Views on Christianity

[JeffLeeper]

I don't lump all the death metal guys together....and I'm not prejudiced against them. As a matter of fact , I've found most of them to be pretty good folks. Why is it that people are prejudiced against me just because I belong to a church ?

There are many organised religions , and the church I belong to helps out more than just my community. Not only that , but the people going there are the absolute best people I've been privileged to know....not unlike the rockpagers I've met.

...so don't lump religions all together....

To do so is prejudiced and close-minded.

[songsmith]

I'm not prejudiced against you. Well, not for that anyway. I've often said I don't begrudge anyone their beliefs in a higher power... I have problems with the institution, not it's members per se.
I actually DO believe in Jesus Christ, oddly enough. I believe in the historical version, a political driving force and preacher who shook up the Jews and spurred the change of the Roman Empire. BTW, read the New Testament, and every time it refers to evil or Satan, substitute "Rome" and "Caesar." It's amazing how much sense it makes... far less "mythological," for lack of a more accurate term.
As for faith, if you're talking about Faith the barmaid, yes, I wish I had Faith. Just once or twice. ---------->JMS

[JeffLeeper]

Faith the barmaid

How do I argue with that ?

[Bert|Evil]

BTW, read the New Testament, and every time it refers to evil or Satan, substitute "Rome" and "Caesar." It's amazing how much sense it makes... far less "mythological," for lack of a more accurate term.

Right on... that's the basis for the entire book of Revelations! Did you know that 666 is actually an ancient calculation of "Nero", not "Devil" or "Satan" as so many people choose to believe.

[BDR]

IMO, "religion" is more of an enterprise than anything else. In any organized sect, there are usually one or two people who call the shots, er...um...I mean "interpret the Bible" (give me a break) and those same few people are the ones driving the Escalades.

... believe in something but don't EVER let someone else, no matter who they are or think they are, tell you how to think or live. Make your own decisions using common sense and the rest falls into place.

If there is a "God," I'm sure he (or she) frowns upon the multitude of "fakes" wearing his (or her) name on their sleeves.

r:>)

I'm a spiritual person, but don't get me started on the Bible beaters. I've had enough experience with fake, judgmental assholes to last me three lifetimes.

Go to church if that's your thing, and that's cool. Praise God in your mind if that's your thing, that should be cool, too. I know there are churches out there that don't require you to be there for every service to get a seat on the magic bus. The ones with all the requirements are the ones that scare me the most and make me think of the word "cult." There's plenty here in Huntingdon.

r:>)

[Bert|Evil]

BTW, read the New Testament, and every time it refers to evil or Satan, substitute "Rome" and "Caesar." It's amazing how much sense it makes... far less "mythological," for lack of a more accurate term.

Right on... that's the basis for the entire book of Revelations! Did you know that 666 is actually an ancient calculation of "Nero", not "Devil" or "Satan" as so many people choose to believe.

Here's a few links:
http://religion-cults.com/antichrist/666.htm
http://www-personal.buseco.monash.edu.a ... an/666.htm
http://www.aloha.net/~mikesch/666.htm

...and before you flaming liberals start, 666 does not stand for;
ronald
wilson
reagan

[f.sciarrillo]

About the only prob I have with religion is when you get someone who die hard, and shoves it down your throat. Not to mention, Never SHUTS UP ABOUT IT !!

Don't get me wrong, I am religious. My parents raised me good in form of things, including some other things. I believe their is a god, I believe in the after life, I believe that when we die we are judged on who we are and not what we are. I just have a problem with the Die Hards ..

Also, I agree with rob when he said about how some are hypocrites. Look at all these sex scandals amongst the catholics. It's a shame though, because, a few make the whole organization look like crap ...

