Another venue bites the dust thanks to PLCE - Castle Pub

[retroactive]

Hey Everyone,
Sorry to report that we will no longer be booking live music on our main stage thanks to PLCE. They gave us notice at end of 2004 about a noise violation in the pipeline from dates in October-December including New Years Eve. We took action and covered over two windows and a door in our band room. We finally had our hearing last week and they knocked us for a loudspeaker violation (noise). They also informed us that there is ANOTHER one in the pipeline from dates in Jan-March - AFTER we covered over the windows. Thanks for giving us our day in court before knocking us again. Here's the kicker,

There was no complaintant.

Our venue is downtown and only about 3 apartments are within hearing range. For 6 years we've had bands and no one ever complained. The officer just took it upon himself to initiate an investigation and give us a citation. That's his right.

At the hearing, we had no defense. They had officers there to testify that we were too loud. The measure of "too loud" is if they can hear it from outside the building. How loud is too loud? That's up to them. There is no decibel meter required, no measure of "reasonable" volume, like when the door is open. We as bar owners have no defense. The judge recommended we hold bands financially responsible for any fines. Of course, that's not right and I won't do it. How can a band turn down its drums? Can you see that, "Play softer guys, come on, please!"

What about soundproofing? Sure if it was even possible. The problem is that they can bust you for any amount of sound coming out of the bar. Can you imagine? We'd have to insulate walls, ceilings and floors with 12 inches and we could still get busted when the door opens for people to come in. The law is just unreasonable and it gives the LCE unreasonable power to bust whoever they want, whenever they want, and answer to no one about it. Shooters in Johnstown went down primarily due to noise a year ago, we're next I guess. Allen at the Pony Lounge told me they got a violation a couple of months ago as well and if any of you are familiar with that place, it opens onto a mile of parking lots, NOBODY lives anywhere near that place, AND you can't hear anything outside of that building. The agent told him that outside of his side door, on the SIDEWALK, they could hear the music and that was a violation. This is getting ridiculous.

So we'll become a DJ club and I'm sure we'll do great at that but as a band guy, it's just a shame. And what good did it do? We paid over 50,000/year to bands and entertainment last year and have since we opened in '99. I guess now we'll buy lights and DJ gear (insert sneer).

Just wanted you all to know how this thing works from our end. Sorry to all the bands I have cancel. - Dean

[tonefight]

Wow !!!!! Sorry to hear that Dean, That makes things look pretty gloomy for the music scene.
I know I recently found out a place received a fine from a night we were playing and other places have been getting hit also. Looks like someone doesn't want to see anyone have any fun.

[ASB10]

Hey Dean...I am truly sorry to hear about this. You have been a great supporter of Third Standard for almost four years, and we have played countless times on your stage (including last Saturday, so I guess that means that we're the very last for now). I knew there were some problems on Saturday as well with noise, and it is really unfortunate that these events are going to hurt the livelihood of many people, not just the bar owner and employees, but also the bands and soundmen. Thanks Dean for continuing to have live bands, and for providing a great venue for live local music. Hopefully someday we can grace the stage again at the Castle Pub, but until then, it's cool about the canceled gigs, and we wish you the very best of luck. Tyson - Third Standard

[Griff]

Wow !!!!! Sorry to hear that Dean, That makes things look pretty gloomy for the music scene.
I know I recently found out a place received a fine from a night we were playing and other places have been getting hit also. Looks like someone doesn't want to see anyone have any fun.

tony, your band is one of the most controled bands that I ever heard as far as volume. the whole picture sucks they dont want people to have fun, and they dont want people to make extra money. the sad part is there will be no place to play if it keeps up whats next bustind wedding receptions because bars dont have entertainment. the whole picture sucks

[tonefight]

tony, your band is one of the most controled bands that I ever heard as far as volume. the whole picture sucks they dont want people to have fun, and they dont want people to make extra money. the sad part is there will be no place to play if it keeps up whats next bustind wedding receptions because bars dont have entertainment. the whole picture sucks

The only way to get any better control than us is to go with electronic drums, wich it looks like it may come to, either that or we'll all be doing acoustic gigs.

