BMI????

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Saturday Jul 09, 2005

Who/ what is BMI ?

The owner of the bar we played last night said every day after we play he gets a call from them and they mention that we played there the previous night ?

The owner was telling the drummer this and asked if we were associated ? I didn't get any more info and its all second hand, I'm just curious as to what BMI is and what this may be about ?

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Saturday Jul 09, 2005

BMI is one of the two major publishing/music rights companies in America. The other is ASCAP. Any music that is put out on a label is usually published through either BMI or ASCAP, and those companies make sure that the artists get their royalties through sales, radio airplay, and jukebox revenues.

Bar owners usually join BMI or ASCAP if they have a jukebox in their establishment, so the artists that are on the jukebox can get paid royalties for their spins on the jukebox.

Radio stations have to pay BMI/ASCAP so the artists can get paid for radio airplay. (Interesting sidebar, that is the only reason that radio stations can use file sharing software to get music without fear of prosecution. We already pay royalty fees, so it's actually legal for a station to download music.)

I'm not sure why a BMI rep is asking about your band. Normally, they don't worry about bands playing other artists' songs, unless perhaps you've recorded a song by someone else on a CD without permission from that artist. But I don't think that's the case.

Anyhoo, more info for you at one of these 2 websites:

www.bmi.com
www.ascap.com

Hope that helps, man!!

songsmith · Post by **songsmith** » Saturday Jul 09, 2005

This cat was saber-rattling, I think. He wants folks to know he's paying attention. There are very stiff penalties for not paying licensing fees, and the BMI guy is showing how connected he is to the "scene." These guys sometimes romantically view themselves as "agents" or "enforcers" but they're generally white-collar Walter Mitty-types.
Please note that when I say stiff penalties, I mean it. I can remember in the late 80's, an ASCAP "agent" spent an entire afternoon at a table of a club in eastern PA, furiously scribbling in a notepad, then assessed the maximum fine: $250 PER SONG.
The Altoona area had a similar close call a number of years ago when somebody noticed sporting events on TV's at local clubs. Not sure whatever became of that.----->JMS

jreider · Post by **jreider** » Saturday Jul 09, 2005

we've actually been warned by club owners about doing covers in our set because of such fines. We've actually never had to pay anything and have never gotten into trouble for playing a cover here and there, but it's very possible from what I understand.

esa · Post by **esa** » Sunday Jul 10, 2005

Or..it's the body mass index police. They've seen how damn skinny you and your woman are and have offically called it a crime. ::sage nod:: I'd agree. You guys need to eat a pie. Each. With ice cream on top.

(in other words, i don't know why they'd be buggin' you guys? have lou-dawg beat them up!)

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Monday Jul 11, 2005

A friend of mine owns a club here in Johnstown. He mentioned a few years back that ASCAP was hounding him to join, or pay dues or whatever you had to do at the time. From what I understood, if the bar/club paid these fees and were members of BMI or ASCAP, there were to be no problems with jukebox playing AND any cover bands/material that were being played at that particular club. I assumed by what he said that covers played by bands were "covered" under the fees that the club paid and there was no problem.

Please correct me or enlighten me if I'm wrong as I too, am not too sure what this is all about. I've heard it mentioned numerous times. Can cover bands actually get in trouble?

Clue me in.

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Monday Jul 11, 2005

bugglez,

Technically, yes, a cover band could get in trouble, but it's so rare that it's nothing to worry about.

Here's the way it's supposed to work.

1. Famous band records song/album.
2. Band publishes song/album with BMI/ASCAP.
3. Song gets radio airplay. BMI/ASCAP get paid. Band gets paid.
4. Cover band books gig in bar who is not BMI/ASCAP member.
5. BMI/ASCAP rep gets bar to join BMI/ASCAP by collecting initial fees.
6. Cover band plays at bar, now famous band gets paid, thanks to BMI/ASCAP.

That's basically it in a nutshell.

Like I said, yeah, a cover band could get in trouble, but there's no reason for a cover band to join BMI/ASCAP or worry about and fines or fees since the organization normally goes for bars and nightclubs that have the money to fork over.

Don't sweat it, man!!

ERiC_AiXeLsyD · Post by **ERiC_AiXeLsyD** » Monday Jul 11, 2005

...I thought all songs were royalty free for public performance anytime anywhere as long as you were doing it live?

ERiC_AiXeLsyD · Post by **ERiC_AiXeLsyD** » Monday Jul 11, 2005

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broadcast_ ... corporated

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Tuesday Jul 12, 2005

Thanks ToonaRockGuy. That's what I figured. I hadn't heard anything further on this subject from years ago until now and I thought just maybe things had changed or something.