[lonewolf]

If you look closely, you will find that most major religions originated with a "teacher" who was trying to explain the path to "enlightenment", including Christianity. Unfortunately for the New Testament, it was written decades A.D. and probably lost some of the original meaning. There are still several passages, if taken literally, that suggest Jesus was trying to explain how to attain enlightenment rather than worshiping him as a God. Most of the ancient people, including the scribes who wrote it down couldn't wrap their heads around it. The Dead Sea Scrolls may shed some light on this, if they ever allow their contents to be properly translated and published.

Exceptions are the sibling religions of Judaism and Islam. These are examples of religions originally founded as an "opiate of the masses". There are many that might argue that Christianity is an extension of Judaism, but this is not truly the case. Since Jesus was Jewish and brought up with Old Testament teachings, it makes sense that he would teach within that context. However, his teachings were completely different and outside the realm of Judaism--he created a whole new belief that evolved into a religion. The Old Testament is a wholly different belief system from the New Testament and the two are mutually exclusive.

[FatVin]

There is a difference between faith and religion and between religion and spirituality but some people get confused.

The trouble as I see it is a simple matter of paying close attention to motives and control. Faith in God, in whatever form, can transform individual people, communities, even nations, from the depths of depravity to stunningly civilized enlightenment. What the problem here is that the same ideas than save the souls and bring meaning and comfort to the lives of millions, even billions of people can be easily perverted into something sick and twisted. Do I have to site examples?

Islamic fundamentalism - 9/11 ad nauseum

Jonestown - several hundred people dead from poisened kool aid in Guyana on the word of a "modern day messiah"

Waco Texas, the Branch Davidians burned themselves alive.

Too depressing, too extreme? too dramatic? Okay how about this

In Utah, and other remotes parts of the American west, it's been an open secret that deviant off shoots of the Mormans are still practicing polygamy, in fact it was reported in the news a little while ago that town elders are kicking out the 14 and 15 year old boys, why excommunicate a perfectly good farm hand?, you might ask, think about it, the 14 and 15 year old boys are competing with these town elders for the attention of the now marriageable 14 and 15 year old girls and if your a 45 year old guy with 6 wives the last thing you want any of your wives, let alone some one you trying to lasso, looking at is a 15 or 16 year old male, so they find excuse to kick em out of the colony, I'm not making this up it's been going on for years

That's just here in America, sick shit like this happens all the time all over the world and all in the name of God.

It's not the ideas or Ideals of Abraham, or Jesus or Muhammad or Budha or Kung Fu'tse (Confucious) or Lao-tse that make me want to wretch

it's the people who sieze control of these ideas and use them for fun and profit that I object to

These guys in Utah I wrote about, who have taken control of their little town so only the faithful are allowed in, they defend their religiuos authority by the way with the point of a gun

People like The Islamic Mullahs telling 14 year old boys that strapping TNT to themselves to further the Mullah's political ends will get them into paradise.

Cults who commit Mass suicide at the appearrance of comets.

TV evangelists who swear that if you send them money you can not only get into heaven but it'll be tax deductable too, and then they get caught using the money for motels for private 'retreats' with church secretaries.

Those are only a few examples the compleat list would take years to type. The problem isn't this religion or that religion or even religion or church as a concept the problem is somebody has to be in charge and when that happens you get abuse, it's human nature.

This isn't to say that your local Pastor, Priest, Rabbi, or even Imam is a bad guy, most likley he's not, but IMO he's shilling for a system that is rife with abuses and has a lot to answer for.

it's the organization itself that's the problem, somebody has to be in charge and somebody needs money and that leads to power struggles and conflict, it is unavoidable.

It's not God, or Jesus, or Allah or the Koran or the Bible or any of that that is the cause of the planets major problems it's the concept that somebody has to be in charge and it has been (pardon the pun) bedeviling good people of faith since people began organizing into relgious sects

As for me, I believe in God, but I have little use for churches or the organized power structure, I try to remain spiritual on a daily basis, rather than religious

Somebody once asked what was the difference between spirituality and religion, I said "about 20% of your income."