[MOONDOGGY]

I don't get it!?! How can they bust a bar without having complaints?!? If it is not bothering anybody, how is it breaking the law? It boggles my mind that they can pass judgement based soley on the ears (opinions) of law officers. I can't believe that musicians and bar owners are being ruled as no-good outlaw criminals. What is there that we can do about stuff like this?

That chaps my ass in the worst way. GRRRRRRRRR

[no surrender]

tell those fascists to suk yer dik .. that's what i'd do! at some point you gotta take a stand against the tyranny!

[Ron]

Dean,
After some research, I would recommend that you and other club owners contact the Institute for Justice at http://www.ij.org

Last month the IJ won a Supreme Court case involving state LCB's in Virginia and Michigan because the states would not allow out of state wineries to import into their state. (Pa. and about 20 other states have that same law on the books). The IJ's case was based on economic liberty for the vintners and could very well apply to you and other's LCB/LCE cases.

The PLCB is basically making it illegal to have live musicians perform in a night club, since it is impossible to comply with the law. Musicians are being forced out of work as a result, and perhaps it is the musicians who have the best case against the PLCB.

I'm looking further into this and will keep communication open.

[Ron]

The only way to get any better control than us is to go with electronic drums, wich it looks like it may come to, either that or we'll all be doing acoustic gigs.

Actually you can play unmic'd drums as loud as you want. They are not a loudspeaker. It's the things like electric guitars and vocals that need to be amplified that inevitably break the law. That's part of the catch.

A bar with a pure, unamplified acoustic gig going on would win the case hands-down if they did get a citation. I know of no one doing that, and it would sound bad since things would be way out of balance.

[Banned]

Is there some kind of petition to sign or anything that could be done about future "infractions" at clubs? I, for one, don't feel like getting a real day job as I make most of my living from playing. And I pay taxes on it so that really pisses me off.

Who can we write to or what can be done in Dean's, other clubs, and us collectively as musicians/performers defense?

I'd be willing to take a petition to every show of ours if that's something that could be done.

I'm sure the officers acted within the realm of what they thought was the law, HOWEVER, I thought there was a db level that had to be present within so many feet or yards of a venue. At least that's what I heard.

Any comments or suggestions about what we can do would be greatly appreciated!!

Also, what if you had a bar full of very loud talking people that you could hear outside? Would you get fined for that? After all, noise is noise, right?

Sorry Dean and I think it is an absolute LOAD OF SH*T!!!

[Jim Price]

bugglez24 wrote:

Is there some kind of petition to sign or anything that could be done about future "infractions" at clubs?

There is a printable petition on the thread directly above this one ("Proposed Amendment Signature Petition File"). Several of us tried to organize a petition effort last year about this problem, but only a few people actually took the petitions around, and the effort died in its tracks.

Any more, I'm thinking that what Ron describes above might be the best chance to overturn this policy if it can ever be changed; get a legal case going where the PLCB law and LCE enforcement is challenged legally in court, and a decision is overturned or the existing law is proven to be unconstitutional (for lack of a better word). It would take a venue owner pissed off enough about this to want to hire legal counsel and take on the PLCB and Pennsylvania State Police LCE in court.

Any more, I'm doubtful that the petition effort would ever work, unless it became a large effort with complete statewide support, perhaps spearheaded by an A.B.A.T.E.-like organization with some clout (similar to A.B.A.T.E.'s effort in overturning the helmet law). It would take several years and a lot of concentrated, relentless effort; based on what happened when we tried the petition thing last year, I'm doubtful we could ever get everybody on the same page and muster a sustained effort.

[tonefight]

Truthfully I believe it should be a group of Club/bar owners that quit competing and get together to fight this thing.

[Big Notes]

Here we go again .....

PLCB bust, no one or any club owners with balls enough to join together and fight the man....

Get Off Our Ass People and DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT already..........

[bassist4life2004]

round up all the musicians, lets march in harrisburg.

