Views on Christianity

[grimmbass]

We see a lot of debate in this forum on everything from politics to sexuality to morality. As a whole, musicians tend to be a pretty open-minded group.

A question for you all: What are your personal views on spirituality and organized religion? Does your faith ever conflict with your formal religion and/or your lifestyle? An example: I know extremely conservative guys with wild-ass tattoos who still believe in things like literal interpretation of the Bible...that has to be hard to reconcile at some level.

Anybody willing to share?

[JeffLeeper]

That's a tough one. These days it's easy to interpret religoin to suit your own needs , but honestly that's not the way its supposed to be done.

I think it's important to respect others' religions , even if we disagree with them. I have a strong faith , especially after the things I've been through this last year...house burning...almost losing my wife of 23 years to both a flood and a fire...and then seeing my neighbors and all the rockpagers...especially Rob Carolis...come to my aid.

Amazing. There's obviously something out there bigger than us. God's for real.....but judging someone else's values or religion ?

That's up to the Big Guy , not me.

[Imgrimm01]

Grimmbass please read the post below and notice the date it was generated. I believe in my higher power and I worship (in my own way ) daily BUT as you can see below I do NOT believe this is a literal document and I DO NOT believe in organized religion !!!


Posted: Friday Apr 22, 2005


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Good I'm glad to see you're coming around. Look the thing is this the Bible is NOT to be taken literally! I mean come on if we take it literally we are all in trouble, Anyone who speaks out against his parents should be put to death... Thou shall not kill.... contridiction.... anyone who lye in the same bed with an unpure woman ( menstruating ) put to death .... 95% of ALL humans ... dead because they didn't sleep on the couch when their wives had their periods???? Come on ! I respect your beliefs and your religion but I also know you and you are a SMART GUY too smart to think that the bible is to be taken literally word for word. I gave only a few examples but it is FULL of contridictions and statements just like those, ( Gays put to death ?? ) ( Love Thy Neighbor ) Turn the other cheek .. what unless they are gay ?? I don't get it ... My brain is burning.

[JeffLeeper]

Actually , a lot of the bible is to be taken literally....but a lot of it isn't translated literally.

There is no commandment that says " Thou Shalt Not Kill"

The literal translation is " Thou Shalt Not Commit Murder."...and that's where a lot of misconceptions come from....translation.

There were reasons for many of the laws back then...pork caused disease....don't eat it...that sort of thing....once again , translation. This is a subject I like to discuss , as not only am I a Christain , but a history buff.

[redawg]

Jesus Christ why don't you come save my life now. Open my eyes, blind me with your light now. Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow. Let me lay my holy, hand upon you. I have so many questions about this. So many things I don't understand. If you have been through alot of bad/sad shit in your life (like I have), you can't help but ask "How could you do this/let this happen to me, what have I done wrong god to deserve this"? "Praise the one who let you broken down and paralyzed?". It's hard to have faith in anything. I still try to. I believe if you truely are a good/smart person, you don't need religion to tell you not to kill or hurt another human being. You don't need the bible to tell you to not steal from another person, if you are smart, you just know better. I am REALLY drunk by the way. We have a bunch of religions and churches. What will happen on judgement day? Are we gonna find out if we "picked the wrong religion" or not? I don't know what to believe in at all. My three favorite words on this subject "I DON"T KNOW".

[facingwest]

Jesus Christ why don't you come save my life now. Open my eyes, blind me with your light now. Deaf and blind and dumb and born to follow. Let me lay my holy, hand upon you. I have so many questions about this. So many things I don't understand. If you have been through alot of bad/sad shit in your life (like I have), you can't help but ask "How could you do this/let this happen to me, what have I done wrong god to deserve this"? "Praise the one who let you broken down and paralyzed?". It's hard to have faith in anything. I still try to. I believe if you truely are a good/smart person, you don't need religion to tell you not to kill or hurt another human being. You don't need the bible to tell you to not steal from another person, if you are smart, you just know better. I am REALLY drunk by the way. We have a bunch of religions and churches. What will happen on judgement day? Are we gonna find out if we "picked the wrong religion" or not? I don't know what to believe in at all. My three favorite words on this subject "I DON"T KNOW".