[Bert|Evil]

In Utah, and other remotes parts of the American west, it's been an open secret that deviant off shoots of the Mormans are still practicing polygamy, in fact it was reported in the news a little while ago that town elders are kicking out the 14 and 15 year old boys, why excommunicate a perfectly good farm hand?, you might ask, think about it, the 14 and 15 year old boys are competing with these town elders for the attention of the now marriageable 14 and 15 year old girls and if your a 45 year old guy with 6 wives the last thing you want any of your wives, let alone some one you trying to lasso, looking at is a 15 or 16 year old male, so they find excuse to kick em out of the colony, I'm not making this up it's been going on for years

Oh, I believe you. You'll remember that in the Elizabeth Smart situation, the media was forced to tread lightly due to the things that they might stuble upon.

... and you're right, stuff like this is going on all over the place, and their stories are kept under wraps. Look into the Society of the Dark Lily.

[Griff]

there are so many ways to worship and so many teachings it is hard for one to follow. so I really beleve in two bible verses that have a strong impact on me, one that makes the point of the false teachers will be punished and the people that learned from the false teachings will be forgiven. another is when the jews were constructing a temple for God to get into heaven and the temple was distroyed and God said to them. "neither jew or gentile you do not need a temple to worship me I am here I am everywhere" those are two of many quotes that make a person or at least me wonder about some of the ways differant religions teach. some religions want nice carpet and fancy gold all around for an alter, well the bible does read that an alter can be constructed from the comman natural wood, my opinion is that is as simple as a tree stump." I guess that is a nice natural thing if your taking a walk in a quiet woods doing some soul seaching" everyone has there own beliefs and that dose'nt make them bad I have many friends with differant thoughts and beliefs than I do, but I dont push my beliefs on them and they dont do it to me they are my friends for the quallity of person they are and that is what I look for I am not the judge. one more thing, it is nice to know that God himself will forgive a person for being mislead

[bassist_25]

I find it VERY VERY funny that there are athiests out there that are writting books and trying to convert others into their non-beliefs. I think that is hysterical because if I truly believe that this is all there is, then I'll be damned if I am going to waste any of this time in this short life trying to convert someone or writting a book to tell everyone my beliefs or protesting because our money has the word "God" on it. Those people are really nuts!!!

Very true.

I also never understood why many atheists would argue that they are different from theists because they "don't have faith". Their belief is still contingent on an abscence of empirical or ontological proof, an absence which grounds a faith that something is non-existent. For one to say that he or she doesn't believe in God due to lack of evidence would make him or her an agnostic because lack of evidence doesn't disprove that such a being exist. I consider myself somewhat of skeptic, sometimes so much of skeptic that I'm even skeptical of the skeptics. I could probaly write a 600 page book in which I blast David Hume.

When the question of whether I believe in God arises, I usually just respond by saying I'm a theist and just leave it at that. Actually, I'm probaly more of a deist or a Unitarian Universalist. Either way, I'm cautious of anyone who claims to be morally superior, whether they are a bible-beating facist conservative-type or a psuedo-enlightened elitist liberal-type.

There are still several passages, if taken literally, that suggest Jesus was trying to explain how to attain enlightenment rather than worshiping him as a God.

It's also interesting to note that many scholars/theologians believe that the two unaccounted years of Jesus' life were spent studying in Asia with Buddhist monks. It wouldn't be suprising considering the interesting parallels between Jesus Christ and Siddhartha Gotama, especially the emphasis on an ascetic life.

[Bert|Evil]

Very true.

I also never understood why many atheists would argue that they are different from theists because they "don't have faith". Their belief is still contingent on an abscence of empirical or ontological proof, an absence which grounds a faith that something is non-existent. For one to say that he or she doesn't believe in God due to lack of evidence would make him or her an agnostic because lack of evidence doesn't disprove that such a being exist. I consider myself somewhat of skeptic, sometimes so much of skeptic that I'm even skeptical of the skeptics. I could probaly write a 600 page book in which I blast David Hume.

