Is Rap music?

[FatVin]

Rob, I know posted this on the other thread but I think if we are going to have this discussion, let's have it and dissconect it to what happened at Classic Attitudes and just talk about it as what it is....

Here goes:

ASB10 Wrote:

To say that rappers are not musicians is ridiculous in my opinion.

The preceding is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, I disagree and here's why:

Rap, as it were, is not music...This is not to say it is not art ..It's just not that particular form or art.

Allow me to expound.....

In order for sounds to be music, these sounds must have a rhythm structure, a Melody and a Harmony Structure. Only when ALL THREE requirements are met do you have music

Metal Has Rhythm, so does Country, so does Rap, even the stuff that Big Bird sings on Sesame Street ALL Have Rhythm.

If Bob Dylan's vocals can be called melody, then we have be kinda loose with that one and give even Eminem the benefit of a doubt

Music must have a Harmony Structure, in other words, there must be a chord progession....Here is where Rap fails the test.

but

Just because rap doesn't qualify as music doesn't mean it's not Art!

It's just not that form of art. Let me clarify this one.

Some people think that if you say "Rap is not music" that the comment is racist. If you think that you are enititled to your opinion

but am I racist if I say

Rap is not sculpture, Rap is not Photography or Rap is not Ballet?

Of course not, those are different art forms and obviuosly have little to do with Rap...but what makes them different?

Tools and skills

You need a very specific set of tools to make a sculpture. The Chisel and hammers and sanding cloths that would help turn a hunk of wood into a work of art, aren't much help to a ballerina.

The skills of body movement and emotional recall that make Robert DeNiro a great Actor, aren't of much use to a guy painting a mural on a ceiling.

To make music, you need a musical instrument, be that instrument a guitar or drum or Piano, or even the human voice (Those are the tools) and you need the ability to understand and interpret Rhythm,and harmony structure (if only implied) and melody (Those are the skills and you need all 3) ...That's music

For rap, you need a device to create a beat (a sampler or a turntable, or a guy makin noisees) That's the tool part, and you need an understanding of Rhythm (and Rhythm is enough) and/or an ability to rhyme (Those are the skills) and even though there is some overlap, there is overlap on lots of different forms of art and if you think about it. that just proves my point

For the record, I'm not a fan of Rap either but just cause I don't get it don't mean it isn't art. I don't get those paintings where the guy splatters the drops of paint on the canvas in a seemingly random fashion...

But that doesn't mean it isn't art.

[Jones]

Very well put Vin!

[YankeeRose]

Quote from ASB10: After reading the many posts attacking or defending rap music, I felt like for once I wanted to add my two cents. I'm the guitar player for Third Standard and have been playing music since I was five. Since that time I have worked with artists from every genre of music, rap to rockabilly. To say rap is not music is ridiculous. To say that rappers are not musicians is ridiculous in my opinion. And also, it is worth mentioning the Hip-Hop and Rap are usually considered two different entities, each using their own style of production. I helped write the music for 2 entire rap albums about 2 years ago and I can tell you these guys know music. Beat making is called percussion... therefore all drummers out there can never say beat-engineers are not musicians unless they will look at themselves and say the same thing. Yes, the beat is cycled and slightly modified, but it is still music.
And to classify all rap/hip-hop as trash is an act of music bias and prejudice. I'll agree that I myself find little interesting in rapping about "bling" and "b*tches" but it is no different than lots of rock n roll that is just presented differently... for instance, Motley Crew's Girls, Girls, Girls... I love the Crew and don't listen to rap, but both have their meaning. Beastie Boys are rock n roll with Rap. The instrumentation of rap album sometimes dwarfs the innovation of a standard rock group. Look at Kanye West. The album, though not my particular interest, uses full orchestration, choir, rock band, etc. Beautiful sounds. Then look at what cover bands here play... Poison, Fall Out Boy, etc... these songs have little production short of helping a singer sound in key and a thousand guitar pedals to make a guitar player have individuality. Rap and hip-hop are most certainly quality types of music, just may not appeal to the masses that same. I can appreciate all the aforementioned types of music, but I choose what I actually listen to.
Music is an art. Poetry is an art. Hip-hop and rap are poetry with percussion most times, but many times, hip hop artists use real instruments like the Roots or Black Eyed Peas. And what is the most important part of a song if you want it to catch on with a crowd? THE HOOK! Rappers have the same issues as rock and jazz musicians creating hooks.
Preference is one thing. Ignorance is another. In my opinion I'm shocked by how little tolerance and understanding some people on the page have for all types of music.

