PRS Beats Gibson on 9/12/05

[bassist4life2004]

I was reading through PRS's website that PRS beat out Gibson in the court case where Gibson was accusing PRS of ripping off the Les Paul. A higher court turned over the lower courts decision and PRS has now resumed production of the PRS Singlecut. Gibson made the claim that "Someone in a smokefilled auiditorium/music hall wouldnt be able to distinguish the 2 guitars" and the appealate court overturned the decision by saying "Only a 'complete idiot' wouldnt be able to tell the difference at point of sale"

I could see why Gibson would be pissed because when i first saw the singlecut for the first time (watching the With Arms Wide Open video from Creed) I thought it was a Gibson Les Paul that tremonti was playing, and came to find out it was a PRS Tremonti Singlecut.

But at the same time, i love PRS Singlecut guitars, especially the Tremonti one, so im glad they are allowed to start producing them again...Any thoughts on this subject??

[bassist_25]

That's funny because Gibson makes a double-cutaway Les Paul that looks a lot like a PRS.

[PhillipDaPussee]

I think it kinda sucks 'cause I had a singlecut built w/all the bells and whistles just before the lawsuit and I thought it was gonna be a very pricey collectors item. Now it's back to being just my favorite axe!!

[RobTheDrummer]

You know, this is why you guitarists are a bunch of nuts! A lot of drums look the same, but drum companies aren't bitchin about what each others looks like. Its all about the sound! I'm sure the Gibson and the PRS are both sweet instruments, guitarists and their companies are just...goofy, DRUMMERS RULE!

[ToonaRockGuy]

Rob is right on. Drummers do rule.

[HurricaneBob]

Drummer takeover of thread!
I have a new quote now, Thanks Rob!
Ive beat on some guitars, there shells dont last.

Didnt Gibson go after Ibanez over a flying v model years ago?

[f.sciarrillo]

Well, if you look at a PRS single cutaway. You will notice it is made of same material that a les paul is made of also. I both the Single Cutaway and Les Paul. If it came down to it though, I would rather have a PRS custom 24 ..

I remember the carvin ultra v. That was a cool guitar .. There are a lot of companies that make the same guitars. heck, fender could probably sue them all for stealing their design. I think every company out there has copied it. And what about Jackson and ESP ?? The Kirk Hammett single cutaway guitar ?? or the Dave Mustaine king v ?? or explorer copy that James Hetfield uses ?? How The ESP Kamikazi George Lynch Model - Copy of the J-Frog guitar.

Speaking of J-Frog guitars. You should check those out. Some of them are so cool looking .. http://www.edromanguitars.com/guitar/home_jfr.htm ... These are the guitars that George Lynch played before he started to endorse ESP. In fact his ESP Signature guitars are copies of the J-Frogs he used. Others like Richie Sambora and Reb Beach have used them as well. There are others that used them as wall. Check them out .

[Geetarzz]

Gibson did sue Ibanez over a flying V, a Les Paul copy, and the explorer model as well. But, they were being sued because these were exact copys of the guitars that they were being sued over. Basically Ibanez was putting out an almost identical product, even down to the same materials being used, for a whole lot less than you would of had to shell out for a real Gibson. Alot of people believed, and still do believe that the "lawsuit Ibanez's" were a better guitar than the real thing. The japanese put out some very nice "lawsuit" guitars. If your ever looking for a Les Paul and don't want to pay the Les Paul price, check out some guitars by Tokai, Burny, or Greco. But make sure that you get the japanese model, and not the substandard korean models. PRS sued a company called Everest for making a singlecut model. They look exact. Birds and all.

[RobTheDrummer]

You know, I don't think Gibson cares about the cheaper lines because they sell for less. They don't want the competition from the other "big" name expensive guitars. Cuz those people can only afford one, not like thier getting a cheaper brand and then eventually getting the Gibson. They are getting the PRS and saying fuck the Gibson.....AND DRUMMERS RULE!

[redawg]

There are probably 100 different companies that make single cut guitars. Alot of those look exactly like a Les Paul. Gibson needs to get over it or even welcome a little competition. I'm glad PRS beat out Gibson. Step up your game Gibson.

[RAM Z]

I have a (Japenese) Jay Turser single cutaway that looks just like a Les Pual. I bought it at Wray's in Lemoyne for close to 700 bucks and it is as good /cool as any Les Pual I think. The bad part was a went there to buy an amp a few months later and they had one on the counter as a display and it had a tag on it that said "NOT FOR SALE! Discontinued!" So I asked the guy at the counter why and he said it looked and sounded to much like a PRS, go figure. They changed some stuff around then reissued them again but, I think they still look the same except for the original ones were tobacco sunburst. I still haven't seen another one like mine.