I appreciate the info!

tonefight · Post by **tonefight** » Tuesday Jul 12, 2005

They must have been calling the bar because he's not paying dues or whatever, either from the paper or the internet they must have known the band playing. I was just a little rattled that our name was mentioned and the bar owner seemed to think it was because of us.

Post by **Jim Price** » Tuesday Jul 12, 2005

A year or two ago, I tried to deliver Pennsylvania Musician to an Altoona area establishment that runs live music from time to time, only to have the owner agitatedly tell me he didn't want the papers, because he got a call from the BMI folks and thought the magazine tipped them off that he was running live music (apparently he hadn't paid the fee). (I think one band listed this establishment in their monthly ad.)

I went along on my merry way, and haven't been back in that establishment since. I figure if you're running an establishment and plan to have a jukebox or live bands/musicians playing cover material, paying the BMI/ASCAP fees is a part of that business cost. The owner of this establishment apparently didn't want to pay that cost, and was trying to run musical entertainment under BMI's radar. Not wise...

Post by **Ron** » Tuesday Jul 12, 2005

There are a lot of bars running "under the radar" as far as ASCAP/BMI/others are concerned, and a lot of bars are subscribed to one and not the others. There are many other licensing companies, but ASCAP/BMI are the main two. ASCAP and BMI represent different artists, so to legally cover all or most material, you need to be subscribed to both.

To find out if a song that your band covers is licensed by ASCAP or BMI, they have repertoire search pages.
BMI - http://repertoire.bmi.com/startpage.asp
ASCAP - http://www.ascap.com/ace/

Banned · Post by **Banned** » Tuesday Jul 12, 2005

Definately a lot of cool info---Thanks Ron.

I hope Lars Ulrich doesn't find out that some bands might be covering Metallica tunes or there could be trouble!

ERiC_AiXeLsyD · Post by **ERiC_AiXeLsyD** » Wednesday Jul 13, 2005

That is crazy. I have been totally misinformed on this subject for most of my life.

So... when GD plays Misfits, Glenn Danzig should still get a cut?

So weird.

Craven Sound · Post by **Craven Sound** » Thursday Jul 14, 2005

Body Mass Index?

esa · Post by **esa** » Thursday Jul 14, 2005

Yeah.. BMI.. how much fat your body is. It's like your height times weight times something else... showing hte percentage of fat vs muscle your body is.

Okay.. now I'm confused. Is it the bands responsibility to pay into these since they are playing the covers or is it the bars responsibility to pay since they have bands and jukeboxes that play covers? or do they both have to pay it? and why doesn't the jukebox industry have to pay it because the covers are in their rented/sold equipment... and what about the people who go out and do karaoke? I remember going to a theme park for the band trip back in highschool, and going back to the booths to record a song from Evita. I remember bitching about them changing the words to it here and there and changing the melody a bit. Why? So that it "wasn't the same song from the movie...not word for word, or note for note...so they can't get introuble or fined for copyright infringements etc".... Don't artists around here do that to their covers? Speed them up? Slow them down? Make them into music montages of three or more song melodies? Make them heavier? Turn them lighter (like wierd al does for his "polkas")?? Put their own spin on an oldie but goodie? If they did that, then shouldn't they be immune? Or am I taking this all in wrong?
::ish vary much confusidated::

ToonaRockGuy · Post by **ToonaRockGuy** » Thursday Jul 14, 2005

"Okay.. now I'm confused. Is it the bands responsibility to pay into these since they are playing the covers or is it the bars responsibility to pay since they have bands and jukeboxes that play covers?"

It's the bars. The bars contract out for help (booking bands) and so the bars are responsible. For example, if you look on the double glass doors at City Limits, you'll see that Claudio has BMI/ASCAP stickers there, showing that he's a member and pays his dues.

"and why doesn't the jukebox industry have to pay it because the covers are in their rented/sold equipment...:

Again, it's the bars that have the jukeboxes in them. A jukebox at point of manufacture has no music in it. The individual retailer/renter puts the music in, according to what the bar requests for it's own particular demographic, so again, it's the bar's responsibility.

"and what about the people who go out and do karaoke?"

Karoake companies pay royalties for permission to have the song re-recorded. It's not up to say, Stan Davis or any of the other local people, they just purchase the already-recorded tracks.

Just relax, Esa. There's no big deal for the bands or musicians. All one has to remember is that if you are doing original music that you have written, it's a good idea to join BMI/ASCAP to make sure that if you make it or your music makes it, you get paid.