Joe Scott
Third Standard






To be FAIR Vin, you should have Posted the entire Reply you responded to. Myself, I've had enough of Rap and Hip Hop "discussion".

[Banned]

Vin, based upon your definition above, what is your take on this question:

Is a drummer a musician?

You say that "you need the ability to understand and interpret Rhythm,and harmony structure (if only implied) and melody (Those are the skills and you need all 3)." How many drummers have an educated knowledge of melody and harmony, or even need it? If a drummer doesn't know the chord progression of a song, does that diminish his ability to play it?

[lonewolf]

Rap is all but dead. Billboard doesn't even use the word anymore.

Today, most references to rap are really meant for hip-hop.

Hip-hop is a form of evolved rap and contains all the necessary fundamentals to call it music. It is, however, severely limited.

To tell you the truth Vinny, some hip-hop backgrounds would make extrememly good rhythms for blues guitar. Pull out a few blues or jazz chords and voila, instant blues.

[FatVin]

Jimi Hatt Wote:

Is a drummer a musician?

There IS the old joke: what do you call a guy who carries a lot of gear and hangs out with musicians? A drummer ha ha

but a serious answer is yes. While you are correct to point out that most guys pounding the skins don't have any in depth knowledge of melody or harmony, A drum is still a musical instument, All drums can be tuned right? one can create with a drum? hit it hard it sounds one way, barely touch it it sounds another, listen to jazz drummer do a solo sometime, you'll hear dynamics and pitch and some really radical riffs, Yes Drums are music, drummers are musicans A drummer might not know what the chords are but even a barley competant drummer knows where the changes go and what to do when they get there and how not to step on the rest of the band

on the other hand

a turntable or a sample machine merley plays back things that have already been created. Even the most expensive drum machine on the market merely plays a recorded sample of a real drummerand a real drum in a studio.

all the "human beatbox" is doing is imitating the sounds that a drum makes

The most proficient "Beat maker" merely programs a machine, the best record spinner and the most talented human beatbox, merely imitate what a human with an instrument does. It's not music as I have defined it earlier...this is not to say it's without artistic merit but music...nahh.

It's a valid question, I hope I answered it to your satisfaction. At the end of the day it's all opinion, if you disagree well then come with your reasons why and let's get to arguin'

[Primates]

some rap does calssify as music in all definitions. but the "gangster" rap, if you will. doesnt. i dont see the skill of playing beats through a PC or board and having 15 guys with mics shouting "fuck the police". i dont see it. and as much as id love to say all rap sucks. it dont. some Rap artists do try and make their music stand out from the rest. they add little things here and there. and some ACTUALLY sing. as for the question "are drummers musicians" yes, im a drummer. it requires you to play a beat. or rhythm. whether its complicated or basic. now im not saying i know more about music. im 15. there are guys (and girls) on this forum that have payed for 10,15 to 20+ YEARS. longer then ive been alive. all im pointing out is that some of rap is music by all definitions, then the rest should just be classified as nothing. not music, a deformed piece of art if you will, stay sic guys! nice thread as well. later

[Banned]

Your answer is the same as mine would be - that a drummer is a musician in a collaborative sense. They combine with the other elements of a composition to form an integrated whole. Which is not to say that a drummer is purely reactive, and isn't capable of initiating the creative process. I'm sure we've all heard a beat that inspires our guitar/bass/voice/kazoo/etc. to join in, and react musically in a certain way.