Check out "jayturser.com" to see some of their guitars and basses.
I have the JT200 Serpent. Click the larger photo link and look at the inlay work very sweet . I've gotten alot of compliments on it by friends who know alot more than I do about quality guitars!

[lonewolf]

That's funny because Gibson makes a double-cutaway Les Paul that looks a lot like a PRS.

Yep, I just bought one. Kick ass 7 pounder with AAA flame transparent black maple top. Matches my beard...black and gray streaks.

Gibson was making one form or another of double cutaway Les Pauls since before Paul Smith was born.

I have to go with the courts on this one. They are far from identical guitars...nothing like Ibanez's blatant ripoffs of the '58 Flying V and Explorer in the 70s. When was the last time you saw birds on a Gibson fretboard?

PRS has helped the price of quality guitars to skyrocket as, to a lesser extent, Jackson helped to do in the '80s. I am amused to find $30,000 asking prices for a Dragon 2000 or a $3000+ list price on a Les Paul Standard.

When listening to music, I can usually pick out a Les Paul, Strat, Flying V, etc. by the distinct sound they make. Although they are great guitars, PRS doesn't seem to have any distinguishable attributes that make them sound unique, except maybe they shimmer a little when catching feedback.

[bassist_25]

Gibson did sue Ibanez over a flying V, a Les Paul copy, and the explorer model as well. But, they were being sued because these were exact copys of the guitars that they were being sued over. Basically Ibanez was putting out an almost identical product, even down to the same materials being used, for a whole lot less than you would of had to shell out for a real Gibson. Alot of people believed, and still do believe that the "lawsuit Ibanez's" were a better guitar than the real thing. The japanese put out some very nice "lawsuit" guitars. If your ever looking for a Les Paul and don't want to pay the Les Paul price, check out some guitars by Tokai, Burny, or Greco. But make sure that you get the japanese model, and not the substandard korean models. PRS sued a company called Everest for making a singlecut model. They look exact. Birds and all.

Rickenbacker also sued Ibanez for producing a copy of the 4001 that some say was almost as good as the original design. From what I can remember, they looked almost the same, except the white plate across the headstock was blank instead of having the "Rickenbacker" name.

There are probably 100 different companies that make single cut guitars. Alot of those look exactly like a Les Paul. Gibson needs to get over it or even welcome a little competition. I'm glad PRS beat out Gibson. Step up your game Gibson.

Maybe this will force them to lower their prices a bit. I'm sorry, but if I'm paying over $1500 for a guitar or bass, it better be custom, not just another instrument shitted out on a production line. Or least it should be a basic model with custom options ala: Carvin.

When listening to music, I can usually pick out a Les Paul, Strat, Flying V, etc. by the distinct sound they make. Although they are great guitars, PRS doesn't seem to have any distinguishable attributes that make them sound unique, except maybe they shimmer a little when catching feedback.

I think that PRS guitars have a more compressed tone to them where Gibsons are more open and dynamic. I've never played a real PRS, but I did once play a Dillion copy at Robert M. Sides and I was impressed with the copy, very rich tone and easy to play.

I generally can pick out individual Fenders. Tele's have a more mellow tone and Strats can be picked out easily if the pickups are out of phase. I can usually tell a Gibson on a record but I can't distinquish between a Les Paul and SG just by listening. Basses are a lot harder to pick out. I can usually tell a real Jazz Bass when I hear it and can usually pick out Rickenbackers, Warwicks and sometimes Alembics.

[bassist4life2004]

I think that the PRS Singlecut has a much more distinguishable tone than a Gibson LP. PRS also makes better pickups than the ones that Gibson puts in the LP. When you listen to guys like Santana and Tremonti, you can hear a massive difference in their guitars than you could a Gibson double cut (compare to Santana) or the Gibson Les Paul (compared to tremonti's). PRS's are tone monsters, and played through good amps, i believe that PRS's would out-shine the gibsons.

And also, us guitarists arent crazy rob, ur the crazy asshole that beats on wooden tubs with sticks

[lonewolf]

Yes, compressed, that's the word I was looking for. That PRS compressed tone is not very unique...many guitars accomplish this feat for a few hundred dollars, but I doubt they play as nice.