Damn, 30 years of my life and I didn't know this.

I don't know if you remeber the story or not....Remember the time when you were a kid and had worms? Mom prayed and within that hour, your worms were gone. Remember the time when Brown's Apartments burned to the ground and we were left with nothing? Another time mom prayed and (this is going to sound weird) went to bingo and won enough money to turn the power on in our apartment? Jesus is alive within us. I don't believe in how churches are ran, but I believe in the Almighty and the testimony with all of my heart. I've seen plenty of miracles in my day and thank God for always watching over me.

I am a very struggling Christian that plays in bars and drinks some....has lustful thoughts...etc... I'm not perfect, nor claim to be, but there's only One person that was, is, and will always be.

The problem most Christians have today is they like to point a finger at someone else judging them (including other religions), rather than looking at themselves and their own individual sins. On judgement day, there's only going to be one one book that tells your fate. Joe Blow from Nanty Glo won't be there for that day.

Something that everyone overlooks is that we are saved by grace and no one can take that from any of us. If a murderer or what ever on death row asks Jesus in his heart, asks for forgiveness, believes that Jesus Christ is our saviour, and turns from all sin will be welcome in the house of God. I'm not preaching, just stating what I've learned through readings and experience.

God doesn't talk to me personally, but I see everything he does in my life.... every single day. I believe He shows me His ways through my conscience.

Again, I am not perfect and am struggling, but believe with everything in me that Jesus did exist and died for our sins.

In closing, NO MAN can judge another without looking in him or herself first. One man's sin can be another's blessing (This one is a catch 22)....READ about it first.

P.S. Jesus loves me more than you!! J/K

P.P.S. What scares the shit out of me here is to see dudes bend friggin forks, levitate right before your eyes, and spin cards around them perfectly just by asking the card to obey. That isn't the work of God and I really get freaked out seeing it.

[JeffLeeper]

John , you've hit upon it pretty well. Even if I'd never heard of God before , after my house burned last October....He revealed himself to me in more ways than I could ever count.....and really restored myfaith in human nature.

My neighbors....the rockpagers....everyone ....they came out of the woodwork to help me out. So much happened to me in a 2 or 3 month period that I thought I was in a bad country song....but it worked out amazingly and ultimately was worth the pain.

He's there , alright. I've seen His face in the good people He's put here.

[byndrsn]

Very interesting thread!!

I don't know if I should even post this because I really don't want to start an argument or anything.

I do find it funny that the leading post tries to tie political beliefs with religious beliefs. I don't understand that. I am very conservative (with most political issues) but at the same time, I am an atheist.

Don't get me wrong - I'm not one of these idiots out trying to get their 5 minutes of fame by complaining about prayer at football games or the 10 commandments on display in court houses. Actually I respect all of those things and I can't figure out why those other athiests care one way or the other. It is almost like they are making atheistism (or whatever) its own religion.

I find it VERY VERY funny that there are athiests out there that are writting books and trying to convert others into their non-beliefs. I think that is hysterical because if I truly believe that this is all there is, then I'll be damned if I am going to waste any of this time in this short life trying to convert someone or writting a book to tell everyone my beliefs or protesting because our money has the word "God" on it. Those people are really nuts!!!

Okay, I'm done. Please don't blast me to hard (real Christians wouldn't do that - would they??)

Urbs

[jim bagrosky]

I was born and raised Catholic. I received all the sacraments, went to church school, got married in my Catholic church, etc. Im not saying I agree with everything in the catholic faith, and I'm sure not a poster boy for christianity by any means. I'll be the first to admit, I've done a lot of stupid shit in my life.

