Going Direct

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Thursday Sep 18, 2003

The other night at practice I decided to try something new, Shut of the amps use the cab emulator and run guitar and bass direct. As a result we seamed to control volumes and could all actually hear really well. This was only practice so.... is anyone else doing this in live situations and what do you think of it?
I guess 1 important factory would be monitors....... we will be using 400 watts with 2 - 15'' cabs and 1 - 12" cab for monitors and 1800 watts out front.
If you think about it we all know stage volumes can be a problem and that is mostly from instrument amps over powering.

Lets hear some opinions.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Thursday Sep 18, 2003

I'm betting you'd have to give each guy their own monitor mix... do you have a seperate monitor console? Too many inputs, especially when there's only one mix, can make for a muddy sound... everybody always wants "more me", and then it's a battle as to who gets to be the loudest.
I hear the band Green Eggs goes direct on all guitars and bass, using Line 6 Pods, and it sounds great, BUT, they also use in-ear monitors with seperate mixes for each guy, and a screen in front of the drummer. What an easy gig for their FOH guy (Jeff Rittenhouse, I think). Almost zero stage volume!
Additionally, many guitarists like the way a guitar speaker and tube output stage compresses the sound a little, acting slightly "mushy" compared to a full-range monitor driver. It might sound different out front than it does onstage, since you've removed the coloration that the amp's output stage/speaker/microphone combination can provide.
Personally, I have a Johnson J-Station, and I like it a lot, but then, I don't use it in a band situation, and I'd still rather have the truckload of amps it was meant to replace!
Bottom line, music was meant to evolve through experimentation, so there's no harm in trying almost anything that doesn't blow sh*t up!--------------->JMS

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Thursday Sep 18, 2003

We only used 1 mix , this was only with what we will be using for monitors. Everybody was happy with it at this point. The "more me" I believe is the problem with stage volume wich leads to feedback..... you all know the drill.. But I think having it all mixed coming out of a set of monitors seams to work. I know there are some people out there that just won't give up there beloved amp but I sold a 1/2 stack over 10 years ago because I was lugging it around but couldn't turn it up past 2 without everyone yelling......... so I figured why have it. Now with the cabinet emulators on most pre-amps I'm really thinking why bother.

I really liked going direct and I encourage everyone to give it a shot, at least in practice. I was just wondering if many groups have tried it live and how it worked.

onetooloud · Post by **onetooloud** » Thursday Sep 18, 2003

Tony buy all means work on it! There are people who do this, but the monitor mix will become even more critical. You'll most likley will want more than 1 mix, then if someone wants more me let them have it. Or better yet turn everyone else down in that mix.

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Friday Sep 19, 2003

I guess one of my concerns is will the 400 watts do for monitors? I'm sure we'll upgrade someday but we just spent more money that we have to spend on a board and mains.

onetooloud · Post by **onetooloud** » Friday Sep 19, 2003

If you can get 400 watts per channell (800 total) out of that amp you can make do with it! Use one side of it then for each monitor mix for a total of two mixes. If not you'll still be ok just control stage volume. Tony If you still need more I can probably help you out.

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Friday Sep 19, 2003

"onetooloud" you're not supposed to sell your stuff!!! If you are (and I don't think you should) Let me know what you are getting rid of I may be interested in monitor or rack gear. We just ordered a Carvin board and The 1588A speakers (900 watt internal tri-amp) I am putting together a system for smaller shows where you just can't pay someone to bring in a bunch of stuff. I'll be using the Pa I had for acoustic shows for monitors, its 210watts a side @ 4 ohms so I'll be running 1 side @ 4 and 1 side @ 8 wich will give me 360 actually. We'll be taking it out and doing a trial run here soon so I guess I'll know more after that. I'll probably run into you at Yp's soon and I'll ask you a million questions then,
Thanks

onetooloud · Post by **onetooloud** » Friday Sep 19, 2003

Tony I wasn't attempting to sell anything I was offering to lend you gear to help out.

onetooloud · Post by **onetooloud** » Friday Sep 19, 2003

Ya I know thats what I hear about selling my rental equip!! Thats all still up in the air. I will know for sure december 31st. I still have many oppurtunites for shows just telling all too hang loose.

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Sunday Sep 21, 2003

Running direct works too awsome for us, especially with how many different guitar presets we use (I believe I have about 50 in all). As long as you taylor sounds to what the PA is and make sure you have a balance between presets, you should be good to go. One good thing I like about running direct is you don't get any bleedover from a cab being miked and the sounds pretty much stay the same as far as consistancy. The only thing I don't like about it is you won't get as much sustain, or at least that's something I'm dealing with.