When I listen to modern Santana, I hear so much over the top Mesa/Boogie that I can't tell what his guitar is supposed to sound like. That's why I said PRS "shimmer" when catching feedback--that is the most memorable thing, whether its live or studio. Carlos used to use a lot of dynamics in his solos. I don't think his present rig will do that sort of thing the way he has it set.

About the only thing Tremonti has given us to listen to is some power chords with a dropped D (that I'm aware of--link me if i'm mistaken). For that, the PRS sounds like it has a rounder bottom (insert joke here) than a Les Paul, but then, that's not very unique either. That is exactly what I mean, Gibsons have a full, sharp bottom that you can identify. The PRS sounds like any number of guitars I have heard, only they do it much better. Its the absolute best generic sounding guitar ever made.

Yep, unless they are 50 years old, Gibson pickups generally suck and so do Fender's. After picking up this 2004 LPDC for under a grand, my 1st reaction was that I wanted to get a pair of Duncan Pearly Gates, but I'm still using the originals for now. I haven't used modern Gibson pups, so I thought its time to at least give them a try. I don't want to tear this guitar apart until I'm sure to keep it.

[FatVin]

When I went to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame I got a good look at the guitars that the old blues guys recorded the classics with and most of them are Sears-brand P'sOS.

All the top o the line gear the world can't save you if you Suck, that's true even for you damn drummers

Yes a Les Paul Gold Top or a Top o the Line PRS with Dragon Inlay will look cooler on stage than it;'s B brand counterpart but it don't make much difference to a guy that can't play

Brand names and model years are for collectors but for a working musican

Buy the Epiphone and stick good pickups in it and you'll still save $400 and have a better Axe than if you spent the $1200 on the LP

If you pick up a guitar in a music store and sings to you (Guitarists know what I mean) and you can afford it, buy it. If it needs beeter pick ups or distortian pickups or whatever go for it, the modifications make all the more yours

[lonewolf]

Yes Vinny, but what if you don't suck? A brand name guitar is much better to have than a B guitar. You and I both know that even some top knotch types of guitars are better suited for some players than others. Some players do better with a slightly broken in guitar, some others wouldn't think of playing on anything but their old faithful with teeth marks and other assorted niceties.

Those Silvertones (made by Harmony for Sears) weren't all that bad. What would make a struggling guitarist really feel the blues more than not being able to afford a good guitar because of the treatment they got back in their day. Hell, that's what defined the blues. All that talent, and they weren't paid any better than the floorsweeper, just cos they were black. Their talent was eventually rewarded and most of them ended up getting better guitars, and they sounded the better for it. The same for today...if somebody is truly talented and more importantly dedicated, they will get the good guitar they want and sound all the better for it.

BTW, ain't no Epiphone V gonna sound like my V90 Double!

[Ronnyd]

It's not The magic it's the Magician.Anything you say about a mans penis you can say about a Guitar.
If you can play, got style and soul ,the tone comes from you .Plug in to a clean Amp if you sound good ,you can play .If you need effects and b-sh-- forget it.The same goes for drummers, that cat from Blind Johnny Death plays a snare but you won't miss any-thing.Bobbie w. Kicks Butt on everything,Mark middleton could play a walmart special and smoke.
But after I say all this Guitars are just like Women .They all feel different and it's fun to try some strange now and then.(DISCLAIMER The opinions expressed by me are merly that.I could be wrong!

[FatVin]

As usual Wolf, you read the words but utterly miss the point.

A Great Guitar Will NOT make a Bad Player Better, or a good player great or even a great player greater the only thing that will do that is practice.

Might make him look cooler, feel cooler, but the quality of the instrument has no bearing on talent or ability or craft, None at all.

This is epecially true when we are talking about Epi or Squier or the other really top quality B brands out there, the differential in quality is Very small between A and B brands IMO. Is a 2005 Gibson Les Paul better crafted than it's Epi counter part, yeah but only slightly so. certainly not so much as to justify the difference in cost between the two.

LoneWolf Wrote:

BTW, ain't no Epiphone V gonna sound like my V90 Double!

A little TLC and It'll sound better!!!

Your V lists for about $1,500 right? it's Epiphone Counterpart about half that

Gibson owns Epiphone so same wood, Same Paint, Same Korean Children puttin them together

The difference between the two comes down to Pickups, and tuning machines and decals

Pickups and tuning machines can be installed post purchase for a song but let's do the math

$750 for the Epiphone V
$150 for decent but better than stock Pick ups
$75 for decent but better than stock tuning machines
Total - $975 for a guitar that is as good or better than the $1500 model

Why Pay $525 for a decal?