I do however believe in the overall message that there is a higher power and that we should try to live by some kind of moral guidline. (Although I've failed in my efforts numerous times). There is a conflict between my lifestyle and my religion, and at times thats tough to deal with. I've played in a ton of bands, enjoyed every last bit of the excess and debauchery that goes with it; got tatooed up, developed a good drinking habit, one night stands, etc. (the same shit most of us on here has experienced.......right?) As i get older I'm starting to see how empty all that shit is, and what it comes down to is what kind of person you are. No matter where my morals stood on any particular day I always tried to treat (most) people as good as I could.

I just think its hard to find a balance in life when you're an entertainer....it's always one extreme to the next. Chris Farley went to church every Sunday, donated thousands of dollars to charity, helped sick kids, etc and then went out at night, did mountains of blow, drank like a fish and partied with hooker's til the sun came up. He died with rosary beeds in his hands.

Where the hell am I going here? I dont know what point I'm even trying to make here. I thought about just deleting this sensless post but fuck it. I think if anything, the lifestyle that a lot of us on here live (or have lived)doesnt really match up with christianity no matter how hard you try.

All this typing and I didnt even make a fucking point. Wow, the more I think about it the more I get confused. Kinda reminds me of that new Madball song "between heaven and hell".

[byndrsn]

All this typing and I didnt even make a fucking point. Wow, the more I think about it the more I get confused. Kinda reminds me of that new Madball song "between heaven and hell".

No, I think you made several good points.

[red]

My father and mother are both ordained ministers. I grew up in church, on the mission field in Guatemala, and in the car traveling around the US preaching. The only ponit I'd like to make is this..
The cool thing about God is that when he created us he gave us a brain big enough to decide if he even exists or not.

[SavageHeart]

red, I second that!!! I think that is all that really needs said, however....

I believe that we are all blessed. It is just a matter of what we choose to focus on. A great song by Lillian Axe.....Misery Loves Company. Miserable people love it when others are miserable because it makes them feel less lonely and better about their own situation. It is very easy to get caught up in the terrible things that happen in the world, but there are miracles that occur every day and we often overlook many of them because we are too busy feeling sorry for ourselves. Through every awful experience I have had, I have not only perservered but have grown and experienced joy on the other end. I believe that everything happens for a reason. We may not ever find out what that reason is but I believe that it is there.

[Punkinhead]

In my mind:

Faith is believing in something like a higher power.
Religion is brainwashing.

I have never bought into the whole scare you of hell so you'll follow our guidelines philosophy. I do, however, agree in being a good person. I think that in the end you get judged on who you are and alot of times what happens to you is dictated by what kind of person you are (kind of a karma thing I guess). To me, God would care more if I am a good person than if I am one of those people who go to church and follow their rules and then goes home and beats his wife.

[lonewolf]

Is this thread about organized religion in general or Christianity in particular?

[bassist4life2004]

In my mind:

Faith is believing in something like a higher power.
Religion is brainwashing.

That sums up my beliefs as well man, well put.

Its difficult for me to believe in any organized for the simple facts that, A: there are so many different religions, who's to say which one is correct. B: All organized religion does (in my eyes) is start wars that never end, and never will end. C: as posted before, the bible is one massive contradiction compressed onto paper and bound in leather. And i dont think that a real god would give you an ultimatum like Believe only in me or you shall be cast into the 7th circle of hell. I used to be a firm protestant when i was younger, but as i grew up and started listening to music, that really had an effect on the way i view things.

[songsmith]

I'm something of a secular humanist/scientist. I'm okay with no afterlife, no reward or punishment for this life, because I'd rather live life today, and I'm not afraid of it ending. I believe there's a perfectly sensible explanation for everything, even if we don't currently know that explanation, I'm okay with not knowing. I believe that good and evil exist in the human heart, not in the sky or underground. I believe that a truly higher power wouldn't need my money, wouldn't allow suffering, and would have simply turned the Tree Of The Knowedge Of Good And Evil into the Tree Of Everybody Live In Innocence.
Please do not infer this as an attack on Christianity or any other religion. You do your thing. I am not the master of your heart, only you are. I also recognize the good that religion has wrought, feeding people, giving hope, providing structure that humankind needs... it just ain't for me.--->JMS

[red]

The thing that I don't like about organized religion (BIBLE BASED RELIGIONS) is that they all claim to beileve in the bible, but only certain parts. Each sect (Baptist, Catholic, Lutheren, whatever) takes a small section of "The Book" and they base their whole religion on it. They think they are right and everyone else is wrong. They don't believe the "whole" book. If they did there wouldn't be 15 different versions of "christians".
Sorry for rambling, this is a subject I hold close.

