or the Great Spirit, will not go to what we call Heaven simply because they don't believe in Jesus, who is all about acceptance and Love - at least the Jesus I know of is! I have heard about Baptism of or by the Holy Spirit, and to me other analogies would be Grace, Faith or belief, in God, in "something".
"There are no atheists in a foxhole", is a saying that I've always liked. I haven't had many dreams of Loved ones who have passed, some not at all, but I did have a dream of my father not too long after he died. He was not the same as I'd last seen him, or even the same as before Cancer attacked him at the age of 59 - he was a young man again and behind him I could see a beautiful place, what we'd call Paradise. I'd never heard of this word for Heaven before, but from what I saw, I'd say "Summerland" fits perfectly.

[esa]

Forget Purgatory. Limbo is where it's at! And what happened to all the "unbaptized" babies in there? Where did they go when the Catholic Church finally ruled that Limbo no longer existed? Well, I'll tell you something...I'm stuck in Limbo and I ain't leaving even if you do tell me there's no such thing. So, N'yah!

[songsmith]

I think Rush Limbo represents everything wrong with American politics... wait... what were we talking about?
...And I was being facetious about "just in case." I believe what I believe, and no one need accept that if they don't want, as I won't accept a Man In The Sky who's responsible for all the good things, yet judges us on the bad things, who allows bad things to happen to his beloved because they asked too many questions about good and evil, who has power over everything yet allows evil to exist to teach us a lesson.
It's much simpler to me: Born, Live, Die, Done. Be good because it's the right thing to do, not because you'll burn for eternity otherwise, or because you'll get a throneside seat if you do. And rituals, even those that are thousands of years old, mean little to me, other than grounding in tradition, which is cool.
I may be a godless heathen, but I'm a reasonably nice guy as well. I respect your right to worship God, or Yahweh, or Allah, or Krishna, or Mickey Mouse, however, "...If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice..." and I choose not to decide. Sorry if that bothers anyone, but I reserve the right to feel strongly about my religious convictions, or lack thereof. It's pretty common among adults who grew up in Fundamentalist/Evangelical churches, where each barely literate idiot swears his version of the Gospel is, well, gospel. I stick to my version: The Book of Johnny. Thanks for listening.---------->JMS

[lonewolf]

Clint Eastwood summed it up in The Outlaw Jose Wales.

"Buzzards gotta eat, same as worms."

[f.sciarrillo]

So I guess it's safe to say that majority of you don't believe in it ?? I can see where the argument for it would be. Diff religions will have diff views on it. It is a wide known thing that purgatory is not a Protestant belief. So for someone like to to actually believe that there is somewhat of a purgatory is unorthodox. These theology classes are going to be interesting. With having that point of view and listening to a teacher who believe the Davinci Code and Darwin's theory will be quite amuzing...

[HarleyRo1]

I was pummeled with 12 years of Catholic schooling. I remember being taught about purgatory. It was taught as a 'middle' place between heaven and hell. It's where people went who were not quite ready for heaven, but not mean enough for hell. I was also taught to pray for the dead that may be in purgatory...because if enough people on earth prayed for them, their souls would be released to heaven. My daughter who is a senior in a catholic school told me that it is still taught and they are still told to pray for people in purgatory.

Personally, I think the purgatory theory is crap. It's one or the other. Perhaps at one time it was just someone's idea of a scare tactic?