You wanna call yourself a collector that's one thing and that's cool, guitars are as collectable as anything. Then it's not as much a musical instrument as it is an investment. Then and ONLY then are brand names important.

Give a "A" Player a "B" guitar and you still get "A" music, Give a B Player an A guitar and you still get B music, it's that simple.

IMO A player should choose a guitar based on The sound? Does this guitar sound good, is it the sound I'm looking for? then you should consider things like weight and color (Do I really want to be seen on stage with a Pink Paisley Tele?) and finally price.

The whole Idea, This brand is good and that brand isn't, is so high school. It's a pissing contest is what it is, "I've got a Gibson and you don't cause you're on da-wellllfare, you're on da wellfare" It's horseshit.

As long as it's above a certain level of quality, and Most Epi's and Squiers are good enough to play out with, Brand name should be the last thing you should be thinking about, at least as a musician.

Now you wanna call yourself a collector, that's horse of a different color, altogether and we haven't even gotten to Vintage yet but I think we probably agree about Vintage Vs. state of the art anyway.

[lonewolf]

As usual Wolf, you read the words but utterly miss the point.

A Great Guitar Will NOT make a Bad Player Better, or a good player great or even a great player greater the only thing that will do that is practice.

Might make him look cooler, feel cooler, but the quality of the instrument has no bearing on talent or ability or craft, None at all.

No, I understand that perfectly well. Its just that I really don't give a Flying F (pun intended) about the effect of a great guitar on a bad player, unless, of course, I have to listen to it.

I can't speak for the others, but I was engaged in a conversation about the uniqueness of sound that some guitar models have...that they are easily identifiable by listening...and that some others lack this uniqueness. That doesn't mean to say these others are bad guitars or that they don't sound great...it just means they aren't easily identifiable.

BTW, I only have about $750 in my V90, including unique custom ordered pickups. The only V that can play like a V90 is another V90...its the only V model with 24 frets. It is physically impossible for an Epi, or any other V to hit all the same notes as a V90. I use those extra notes a lot...it is essential to my style of playing. I can play without them, but I refuse to play without them.

[redawg]

Some ESP guitars look more like a Gibson Les Paul than the PRS Singlecut. Look at the new James Hetfield signature ESP.

[JeffLeeper]

Speaking for those of us who call buying new strings "a purchase"...this question is moot.

[bassist_25]

Cheap Instruments vs. Expensive Instruments: I don't know. It's all a matter of taste. I've often said that an inexperienced player is going to have more trouble on a high end instrument just because high end equipment is generally more responsive than low end equipment. I'm a technique fanantic to the 10th degree, and have always been a believer in the maxim that the majority you one's sound is in one's hands. A cheap instrument is going to cover up bad technique, but an expensive instrument is only going to magnify it. Rickenbacker basses are a great example. They're very unforgiving instruments. If you don't have your technique in order, they're going to let you know. High end equipment makes actualizing the sounds much easier. How much would one spend though is the ultimate question. As I said ealier, I could never see myself spending more than fifteen hundred dollars on a production line instrument. Some guys go out and pay six grand on instruments that have a year+ waiting list to make. If that's what they want to do, that's cool. Whatever - It's good for the economy. Will it make them play better? No, it won't.

[songsmith]

I have a late 70's Peavey T-15 I paid $80 for at Hazy's, and I absolutely love it. I use it at every rock gig. It's a case of an cheap guitar making a sucky player basically the same level of suckitude, but at least I can afford a chocolate milk on the way home from the gig. Wait... what were we talking about?
Seriously, this could turn into a "my axe could lick your axe" discussion, and that's sort of pointless. I agree with RonnyD, it's like women... the ugly ones can really be extra sweet and give you everything you need every time. The pretty ones can, too, they just cost more, and need more maintenance to stay pretty... but, bottom line, none of 'em stay pretty forever. The more they get used, the uglier they get. It ain't about looks for me, the older ones feel just the same sitting on your lap, or cradled in your arms. The older ones are more stable. Trace your fingers down the back of the head, down the neck, across the shoulders to the waist, pay close attention to the tailpiece...
Okay, end of woman/guitar analogy. I'm getting kind of a semi.------->JMS

[bassist_25]

I'm getting kind of a semi.------->JMS

I didn't realize that there was an objective measurement of what a semi is and what one isn't. Generally, I feel that once arousal has happened in the genital region, then it can be described as a semi.

Just my opinion though.