[lonewolf]

Actually you can play unmic'd drums as loud as you want. They are not a loudspeaker. It's the things like electric guitars and vocals that need to be amplified that inevitably break the law. That's part of the catch.

A bar with a pure, unamplified acoustic gig going on would win the case hands-down if they did get a citation. I know of no one doing that, and it would sound bad since things would be way out of balance.

The law states "loudspeaker or similar device". Another vague definition that invites colorful interpretation by an LCB court. If an LCB judge wants to declare drums a "similar device", they can do that, knowing that 99% of licensees won't bother to appeal a decision.

[lonewolf]

The judge recommended we hold bands financially responsible for any fines. Of course, that's not right and I won't do it. How can a band turn down its drums? Can you see that, "Play softer guys, come on, please!"

The judge in this case is full of shit up to his eyeballs. The LCB has no jurisdiction over musicians unless they obstruct an LCE officer from doing his duty. I suppose a licensee could sue a band for damages, but any hallway lawyer could beat that case by simply pointing out that the level of sound coming out of an establishment is the owner's responsibility.

If this case was appealed out of the LCB courts and into the state apellate court system, there is a very good chance of getting it overturned and having the law stricken. The LCB "noise rule" wouldn't stand the light of day in a legitimate court.

[lonewolf]

Retroactive, does this sound familiar? If it does, you should find a civil liberties group that will defend it.

"Vague laws offend several important values: first, vague laws may trap the innocent by not providing fair warning; second, vague law impermissibly delegates basic policy matters to policemen, judges, and juries for resolution on an ad hoc and subjective basis, with attendant dangers of arbitrary and discriminatory application; and third, where a vague statute abuts on sensitive areas of basic First Amendment freedoms, it operates to inhibit the exercise of those freedoms. U.S.C.A.Const. Amends. 1, 14."

First, the phrase "can be heard outside of the licensed premises" does not provide fair warning, since it does not specify what standard of hearing is used. A licensee with poor hearing ability may judge their premises to be in compliance with the rule, while an enforcing officer with excellent hearing ability may find the premises in violation. [FN1]

Second, the same phrase impermissibly delegates basic policy matters to the enforcing officer and the subsequent judicial for resolution on a subjective basis, since they have full discretion as to what constitutes a violation. With this broad power of discretion, there are attendant dangers of arbitrary and discriminatory application. [FN2]

Third, the same phrase will inhibit the exercise of basic First Amendment freedoms, since the phrase's uncertain meanings will lead licensees to 'steer far wider of the unlawful zone'…'than if the boundaries of the forbidden areas were clearly marked'. Once found in violation, a licensee may refrain from providing entertainment altogether. This is unlawful 'prior restraint'.[FN3]

[retroactive]

Our attorney explained to us that in this kind of court, the burden of proof is not the same as a criminal court. He called it a "liability" kind of case, meaning, we have no defense. It's their word against ours and they are cops, we are not. And this kind of course has been appealed many times, but never overturned. Why? Because of a prohibitionist attitude in PA courts and fear of offending anyone. Let me tell you, if you sell alcohol, you're guilty until proven innocent.

Also, the PLCE is an entire organization dedicated to monitoring a very small market. Sure there are lots of licensees, but bars like ours that get busy, have fights occasionally and require police attention more than the local six pack shop are a constant topic of conversation with police. That's why the most visible club in any area has the most PLCE problems.

The bands we have are not too loud as far as bands go, it's not their fault. It's just the nature of sound and especially drums, and the construction of our building. And if there were neighbors that we were disturbing, I would sympathize. People have a right to peace and quiet in their homes. But no one complained and they busted us anyway. That's what I have a problem with. But that's what they can do. And that's what needs to change.

I am in contact with the PA Tavern Association. They're a pretty powerful lobby and really our only chance of doing anything about this. But I'm not the only one who has had this problem and unfortunately, we in the alcohol and live music scene are not people that politicians score points to go to war for. I don't expect much. A decibel meter requirement would be awesome because it's a hard measure.