When the question of whether I believe in God arises, I usually just respond by saying I'm a theist and just leave it at that. Actually, I'm probaly more of a deist or a Unitarian Universalist. Either way, I'm cautious of anyone who claims to be morally superior, whether they are a bible-beating facist conservative-type or a psuedo-enlightened elitist liberal-type.

There’s a fine line between “atheist” and “agnostic” these days. Charles Darwin, in so many ways more than the fish on someone’s bumper, has become a “Counter Christ” of sorts. This tends to make Atheism a religion, not the counter religion that we have gotten used to.

One thing that REALLY cracks me up about the whole “conservatives are bible thumpers” smokescreen that liberals have lead in the last couple of years is that they aren’t looking at the individual religious beliefs of those politicians. Look at all of the Freemasons in Congress! To them, Jesus is no more important than you or I in the “Universal Architecture”, and occultism is welcome. Furthermore, the Bible is null and void to them. No offense to our Scottish or York Rite friends, but Freemasonry is extremely deceptive, and those of you who have studied it or have known someone who is open about it know what I’m talking about.

[bassist_25]

There’s a fine line between “atheist” and “agnostic” these days. Charles Darwin, in so many ways more than the fish on someone’s bumper, has become a “Counter Christ” of sorts. This tends to make Atheism a religion, not the counter religion that we have gotten used to.

And of course the true irony of that would be that Darwin was an agnostic, not an atheist like many people would like to paint him to be.

[songsmith]

And that Jesus, as a pacifist, and feeder of the poor, and smasher of the moneychangers' tables, would be considered a liberal.

Bassist, your views remind me of a joke I heard on Lake Wobegon...
How do you run a Unitarian Universalist out of town?
Burn a big wooden Question Mark on his lawn. ------>JMS

[bassist_25]

Bassist, your views remind me of a joke I heard on Lake Wobegon...
How do you run a Unitarian Universalist out of town?
Burn a big wooden Question Mark on his lawn. ------>JMS

LMAO. That is pretty funny.

But in all seriousness - It seems as though everyone has to either be for or against something, a believer or nonbeliever, black or white, a Strat player or a Tele player, ect. There's nothing wrong with being ambivalent on an issue.

[homerski]

I was always "The Minister's Son". That's why I latched on to playing music with a deathgrip, because it allowed me to forge my own identity.

I never missed a Sunday church service in my first 18 years, and not by choice. THe only time that I've been back to church since then was when I got married. I still refuse to go. I believe what I believe, and nobody can judge me except God.

It's almost like we are identical twins!...

It's almost like we are triplets (born at different times)..

I think this goes to show the harm that organized religion can do, especially when your parents so strongly believe in the edict of the bible verse that says something like "Train up a Child in the Way He Should Go".
In their defense, they really did believe that they were doing the best for us. It probably took me 20 years (after leaving home) to finally get my head screwed back on right.

When I told my mother that I was an agnostic (I believe that there is a higher power, but there is no way that we will ever know who or what that higher power is) she felt like she had failed. And I guess she did. Her church and teachings failed to brainwash me, like they have done to so many others.

John Homerski Jr.

[Bert|Evil]

There’s a fine line between “atheist” and “agnostic” these days. Charles Darwin, in so many ways more than the fish on someone’s bumper, has become a “Counter Christ” of sorts. This tends to make Atheism a religion, not the counter religion that we have gotten used to.

And of course the true irony of that would be that Darwin was an agnostic, not an atheist like many people would like to paint him to be.

... and that's a great observation!

[Bert|Evil]

And that Jesus, as a pacifist, and feeder of the poor, and smasher of the moneychangers' tables, would be considered a liberal.

Yes, Jesus the miracle worker. Since all liberal causes are otherwise impossible and far-fetched, you would need the Son of God.


This just… you CAN polish a turn. Film at 11!

[songsmith]

Um, megaditto's, Rush. Just kidding. Politics and religion in the same thread... add some booze and it'd be WW III. -------->JMS

[Bert|Evil]

Um, megaditto's, Rush. Just kidding. Politics and religion in the same thread... add some booze and it'd be WW III. -------->JMS

Blee'dat, Alan (Colmes)!