Where I'm going with this isn't comparing a drummer to a drum machine or sampler, though. I'm thinking of a drummer in relation to a rapper, or MC, or whatever the "fly" term is these days.

An MC may use their voice in primarily a rhythmic fashion, but that doesn't make it any less capable of an instrument. I think one of the main problems for a conventional musician in enjoying hip-hop is adjusting to the paradigm shift. We're used to the voice filling a certain role (singing), and the melody being the primary focus. Few hip-hop records are totally devoid of melody and harmony - it's just shifted to a supporting role.

[bassist_25]

Music must have a Harmony Structure, in other words, there must be a chord progession....Here is where Rap fails the test.

Then by definition, many forms of Rock and Metal are not music. They don't have chord progressions. They're based on power chords, which technically are not chords; they're diads. They don't have 3rds delineating whether they are major or minor. The only thing a 5th determines is whether the chord is perfect, augmented, or dimishinshed.

Also, by saying anything that anything that lacks harmony is not music, you're discounting any monophonic music, for example Gregorian chants.

I also disagree about rythmn. By saying that music must have a defined rythmn, you're then discounting anything with a rubato feel.

But what makes something music or not is irrelevant in the long run. If something piques my interest, I listen to it. If it doesn't, I don't.

[Mackovyak]

Dammit, I just spent posting a comment about this shit in the Why Hip Hop Sucks thread.


eh.


My $0.02 is over there, sorry.

[Mackovyak]

Ok, I moved it. Here's what I wrote.........

Wow' this thread is still going......

"I spent 21 in Prison doing life without parole no one could steer me right but mama tried. "

I just heard that song for the first time in a long time. Does anyone want to do a rockin cover of that with me. Make Merle all Pearl Jammish!! That'd be great.

Anyway..

Hip Hop doesn't equal rap - Definately not.

I think it's in the same genre, but different classifications. Sort of like Hard Rock and Grunge......Hip Hop tends to be more 'Poppy' while rap tends to be more aggressive. Rap also tends to only float around beats and basslines rather than full arrangements. None of that is written in stone, just my point of view.

Now to dig through some quotes: (eh)

"Beat making is called percussion... therefore all drummers out there can never say beat-engineers are not musicians unless they will look at themselves and say the same thing. Yes, the beat is cycled and slightly modified, but it is still music."

ARE YOU KIDDING ME WITH THIS COMMENT???? I've been around A TON of beat makers, and yes, a number of them are Drummers, but most of them are not. #1. In any program you use (Pro-tools, Logic, Cubase, Sonar, ect, ect) these beats are quantitized and looped. There's no skill in any of that. Pick your kick sound (usually vst instrument), enter it via midi controller, and pick what part of the beat you want it laid on. Pick your Hi-hat, repeat. Mute different things in different sections to add variation during different song segments.

Now I'm a bass player and a guitarist and can play piano, but have worked in 2 of the largest studios in Miami and I can make some pretty kick ass beats, I must say. But I NO WAY compare myself a drummer.

If you haven't heard my beat work, you might want to check out

http://www.freewebs.com/justinmack/danjmmix.mp3

excuse the idiot flowing on top. It was part of the joke. Is beat making an artform??? Sort of. It's like being able to use Photoshop and being able to draw. Similiar, but not quite the same.


Vin: A lot of Hip Hop (NOT RAP) does have some harmony structure, it's with the strings and 'filler sounds' however, MOST don't really know it's filler. They've learned how to make a Triad on the keyboard. GREAT!!! So if they made the bass line go from 'G' to 'A' they have a little knowledge to make some 'Dolphiny' sounds go from 'B' to 'C'. All they have memorized is that there are 3 keys between the root and third and two keys between the third and fifth. Hardly musical knowledge.

Even a lot of the larger producers are like this. Not all of them, I'm sure, but a lot. Most I've engineered for don't even know basic song structure. You talk to them and it's clicks and hooks. For example.

Justin: Is that supposed to hit on first quarter note of the first measure of the chorus???

Random Hip Hop Producer: It'll hit on click 45, so there'll be one click and then the second click will start the hook.