PS - Yes they can bust a bar for the sound of people inside. One of the things that the officer actually brought up at the hearing was that from however far away, he could hear 200 people chanting "One more song! One more song!" Isn't that ironic.

[Banned]

I realize this is the PLCB, but who's next?

Maybe they'll bust high school marching bands next, or symphony orchestras?
It amazes me that people seem to forget that music is performed by
musicians! The greater majority of human beings on this planet enjoy
music. It appalls me that once again our rights to express ourselves
are being limited and/or taken away by those who obviously have no concept of what it takes to create the thing they themselves love and take for granted!
Thanks Dean for supporting the musicians in our area, and understanding
the musicians' creed that music must be performed to be heard!
Without music, the world would be a miserable place!

There has to be some leeway given in a nightclubs ability to do business
in live venue situations. Come on, cut them some slack!

[BDR]

This is bullshit. But it's uncontrollable bullshit. What more can be said? The PLCB can and will impose their will wherever and whenever the idea strikes them. We're at their mercy. Sorry to hear about this, Dean.

I'm also sorry we didn't get a chance to play "one more song" at the Castle.

r:>)

[Griff]

Is there some kind of petition to sign or anything that could be done about future "infractions" at clubs? I, for one, don't feel like getting a real day job as I make most of my living from playing. And I pay taxes on it so that really pisses me off.

I think buggles 24 said one of the key words here. "taxes" dont get me wrong I like cash as much as the next person, but the thing is most places about 80% of them that I been in pay cash , and most people dont claim it so the state goverment says hey we are not getting any tax money out of it so lets get our money onther way and that is from stupid fines for stupid laws. think about the tax money they already rape from people just from beer sales alone its crazy. I'm NOT saying the tax is the whole reason of it I'm saying it is part of it and they just want to push the small people around. Lets face it the PLCB has the people by the balls, its there play ground and there rules If all want to try to do somthing about this I will help any way I can but, somthing needs to be done, I dont know how to do it but if sombody has an Idea I will gladly help

[lonewolf]

Our attorney explained to us that in this kind of court, the burden of proof is not the same as a criminal court. He called it a "liability" kind of case, meaning, we have no defense. It's their word against ours and they are cops, we are not. And this kind of course has been appealed many times, but never overturned. Why? Because of a prohibitionist attitude in PA courts and fear of offending anyone. Let me tell you, if you sell alcohol, you're guilty until proven innocent.

Yes, that is true in PLCB court. Unfortunately, that is where the initial appeals must be made. It may take several appeals before it can get to the commonwealth appellate system and outside of the LCB kangaroo court. That is why nobody bothers fighting it. The legal route is there, its just a very expensive long and winding road. For anything to happen, it would need to go before the PA Superior court.

[lonewolf]

Retro, here's another alternative:

http://www.pacode.com/secure/data/040/c ... s5.36.html

[JayBird]

Ever feel like killing people, but you know by law that you can't...we'll that is how I feel right now towards the asshole liquor board. Those fucking idiots make SOOOO much money from taxing alcohol, yet they keep trying to close places down. Hey dipshits...without the money from taxes your jobs wouldn't be there. If every bar were to close down due to fines and violations, I wonder what kind of attitude those tools would have then. Someone would be reconsidering policies! Sorry to hear about your luck Dean and the staff at The Castle Pub.

[moxham123]

Dean,

Sorry to hear about your situation. We play at many places across eight counties and the PLCB gestapo that controls the Johnstown, Ebensburg, Altoona, Indiana area and some other places has decided that the sound violation is their latest way to generate revenue from fines and screw over the bars. Several places we play or have played in the last six months all have 100% identical stories to yours. Six of these places I know of are in the Johnstown area. Some have cancelled bands completely or you have to play with just your amps, a small PA and at a volume that is lower than the jukebox. The PLCB has also been warning bars about motorcycle noise as if the bar owners can control that; but, regardless, they are getting warnings. How can a bar make a living if they don't have entertainment to attract the people? If it was not for the bars, restaurants, etc., the PLCB would not exist. It is too bad that the bars don't have any recourse collectively to fight the PLCB one way kangaroo court system.