The way I run my setup is through a Rocktron Voodu Valve. I send the XLR signal straight to the PA and the 1/4" out into my brother's PA head. (He blew up 1 channel in my poweramp or I'd be running it a little different.) In his head, I use the monitor mix and from the poweramp out of it, that line runs into my talkbox. The main XLR monitor out goes into a channel of my poweramp that does work. Of course, the power amp takes care of a two twelve inch cab, which sets on my rack case.

If you are going to run direct, I advise splitting a signal and use a small amp as your personal monitor. The volume doesn't have to be driving, but only enough for you to hear and wash so the other guys barely hear it as well. Before Red added his acoustic kit to our show, I'd probably say we had one of the best stage volumes I've ever heard because it wasn't loud and you could actually hear yourself think. heh Keith, the other guitar player, runs 3 keyboards and his Voodu Valve into a keyboard amp and it works great for him as well. We use our monitor mix strictly for vocals and very little keys and it works out great.

I honestly prefer running a setup where there isn't that much stage volume for the simple fact is a soundguy can actually mix a band. I've mixed many bands where the stage volume was so loud that all I had coming through the mains were vocals and kick drum.

If you need any more info on anything, email or call me anytime. jsolinski@penn.com or 814-244-1870

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Sunday Sep 21, 2003

Good timing on this topic . . . I'm a week or so away from moving to a guitar setup that will be fed direct. It's a full amp head driving a cabinet, so it will look and feel like a regular setup to me. Because I'm still a total Neanderthal guitarist in so many ways.

But it will make things so much more controlled at the FOH, and that's the whole idea. No more fiddling with mic placement! No more mic stand for drunks to knock over! No more floor tom in my channel! We already did a quick try of the system at soundcheck, and it seems to be criminally simple to put it in the mix.

More feedback to follow, and maybe some opinons from Craven after he gets to mix it a few times. Any suggestions from the message board peeps are much appreciated!

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Sunday Sep 21, 2003

There have been times where our soundguy has had to mix us right from the cuff (Don't like it, but it happens) and he can have our entire mix done within the first song because of running direct. All he has to do is just get a level and a quick EQ tweak and he's good to go with us. If anyone has seen Retro active since I've been playing with them, I'm still using the same setup.....Well, with the exception of a beer getting spilled on my Rolls Midibuddy and frying it. Something I can recommend is make sure you set up all your sounds with either a or the PA system you will be using, so you can tweak it to your desire. There have been times where it sounded great coming through my referrence monitor, but then sounded like crap coming through the mains. As far as cab simulators, I'm not familiar with the quality of other companies, but I know Rocktron has a two thumbs up from me.

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Monday Sep 22, 2003

Musicians who actually WANT to lower their stage volume! How cool is that!! I thank you, your audience thanks you, and your soundman may just kiss you on the lips... well okay, nobody wants that, but you get my drift. I came from the ""wall-o'-Marshalls-set-on-ten" era, where we simply did what we thought the big boys did. They had a backline full of full-stacks, so we naturally thought they used them all...they didn't. Since then, I've learned that MOST 80's powergods used a rack into a small combo, and that in many cases, only one or two of the stacks were even turned on, and at low volume. Who'd a' thunk it.----->JMS

Craven Sound · Post by **Craven Sound** » Monday Sep 22, 2003

While a student at PSU, I was a stage hand at the BJC. I believe it was Kiss that had a bunch of speaker cabinets all over the stage, under the drum riser etc. While it looked impressive, they were flimsy hollow-backed boxes with nothing more than the speaker cone in it; no magnets or anything.

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Monday Sep 22, 2003

Was that the Psycho Circus tour, Craven? Damn, there must have been 200 cabs on each side. But after the show they just flipped the whole thing down like it was made of cardboard!

Angus Young tells a funny story about the myth that his sound comes from a Marshall stack with every knob maxed out. He jokes that people look at the wall of amps behind him and assume that the sound is coming from there, when in fact the stuff behind him is "whatever Marshall sends him for decoration" for that tour. The knobs are all maxed out for visual effect, but none of them are actually plugged in! His actual amp is a little vintage jobber under the stage in an isolation box.