[ToonaRockGuy]

This is kind of a sore subject for me. My dad was a minister until he retired 4 years ago after 40 years in the ministry. I don't object to religion or belief in a higher power at all.

What I do object to is someone telling me what to believe. I hold true that my relationship with God is my own business and nobody elses. I don't go to church, I worship where and when I see fit. I pray when I want to pray, and I ask God for things in my own way.

I don't see any one reliegion as the "be all and end all" that they purport to be. They all have some ridiculous rules (especially the Catholic church), and I tend to find most "faithful" Christians to be very judgemental. I don't believe that we as humans have the right or the true capacity to judge, because we are flawed beings ourselves, and only God is perfect.

I'm still working out things with my dad. I've been angry with him for the better part of my life because I still feel that the church took away my identity growing up. I was never "Kevin", I was always "The Minister's Son". That's why I latched on to playing music with a deathgrip, because it allowed me to forge my own identity. I'm also still mad that the church basically took my dad away from me growing up. He was never home, always visiting people in the hospital, going to Deacon's Meetings, Board Of Trustees Meetings and on and on. He put the church first, and family second, and I just find that absolutely repulsive. I always put my family before anything. Before work, church, my playing, whatever. Family first. I kind of have a chip on my shoulder, I guess. It's funny that my mother in law says I should go get counseled....by a pastor. Yeah, that's gonna happen.

I never missed a Sunday church service in my first 18 years, and not by choice. THe only time that I've been back to church since then was when I got married. I still refuse to go. I believe what I believe, and nobody can judge me except God.

That's my .02. And I hope I didn't piss anyone off. I didn't mean to.

[red]

I was always "The Minister's Son". That's why I latched on to playing music with a deathgrip, because it allowed me to forge my own identity.

I never missed a Sunday church service in my first 18 years, and not by choice. THe only time that I've been back to church since then was when I got married. I still refuse to go. I believe what I believe, and nobody can judge me except God.

It's almost like we are identical twins!...

[Possessed]

I was so disgusted by the church I grew up in I rebeled by listening to satanic deathmetal and totally denouncing the church and being a fool about it as well. I did learn some good stuff from church but I pretty much don't even care.
I believe that organized religeon is wrong in almost every aspect. They are hippocrites and blind fools. I started questioning why the bible said this and that and the people in the church just said "Oh that's just a divine mystery" WTF!!! The bible says that you should not call any man father before me. So why do I have to call the priest "father" WTF!!! Everybody in the church judged me and told me that it was wrong to be who I truly am. I thought to myself Fuck them they sin more than I could ever hope to. Music was my savior. Rush, Sabbath, and many others taught me to question and find the truth for myself. If not for music I would have had no way to rid myself of the anger that the church and the hypocrysy within the church put inside of me.
After much searching and praying to whatever higher power exists I finally found peace and salvation in my son. When I looked into his eyes for the first time I found the meaning of life and a reason to be happy and cleansed myself of that anger that festered inside me for many years.

That's my .02 and if you don't agree. I don't care.

[Ron]

I believe that most organized religions are more concerned with furthering the religion than they are about helping their followers.

We know nothing about where we came from, why we are here, or where we are going. No living being ever has, no living being ever will.