[grimmbass]

Great to see so much deep thought in this thread! Just a couple of quick thoughts:

1. Saw "What the Bleep Do We Know?" this weekend....a sort of documentary about religion in quantum physics. It's really wild how science is bringing many of its stewards back to religion. Basically, if you dig deep enough on the molecular level, you'll find a place where "the rules" no longer apply. Particles disappear and reappear as if on their own volition...where do they go? No-one seems to know.....

2. Ironically, sometimes it doesn't seem to matter what we believe in, but what believes in US! Their are documented studies that cancer patients that had groups praying for them did better in treatment. Could it be psychology or coincidence? Absolutely!

3. I wish I could remember the author, but someone once said that it takes more faith to be an Atheist than a believer, because of the sheer beauty of the world around us....I mean ABSOLUTELY no respect to our Atheist friends out there...but it is definitely a stance that one does not take lightly. I think it's probably easier to be a Christian than an Atheist for a number of reasons.

4. Early on, someone questioned my association between Conservatives and Literal Interpretation of the Bible. Again, I meant no offense, but we do see a lot of Evangelical types of believers among the ranks of the GOP, the President included. Moral issues (abortion, prayer in schools, violence in entertainment) are substantial points of debate on Capital Hill. I'm absolutely intrigued by the Conservative Atheist perspective...thanks for challenging my stereotype! BTW, do any Atheists have a problem with the phrase "Under God" in the Pledge of Allegience?

5. I was really still curious if any of you feel conflict between what you do in your "real" life as opposed to what your faith dictates. For example, are any Christians out there torn about whether or not to listen to Slayer, Iron Maiden, or other bands who use Satanic imagery?

Keep the conversation coming, friends!

Kent

[red]

5. I was really still curious if any of you feel conflict between what you do in your "real" life as opposed to what your faith dictates. For example, are any Christians out there torn about whether or not to listen to Slayer, Iron Maiden, or other bands who use Satanic imagery?

Kent

I remember when I was in the 5th or 6th grade, one day during recess a few kids were listening to KISS albums in the library. I went home and told my parents and they gave me the whipping of a lifetime. Even tho I am a "christian", I don't feel listening to certain music is bad. I'm not going to tell anyone they are going to hell for listening to slayer!

[Punkinhead]

5. I was really still curious if any of you feel conflict between what you do in your "real" life as opposed to what your faith dictates. For example, are any Christians out there torn about whether or not to listen to Slayer, Iron Maiden, or other bands who use Satanic imagery?

Keep the conversation coming, friends!

Kent

Most of the satanic imagery in it's truest meaning has nothing to with satan at all. Alot of it stems from paganism and other religious happenings. The upside down cross is not truthfully anti-religious. St. Peter was crucified on an upside down cross because of the way he felt after denying Christ. And I really think that alot of the "satanic" imagery that belongs to Paganism has more to do with the Catholic war against the Pagans. Sort of a propaganda "it's not our side, thus it's against our God, thus it is the work of satan" type of teaching. IMO that is a possible way that pentagrams went from having your belief in the air for an upward one and in the earth for a downward one to the satanic symbols of today.

Really, to me, any symbol is up to my ideals and beliefs about it. And most of it is just image, so I know personally, I don't care if it's kicking my ass musically.

[Bert|Evil]

5. I was really still curious if any of you feel conflict between what you do in your "real" life as opposed to what your faith dictates. For example, are any Christians out there torn about whether or not to listen to Slayer, Iron Maiden, or other bands who use Satanic imagery?

Kent

Although I've found Catholicism to be confusing, it never stopped me from listening to a fine Slayer album. In fact, I was growing up during the Satan in metal scare (Geraldo and/or PMRC, anyone?) at a very young age, and I got some of my posters ripped down and tapes destroyed.

Is it ironic that I still listen to that music and that I still consider myself to be a Catholic by default?