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Sunday Sep 28, 2003

For those interested in running direct, here's something for those who want to crank your favorite head and get the tones from it. We have one of these in the studio and it's definitely a keeper. Check it out. http://www.techstar-services.com/userc.html

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Sunday Oct 05, 2003

Just an update on this going direct thing, we got our Pa equipment that we'll use for small and mid size venues. Its an 1800watt carvin system and we have 400watts monitor through 3 speakers.We tried it out at our now former bass player going away party at Johny Angels in Portage on the 27th. We went with the direct instruments (no amps) I ran my guitar into the board through a floor processor with a cabinet simulator and ran the bass player through the line out on his practice amp with the speaker unplugged. We sound checked with the monitors off and could have actually survived on this.It made it easy to get a good mix since there were no amps to fight with. I then put guitar, bass and vocals in the monitors for an extra presence. I think it was the most comfortable stage mix I've ever played with. All worked well and I was very relieved since I don't consider myself a soundman at all. I did have a small amount of high end hiss in the mics, I'll need to work on. I'm considering the Behringer ultra curve, it looks like that thing will take care of EQ, compression and damn near everything.

But anyway, this is a different approach to sound that I thought would solve some problems and it really seamed to make it easy for myself, a do-it-youself sound guy who had always avoided the mixer in my previous bands.

Due to circumstances we won't be getting out to the bars till about feb/march '04 but I definatly think this is the way we'll go.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Monday Oct 06, 2003

There is nothing more disgusting to me than ripping off a searing high guitar lead and HEARING IT THRU HORNS.

You don't have to go from one extreme to the other. Use your instrument amps as instrument monitors AND send the emulator feed to the PA.

Stage volume wars are caused when people can't hear themselves. Instead of a speaker stack, consider using instrument wedge monitors aimed back and upward toward the player just like a regular stage monitor (only without horns). The player will WANT TO TURN DOWN and the sound will be aimed away from the mains.

I use a pair of EV 12" guitar monitor wedges to supplement a pair of 1-12" Boogie Thieles. With EVM12Ls, they sound as good as any 1-12" cab.

Wedges are cheap and/or easy to make and guitarists will get the response they need to perform well.

Never make your discriminating guitarist puke from HORN EXPOSURE.

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Monday Oct 06, 2003

Actually I am the guitar player and it was my idea to do this, and I am much happier with this stage mix then I ever was, even paying a soundman big bucks to come in with a pile of stuff and do things.You guys can all argue but technology and ideas are hear to experiment. I'm telling you we could have gone the night with no monitor and just the mix we had behind the mains. It was better with monitors however.

Think about it, loud bass amp over here, loud guitar amp over here, vocalist trying to scream over them both, guitar player doesn't know where the bass is vica versa. or..... everything nicely mixed at a decent volume coming out the monitors.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Wednesday Oct 08, 2003

Can't you feel the disgusting response from the horns as you are playing single notes above high E? Doesn't it sound more like a saxophone than a guitar?

Its enough to make any lead guitarist puke his guts out.

I haven't found a cab emulator yet that fixes that problem, or believe me I'd be 1st in line....

I suppose it would work OK for rhythm guitar or alternative and grunge where the higher frets don't get much use. (place shoulder shrug emoticon here).

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Thursday Oct 09, 2003

Check out a Rocktron Voodu Valve. I've never had any problems with it sounding like crap. If you want, stop out a night that Retro plays and feel free to come up and check it out. The other guitarist and myself use one.

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Thursday Oct 09, 2003

Anyone up for a Kenny G tribute band since my guitar sounds like a sax?

Come on...lighten up lonewolf

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Thursday Oct 09, 2003

I have a guitar synth and can make it sound like a sax, if you want Tone.

lonewolf · Post by **lonewolf** » Wednesday Oct 22, 2003

I tried running a Roland GP100's cab emulators thru a pair of EV SX300 PA cabs last night. These items are arguably BEST IN CLASS.

When I got to the high notes on the ending solo of "Comfortably Numb", my guitar turned into a SAX and the horn-honking nearly caused me to puke my guts out.

The funny thing is, I'll probably adopt this scheme for the solo act.

facingwest · Post by **facingwest** » Sunday Nov 23, 2003

Lonewolf,

First off, thanx for coming out to see our acoustic act the other night. We had a great time. If you want, contact me and I'll have to bring my Voodu Valve out sometime and run it through your system. You'll be quite suprised with how it sounds. Ever since this thread started, I've been paying attention to what's coming out of the mains through how I run my setup and still think it's a good representation of what the sounds should be, especially with how many different presets I use in one night.