[JayBird]

I could write for hours and pages about my thoughts and views. I'll give the simple version:

Science shoots down the religious right wingers. History will also help shoot down what the bible has written in it. I think that the bible is a creative work of a creative minded writer. Religion starts wars, asks for tax free money, and holds a ceremony every Sunday(typically) where the majority of the people are liars, cheaters, thieves (ever take a pen from work?), back stab (need that promotion more than a worker), and can not think for themselves Monday through Saturday.

Oh yeah...here's the best part. If we sin for the majority of our lives, all we have to do is ask for forgiveness and it's all better! What a better way for all the super religious people to make themselves feel better in their own minds!

My solution - just be a good person. It's that simple. If there is a heaven and you do right, I'm sure the doors will open when it's your turn. Being a good person says more to me than how many masses you've attended or how long you've been going to Sunday school or how many Hail Mary's and Our Father's you say per week.

[SavageHeart]

As for organized religion, there are many different reasons people go to church. There are many different churches. To categorize each according to what religion they are or who their higher power is would be a disservice to many great people. Just as it is wrong to group together all long hairs, punk rockers, skinheads, blacks, whites, trailer dwellers, single mothers, gay people, musicians in a band, etc....it is wrong to group together all christians, all muslims, all atheists, all agnostics, etc....

Just my opinion for what it's worth.....

[Bert|Evil]

I may be conservative, but I certainly do not endorse a literal interpretation of the Bible. For myself and most of my conservative friends, religion never really was as big of a factor as the hubbub in the last couple years would suggest.

I don’t take a literal interpretation for a lot of reasons, and here are a few:

1. Some books, such as Revelations, are cryptic and were never meant for literal interpretation.
2. The ultimate agenda really lies in the arrangement of the books. Look up the “heretic books” that were left out because Jesus’ human desires were indeed obvious (such as killing a friend over a kids game, such as baseball, and bringing him back to life).
3. A large portion of the Old Testament was borrowed from the Zoroastrian faith. Two good examples that come to mind are Adam and Eve and Jonah in the whale. They were realistically- challenged fables that entire stories were written about.

I’ve had the “privilege” of going to Catholic grade school, high school (although my inability to conform sent me elsewhere before graduation), and even graduated from a Catholic college. However, I did have the privilege to go to a public high school and other private, yet not related to any religious belief, universities. One thing that always peeved me about Catholicism is that everyone within the faith, priests to lay persons, have come up with their own belief that leaves little unity. I had one priest for a teacher in high school who was extraordinarily young to be a priest, yet his beliefs were more “fire and brimstone” than any other priest that I have ever crossed paths with. Ask one question to many, and you'll never get the same answer!

On the other hand, I have plenty of friends who were raised in the denominations, and they never question a thing! Going to church on Sunday will surely get you to heaven, and why should you question anything? Catholics tend to be confused early, which leads to them following their “tailor made” belief that they tend to keep to themselves (or so I’ve noticed). Has anyone else noticed this? Although I’ve experienced a lot and have seen a lot of dead and open ends in Catholicism, I still consider myself to be a Catholic… for whatever reason?! Maybe it is because Catholicism is more challenging in thought (i.e. confusion) than any other religion, even the Eastern ones.

If you’re looking for people with a literal interpretation of their faith, look up the Muslims and Jehovah Witnesses (who take that very cryptic book of Revelations in the most literal interpretation possible). Nevertheless, you need to take a less literal interpretation of the Bible, because that’s exactly what John, Luke, Marcion, etc. did.

On a somewhat related note… For the people that have become consumed with The DiVinci Code, please look into some of the books written or co-written by Richard Leigh (he kind of looks like Lemmy, if you need incentive). The Priory Sion didn’t even exist until 1956 in France, and it was the brainchild of a Hitleresque man. The DiVinci Code is interesting, yet it in the same way that the X Files are interesting.

[Bert|Evil]

An example: I know extremely conservative guys with wild-ass tattoos who still believe in things like literal interpretation of the Bible...that has to be hard to reconcile at some level.

OK… I now have a label: “conservative guy with wild-ass tattoos that DOESN’T have a literal interpretation of the Bible”!

Thank you!!