That is an idea of a lot of conversations I've had. I'm not saying I'm Bassist_25 or anything (No Flame dude, You might be the smartest person i've ever been in contact with), but I really feel that if your a big time producer hired by some label for artist development, you should know your shit.

As far as lyrics, I'm not the worlds greatest songwriter, but someone stated about the same topics coming up over and over. I agree, get off your bling and blades and whips and seek something a little more outside the box.

Are they poets? I guess, no less than anyone else.
Is it music? Well, I don't know. I guess it technically is music, however it's so computer enhanced and generated that it really doesn't have to be made by musicians.....See my above comment about photoshop.

Do I like it? If I'm drunk enough and there's hot girls dancing, I can tolerate it. Not really my cup of tea though. I rather see a good rock and roll band.

I don't want to open the can of worms about them performing, and I don't want to get into whoever was calling who a racist. That's just fucking stupid. There are just as many racist black people in this world as there are racist white people and the whole race card has gotten old long ago. There are just as many poor white trash families crammed into trailer parks of the deep south as there are minority families in the hood. It's part of life. Not every white person hates blacks and not every black person hates white people Get off it.....


Wow, I've been typing for like 15 minutes and don't think I really contributed anything to this conversation other than 'HIP HOP PRODUCERS DONT HAVE TO BE MUSICIANS' and 'BEAT MAKERS SURELY DONT HAVE TO BE DRUMMERS"

So who wants to take me up on this Merle Haggard online cover song!

Justin

[Punkinhead]

Honestly, to be the ultimate pessimist here, I think it doesn't really matter. It's one of those things where if you don't like it, don't listen to it. I don't and I don't. I have fought about this before and in the end, nothing gets accomplished (much like a political discussion)...but, it is somewhat still America and somewhat still free so I guess if you hate it, you can say your opinion proudly till the FBI knocks on your door and tazers your ass for exercising your right to free speech...instead of doing something worthwhile.

[Bit*chenWomen1029]

OMFG!!!!

GIVE IT A DAMN REST ALREADY!!! IF YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT LISTEN TO IT AND DROP THIS STUPID DISCUSSION ALREADY!!!

who cares if it IS or ISN"T !!!! you have your opinion and other have theirs!!!!! DROP IT ALREADY!!!! DANG!!!

[Banned]

Is someone twisting your arm making you read these posts??

[Bit*chenWomen1029]

No undercoverjoe, no one is forcing me to read the posts, but when a post is turned into another post for people to fight on again it is just ridiculous!!!

From one post to the next... its just more fighting over the same thing... is it music or not?! Same thing that was on the other post!!

Do you get it or not?

[BDR]

Is someone twisting your arm making you read these posts??

LOL ... BURN ...

(watched "That 70s Show" earlier ... )

r:>)

[Punkinhead]

OMFG!!!!

GIVE IT A DAMN REST ALREADY!!! IF YOU DONT LIKE IT DONT LISTEN TO IT AND DROP THIS STUPID DISCUSSION ALREADY!!!

who cares if it IS or ISN"T !!!! you have your opinion and other have theirs!!!!! DROP IT ALREADY!!!! DANG!!!

I agree with undercoverjoe on this one. Is it not hypocritical to tell us to shut up when we talk about something you don't like in the same post as saying if you don't like it, don't listen. Cause the natural response is:

If you don't like it, don't read it.



Note* - Don't take this post too seriously, it's all in good fun.

[Bit*chenWomen1029]

punkinhead--- good point!

[ZappasXWife]

And its not 'fighting' its discussing, maybe even arguing. Thats OK, thats what intelligent people love to do (esp. if they are Aquarians or Libras, ha). Now some of the other threads...that was fighting.

[Bit*chenWomen1029]

your right ,i sat and read through the posts on here again and this is more of a discussion then FIGHTING!! i have seen that there was alot of fighting in some of the other posts. i re read the posts on here and i dont know if i was having a "BITCHY " day or what!!! lol i guess i was having a "jump to conclusions" kinda day!!!!

My Mistake........